Author Topic: Yet another old Dodge crew cab project (1985 W350 USAF) (Read 58699 times)

KensAuto · « **Reply #100 on:** April 11, 2015, 09:58:51 PM »

Hey Norm, can't you use a heavy duty p/s pump to power that winch? Or maybe an additional belt ran pump of some sorts? I mean, you are a farmer, and I know farmers have hydro pumps just laying around!

JR · « **Reply #101 on:** April 12, 2015, 01:57:03 AM »

Humm, offset center bolt? The dodge front is narrower than the chevy at the mounts. How far is the center bolt from the front mount?

OldKooT · « **Reply #102 on:** April 12, 2015, 12:53:49 PM »

regarding the winch....If we run the Hyd Milemarker I would most likely power it with a transfer case pto driven pump. But my intention is to use a 12K lb Ramsey wide drum pto winch I own. It's wide drum will hold 175' of 3/8 rope. It's 45lbs lighter than the Milemarker, and it's no question much more durable and with 5 forward speeds also far more versatile.

Jim.... I think in most applications the use of Chevy springs is the best approach. Your RC demonstrates that you can get great travel and decent road manners with that combination. My problem is they will provide to much lift for my intended project. I really just need to mock a few combinations up and see what I can be happy about. It may come down to me going to chevy length springs and just having Deaver build me a pair. But I wold sure like to avoid that.

Flyin6 · « **Reply #103 on:** April 12, 2015, 07:25:19 PM »

Good conversation taking place here!

Is she grinding a 14 bolt wearing a dress?

I've seen everything!

And to remind ya, Norm, I am using the 87 chevy 1 ton 52" spring in mine when I gave you the 9" measurement

June...??? OK, I'm waitin! (and I hope you can get it done!)

OldKooT · « **Reply #104 on:** April 13, 2015, 10:52:33 AM »

Don.... she's wearing a pair of those shorts she use when she ride her bike. She often wears daisy dukes, but she fears I may post a picture of them.... so well she is all modest.

So Sunday was a busy day, but I did get out to the shop after supper for a while. I decided I should disassemble the front Dana 60 and get it ready to be cleaned up. This axle came from a Ohio rust belt parts truck. I would soon regret that reality.

I couldn't get one bolt out of the king pin cap...when my 1/2" impact can't loosen something it brings cause for concern. So being concerned I heated the thing and tried again... still nothing. I then got the 3/4 impact as I was loosing any ability to care at this point. Sure enough "snap" proving yet again...I should be more patient.

Then the bottom spring plate wouldn't come off. No amount of hammering, air hammering...nothing even moved it. So.....

I fixed it!!

OldKooT · « **Reply #105 on:** April 13, 2015, 11:15:55 AM »

On the subject of Dana 60 front axles:
Since this truck is some kind of cross between a Exhibition rig and a resto-mod, the keep it simple approach is the project's theme.

To that end I have decided to avoid any modifications that can complicate repair in remote parts of the continent. My wife calls it "the tractor approach" So front axle modification will be minimal.

I think a complete rebuild of the king pins will happen. OEM Dana Spicer parts are rather durable and can be sourced most anywhere. I would like to upgrade the passenger side steering knuckle with a aftermarket version. (the high steer stresses this knuckle) But due to Dodge having a higher tie rod location than Chevy, and the fact all aftermarket knuckle are built with the Chevy tie rod location, no upgrades are available. I would rather have the ground clearance afforded by Dodges higher tie rod mounting in the big picture. I will make sure and order a ARP stud kit for the high steer arm.

So other than some 35 spline outer axles and a locker, it will be rather stock. I might work in a stouter diff cover, and some outer axle tube seals to help with water crossings.

I think I will upgrade the U bolt size as well. And I will swap the yoke from the strap style to a U-bolt style 1350 or 1410 size.

So basically a rebuild and paint and install....

OldKooT · « **Reply #106 on:** April 13, 2015, 10:08:24 PM »

Well we got to work on the truck about 3pm or so. I had started earlier this afternoon but promptly discovered that I bought the wrong media for the sandblaster. Instead of the fine grit, I acquired the medium grit Black Magic. My uber cheap HF blaster wasn't going to blast anything with that stuff. Facing a 60 mile drive one way to get the correct media, I did something I have sworn I was going to do for about 2 years or more.

I drove to town and bought the required part and pieces and replaced the original mixing valve/manifold with new and farmer improved 1/2 sized plumbing. (major upgrade) Then I took the HF deadman valve apart. I used a ball valve before the handle, and then opened up the tip retainer so it now will fit the standard buy anywhere blaster tips. This allowed me to use a 1/4 sized tip and run the larger media. My wife then commenced blasting the front axle.

The new compressor is a beast. She was able to blast with the 1/4 tip continuously and it ran it's rear off but it kept up. After about 15 minutes of blasting.....1.5 bags of media. So $8.00

Next.....

OldKooT · « **Reply #107 on:** April 13, 2015, 10:30:18 PM »

While Kay was busy blasting the front axle I grabbed my new $250 (I hate spending money) air hammer and started slicing off frame rivets.

After about 10 seconds of hammering.....

I probably have 20 rivets to remove easily for this project. what a time saver. I will need to own and use that thing for about 20 years now to not feel like I spent too much.

About this time she finished blasting and requested help removing the king pins. I told her to get the 7/8 hex socket and the 3/4 drive impact. (usually this works slick) Not on this Ohio rusted gem. After much heating, a broken Hex socket, and one bent breaker bar (the Snap On man is going to love me) I was ranting rather loudly. After threatening to just use a different axle housing my wife reminded me that just because I have extra Dana 60's isn't a good excuse to waste them.

So I appealed to my farmer idea bank and grabbed a pipe wrench...thought a bit more and grabbed a 6' section of DOM tube and the torch. After getting it very warm....we got one loose and partial victory was ours. The next one broke the pipe wrench handle. Pipe wrench #2 survived and we got the second one out as well.

next more fun stuff....

Flyin6 · « **Reply #108 on:** April 13, 2015, 10:30:58 PM »

Hey Norm

Point of order here

Who exactly is doing this build anyway??

You or Mrs?

Seems every time you post something it's your wife doing all the work!

Just sayin... ;-))

OldKooT · « **Reply #109 on:** April 13, 2015, 10:37:59 PM »

Now my wife likes shiny metal, it does "something" for her I guess. So as soon as the king pin battle was over she commenced massaging said front axle. She started with this...

and finished with this....

Since I was out of patience with the fertilizer spreader I was repairing while she tossed sparks in my hair we called it a day. Days end results......

She said she will finish the housing tomorrow and I should relax and fix the fertilizer spreader or quit being cheap and go buy a new one..... NEVER.

OldKooT · « **Reply #110 on:** April 13, 2015, 10:58:35 PM »

Well Don it's complicated. Kay likes to get dirty, she likes detail work and organizing stuff. I like to sit in a chair and watch her work. (kidding sorta)

I badly need to get some lime on my lawn and spray weeds around the buildings and the driveway. So while she does what she enjoys doing, I got the crappy job of fixing my old Lesco spreader. After 20 years it finally demanded a overhaul.

And I did remove the king pins, which I should get some kind of award for. I was one step from grabbing the porta band and turning that axle into garage art.

Flyin6 · « **Reply #111 on:** April 14, 2015, 09:26:43 AM »

Quote from: OldKooT on April 13, 2015, 10:58:35 PM

. I was one step from grabbing the porta band and turning that axle into garage art.

I always preferred explosives for things like that (that don't work!)

(My old very overused pic of the computer I had in the early days in Kandahar...
It died!

And... Really over the top work on that axle! I didn't come close to that level of "prep" on mine. If your entire truck gets that treatment, it is going to be a sight to behold!

JR · « **Reply #112 on:** April 14, 2015, 12:40:48 PM »

That is looking good. I like to take the nasty ridges off things but not usually that far! Almost a shame to paint it.

Now seeing her in Daisy Dukes blasting that would be a great pic!!

I would say the air hammer is doing its job well. Must be a monster for $250.

Did you get my email on the fan??

OldKooT · « **Reply #113 on:** April 14, 2015, 09:41:06 PM »

Tuesday update: As promised Kay arrived home from work and finished the front axle housing prep. I was out farming, so when I got home at 5pm she had moved on to using the DA on the frame. It's ready to finish priming the drivers side inside and out as of 8pm. The weather isn't supposed to be conclusive to painting but.... I will spray and pray I guess. Then we will have the frame in primer except for the ends which we still need to work on.

While she ran the DA, I grabbed the air chisel and removed all 4 rear spring hangers in about 20 minutes.

I then started some measurements on the rear frame section in preparation for researching which rear fuel tank if any, I may wedge in there.

The obvious simple answer is to just use a Ramcharger tank.... but I don't like how low they hang. Plus I really would like to have a steel tank. So the search is on....but I did notice my M37's tank is a possibility. I have a few of those tanks in stock, but they are worth a fortune so I hate to use one....but I might anyway, more on this latter.

OldKooT · « **Reply #114 on:** April 17, 2015, 10:34:07 AM »

Well the M37 tank is a bust. It would fit if I trimmed off 1/2 of an inch of the upper frame rail lip.... not happening. So the search is still on regarding the fuel tank.

I could build a box mounted, flat against the front bed wall tank from scratch. But that's going to be a bit of a process, and I am unsure I want to give up the space on a short box. I also prefer to not have the weight that high in the chassis.

We have been farming, planting about 1200acres a day for the last few days. We are rained out today, so I think I will clean the shop a bit and come up with some ideas I like for both a fuel tank, and the beginnings of reassembling the frame/axles/suspension.

If we are going to have a shot at driving this thing around the block as it were by the end of June we need to get some axle under it and start assembling the drivetrain.

Kay spent yesterday spraying some black on the front Dana 60. I haven't yet looked to see how it turned out. I will get a picture or two today latter.

BobbyB · « **Reply #115 on:** April 17, 2015, 11:40:05 AM »

Quote from: OldKooT on April 17, 2015, 10:34:07 AM

I could build a box mounted, flat against the front bed wall tank from scratch. But that's going to be a bit of a process, and I am unsure I want to give up the space on a short box. I also prefer to not have the weight that high in the chassis.

I was going to suggest a bed mounted tank, but you answered before I thought about posting.

OldKooT · « **Reply #116 on:** April 29, 2015, 10:53:45 AM »

There will be a update this evening... I am almost sure I will get something done today.
If not, I will take pictures of what I did do... just to say I updated this.

OldKooT · « **Reply #117 on:** May 11, 2015, 11:43:50 AM »

Between tornadoes, torrential field destroying rains, a child graduating in a week, and family members still in a state of stupid over my fathers death, not much has gotten done on our project.

To borrow a saying from Don the state of the shop at this moment is...stalled. But we have tell the end of June so whats the hurry?

In the down time here the topic of Dodges frame strength and movement has come up a bit in the Square D thread, as well as is the present cause for much of the stalling on our project...I will explain in the following post.

Flyin6 · « **Reply #118 on:** May 11, 2015, 12:06:45 PM »

Norm,
I'm personally nominating you as "The" old Dodge SME

Fitting that you are, well, old!

So

Make sure what ye sez is korrekt, comrade, because a lot of folks out here in one's and zero's land (more of the latter in the 'merica) are drinkin it in!

OldKooT · « **Reply #119 on:** May 11, 2015, 01:27:42 PM »

Some Dodge frame trivia first: All Dodge frames used in 72-93 trucks are of the same design concept. There are differences obviously in length, but also in frame rail height and material thickness. A few examples... the 1989-1992 W250 frames are 6" rails. While say a crew cab is 7" and also thicker material .250 in my 1985's case. Dodge played with rail size and thickness of the material depending on application and wheelbase/model. So in a easy to grasp way... the standard cab trucks have a thinner and smaller frame than say a crew cab or most club cabs. Add the shorter wheelbase of a standard cab, and the above mentioned smaller frame, you have what one could call a "weaker" frame. It will put more load on a given section of frame due to the frame being shorter. But not so fast... Dodge used the lesser diameter material and smaller rails on these...so they actually might be similar in strength because this would allow greater flex than a heavier frame in the same length...so less fatigue in the metal may result...or in the end similar durability. One may never know but a wise bet is Dodge paid someone a lot of money to figure it all out. Enter this interesting tidbit.... Dodge sold a few late 92-93 standard cab trucks with .250 7" frames... the plot thickens.

Dodge frames fail. This is not hype, it's not internet legend, it's fact. I have destroyed a half dozen at least personally. Of the 30 plus trucks I have parted out I have found probably a dozen others that had failed or were preparing to. I have also learned some very interesting patterns to these failures.....

next>>

OldKooT · « **Reply #120 on:** May 11, 2015, 01:58:23 PM »

Every single failed frame had one of the following two modifications or both....

A heavy ridged front bumper, or a ridged gooseneck hitch bolted or welded to the frame. Now I immediately argued to myself well sure man, a truck with a gooseneck hitch gets abused dragging loads all over. Problem with that perfectly logical thinking is one of those failures was a truck I owned for many years and I put the hitch on it. It pulled a gooseneck exactly one time, empty no less, in the entire time I owned it. It, and all the others with that style hitch, broke the frame in the exact same place.....One ever looks at Dodges cross member on the rear "hump" under the bed it's rather flimsy. I am thinking for good reason....more on this latter.

Trucks with large solid well built front bumpers also failed in largely the same place. A crack or in some cases a tear near the engines cradle cross member or the shock mounting area...always in that same exact area. Again.... Dodges front cross member isn't too substantial. Again more latter....

Enter the most horribly abused truck we own. The very crew cab this project consists of. And how odd is it that it has the most pristine frame I have ever seen? No cowl cracks..nothing. It has however torn and shredded many a chrome front bumper. (frame flex) it has destroyed a half dozen rear bumpers (frame flex) but the frames straight, unmolested Mopar gold... this bears some thinking about.

It's a "heavy frame" 7" tall .250 frame and crossmembers. But so are most crew cabs and I have seen some horribly torn up... what gives?

Here is my theory based on MANY old Dodge trucks, MANY miles driving them and the types of abuse I submitted them to.

I feel it's clear that you need to let Dodges frames flex. You can to some degree tie the back frame rails together at the very rear..like say a receiver hitch. This seems to work ok to a degree, but I have torn a few hitches over the years. If you build a real stout hitch, you will tear it's bolts from the frame if abused enough. By abused I mean off road twisting and use, not towing.

In the front it seems any bumper that ties left to right rails together is just fine. As long as it is of a similar thickness as the frame material it seems to just twist and life is fine. When you build a REAL stout bumper or tie the ends of the bumper back to the frame stuff starts to crack. Usually near the engine cross member/shock mounts. I have seen this on trucks that have never left the hyw, even 2x4 stuff.

Why do these trucks have issues cracking by the steering box? I wager it has to do with many factors and frame movement is not probably much of one, if the truck is stock.

Large rubber, a frame designed for a steering box that was no longer used after 1980 and many other things all factor in here. Dodge offered a box brace on some trucks and also over the counter, and it worked. Our crewcab has run crossover steering for over a decade of hard use on bad roads and not a crack in sight. I did however break two sector shafts...maybe the crews .250 frame is the difference. But I have never personally cracked a frame by the steering box. And most I have seen cracked, were on Ramchargers FWIW. A thinner yet frame than the pickups.

OldKooT · « **Reply #121 on:** May 11, 2015, 02:23:09 PM »

yet more.... I wish I still had the pictures but my sons club cab he took a before and after picture of his front frame flex with three sets of springs. The oem springs caused a nicely distorted front bumper as is normal. The lighter rate soft lift springs a small movement almost not noticeable and some stiffer springs that actually drove safely the most twist.

conclusion again... spring rates above Dodges intended rate put more load into the frame which is obviously true of any truck. But Dodges like it less than most. Maybe why basically all Dodge front springs are 1900lbs except the light duty stuff, and those all had smaller frames incidentally. What happens when you put a lift spring under a Ramcharger that has the same spring rate as a pickup? You create stress in places not equipped to deal with it. This may be why so many lifted Ramchargers have frame cracking issues. Where the same basic size frame in a half ton pickup is less prone to issues. The longer wheelbase allows more displacement of that energy.

Same thing is why Ramchargers seem to suffer the worst from cowl cracks. Or why a CTD truck will have cowl cracks more often than a gasser. It's all in how much that frame moves vs how it gets rid of the stored energy.

Ever notice a CTD Dodge front frame flex seems less pronounced when twisted than a gasser? I suggest it could be the stouter front core support in the CTD. Take the front sheet metal off a Dodge pickup and go for a drive, you will be amazed how much that sheet metal was designed to stiffen the frame.

Ok so now I have out some thoughts down in print if you will. After my nap, chicken dinner and maybe a back rub, I will share how I intend to transfer this theory to our truck....

wilsonphil · « **Reply #122 on:** May 11, 2015, 02:47:35 PM »

Hey Norm just to add and I think we covered this before but I will sum up my frame experiences. My RC had 180K when I bought it and the frame was perfect but the cowls were cracked very badly. This was a stock truck but it did have the Warn winch bumper.

The 1992 donor was a tall frame .250 it was a standard cab long bed LE package with many miles 300K I am guessing(ODO quit). It had a goose neck and a big rear bumper and bigger rear hitch, the guy I bought it from pulled a Case 580 backhoe for over 200K every day. The goose neck hitch was a homemade bolt in unit.
The rear frame was perfect, the front was cracked in the dimple area of the frame next to the steering box, but the steering brace was perfect. The cowls were perfect.

Ok back to the RC, I repaired the cracks in the cowl area and I added crossover steering, I didn’t have any issues until I drove the truck to Alaska, after that trip I found two cracks in the frame, one right behind the crossover plate and the other in the area of the passenger side of the shock bracket mount. I am not running big rubber. So I pulled the front clip and engine out boxed the frame and beefed up the crossover area but, the cowl area was cracked again so I cut out all the fatigued metal, replace it with fresh steel and tied in the cowl area into the cab, I have not had it off road to really flex the frame so I don’t know how it will do, I am planning a trip in a couple weeks and I will inspect after that trip.

I agree with what you said about putting a big heavy thick bumper in the front of the Dodges if you do hit something hard you will end up bending the frame.

OldKooT · « **Reply #123 on:** May 11, 2015, 06:07:05 PM »

Phil... Your RC is a interesting study as I know you don't abuse it but you have used it. And I am very interested to see what happens as you continue to use it. Any idea out of curiosity what your RC weighs Phil?

This next week if the weather clears it looks like I will be parting out Anvil, and at that point I will have those axles and springs and junk needing a home. I have been considering building another crew cab. Looks like I may have recently bought a Crew Cab parts truck. It remains to be seen, I haven't gotten close enough to get a good look at it with this monsoon weather. But the price is right so we shall see.

If I do buy that one it will be a daily driver build, I might mess with that frame then and experiment. I think I have one or two more 6bt Getrag/205 combos still on the shelves.

OldKooT · « **Reply #124 on:** May 11, 2015, 06:16:50 PM »

This wireless internets is neat...it even works in my barn now...just saying.

wilsonphil · « **Reply #125 on:** May 11, 2015, 06:43:44 PM »

Quote from: OldKooT on May 11, 2015, 06:07:05 PM

Phil... Your RC is a interesting study as I know you don't abuse it but you have used it. And I am very interested to see what happens as you continue to use it. Any idea out of curiosity what your RC weighs Phil?

.

I have never had it across the scale, but if I had to guess I would say in the 6k range. maybe this weekend I will run it over a scale and get a good number. Yes it will be interesting to see what happens with the frame and cowl repair. I still don't know why the frame cracked behind the boxed section for the crossover because it was a lateral crack so I am still at a loss as to why.

If this frame gives me more problems I will go to a Gen 2 frame and forget all these problems!!!

OldKooT · « **Reply #126 on:** May 11, 2015, 09:37:09 PM »

More frame stuff....

Above is the front crossmember looking from the top. Notice the way it's designed to allow frame movement. It doesn't rest against the frame and is shaped to deflect force to the front.

Same crossmember but looking in from the front...

The engine crossmember notice the positioning in the frame, the shape that's designed to flex, and the shape of the mounting area that spreads the load.

This is the steering box mount... again see the indentation. The way they are shaped again to spread load and to obviously strengthen the mounting area. But clearly designed to allow movement again the in the frame.

Clearly a relief again angled to allow movement of the frame in a twist. It resides between the engine cradle and the front cross member.

the front of the rear spring mount area. Again you can see the concept here, angled to stop work hardening. Also strengthening and random holes to displace energy. These holes are found also i the front frame rails.

Same deal here by the shackle mount....

So what does all this mean? Well it wasn't expected to be ridged, it was clearly designed with the idea that it should flex and it sure does. These are all pictures from a Crew Cab that ran 38" tires, locked axles 600 hp and crossover steering for over 100K miles of gravel roads, Alaska, Canada, Nova Scotia, Mexico and the good old Midwestern usa. It truck pulled, was jumped at the dunes, drag raced, and roamed a lot of trails off road in Colorado. It once hit a Elk, it towed a 16x80 mobile home, if it could be abused we probably did it LoL

JR · « **Reply #127 on:** May 11, 2015, 10:49:31 PM »

Now what are the chances that during Dons build someone has the same basic frame that had just been blasted clean.

I think all the holes are there for mounting something. There are so many variations and they just want to make 1 part.

Aren't they (dodge) known for cracking above the rear axle?

OldKooT · « **Reply #128 on:** May 11, 2015, 11:47:08 PM »

Before you think all I did all day was stare at my frame and ponder the engineering... I did actually accomplish some stuff.

I grabbed some 1/4" plate and ran down to the farm and tossed it into the brake and made a plate to tie the frame rails and mount springs. I intend to bolt this to a spare bare frame and see how it affects things as I twist it. If it works out as to not be a problem... then cool. If it is a problem I will copy Dodges spring mount design in the front with a few tweaks.

I also grabbed some scrap plate I had in the corner for assorted fab projects and cut it... and then I hacked off a chunk of 2" DOM 1/4 wall to mess around and build some shackle mounts. I figured I am in the mood to fab something (blame Dons bumper) so I decided may as well putz around while waiting for nicer weather.

OldKooT · « **Reply #129 on:** May 12, 2015, 08:19:51 AM »

This morning.... So I got to thinking maybe we should work on the shackle mounts today. Should not be too hard to fab a few of these up and get back to more important stuff like ordering parts and finding a missing transmission.

Take a look at this mount...

Notice the "stand off" or machined bosses in the cast piece where the rivets go through. I got to wondering while looking at this if possibly when recreating this part in a more HD version it would be a good idea to replicate these as well. I then got to wondering if they were just done that way and machined flat due to it being a cast part. Another look..

Notice the entire shackle mount is suspended from the frame, all that touches is the boss around each rivet.

I kicked a Email with pictures to a mechanical engineer friend of mine this morning and he called me and we had coffee via the phone. Turns out he feels they are designed to isolate the loading on the frame to that specific area... and he suggested I reproduce them if I am as he put it, "terminally anal"

He also suggested maybe some hardened washers of that size behind the mount would be sufficient and I maybe didn't have to go track down a machinist and have him mill the base plate of my new shackles.

So I left a voice mail with a machinist I use... ;D

JR... I do agree some of the holes in these frames are for assorted different applications. But there are actually only two applications for this frame at the time it was built. 2x4 and 4x4 crew cab short box. And if one believes some lore, this particular model a W350 4x4 actually is allegedly thicker material than the 2x4 versions. If I buy that parts 2x4 crew cab this weekend I will settle that question at that point...

because the hole patterns are different frame to frame from this frame to a similar vintage (I believe 83) W250 frame... I have to think they are holes designed for stress relief.

Here is an example of the holes in this frame on the front where the frame narrows...

notice they are of different sizes as well... I don't think this is random, and no Dodge I have ever seen has anything mounted in this location.

Flyin6 · « **Reply #130 on:** May 12, 2015, 08:38:33 AM »

Norm,

I find your curiosity thought provoking. I confess I don't ponder it as you do, to me, OK holes are in there as stress relief...Done, next subject, pass me a ham and cheese sandwich!

I recall that very odd pyramid stackup of holes in the rear "Hump" area of the frame. 8 holes each side. You may recall I just said, what the heck, and used all 8 of them for my upper air bag mount. No real reason I could see for them either, and if bothered me that they punched all those holes in what seemed to be a weak and stressed area. I felt I was doing good by essentially bolting in a "Truss" of sorts to giddy that area up some.

Anyway, you ponder these frames too much more and we're never going to see that truck, become a truck!

OldKooT · « **Reply #131 on:** May 12, 2015, 09:33:47 AM »

Don....rest assured, daily I get a lecture from my wife regarding this exact subject. "honey did you use the GPS to stripe the lawn again" Or yesterday...."you know your step daughter is graduating HS this weekend, we are having guests...any chance you could fill in the big hole you dug in the driveway to stop the mail man from interloping..." So yeah..... I should get something done.

But while I go about life's chores and duties... I often yearn for the freedom to just sit in my chair and think about what excitement Dodges engineers must have had when they created that frame. When they saw it for the first time go from paper to formed structural elegance. The satisfaction, the knowledge they had triumphed in creating, now would anyone appreciate their devoted efforts?

Ok really....I am just stalling because I can't find the keys for the dang thing. ;D

JR · « **Reply #132 on:** May 12, 2015, 11:51:21 AM »

Engineers getting excited over a frame?? Well maybe, but I know what you mean about getting to work. I have been researching and buying alot, time to build!!

I say just give me a pair of 4x8, 250 wall rails and and weld the rest on, maybe a bolt or 2 though.

And whats wrong with using a GPS for a lawn stripe??

Flyin6 · « **Reply #133 on:** May 12, 2015, 01:01:00 PM »

Norm,

You think too much!

wilsonphil · « **Reply #134 on:** May 12, 2015, 05:30:34 PM »

Thinking is good, one thing Norm I have not heard you talk about. Manufacturability, I can almost guarantee a lot of these holes are tooling points for the die when they are stamped and from a tooling point is easier to duplicate/mirror the holes than it is to not put them there. Some of those holes were used for many things Dodge never decided to add to the truck or to change mid model and not have to change any tooling. Also the holes could be tooling points while the frame is being put together.

I doubt, almost guarantee with the analysis back in the 70's and 80's they could not tell for sure where the stresses were in the frame to the degree you are talking about, also you are dealing with assembly line, union labor DONT think about your job and just get this thing together mentality. Also Dodge never intended for the trucks to see the abuse and length of time in service. Dodge for the most part built a truck that should be able to loaded to its max payload and be driven for 100K mils and not fail, I said in theory. You bring up good points though, one day if I have nothing better to do I will draw up a frame from the RC and run thru stress analysis and see how it dose.

OldKooT · « **Reply #135 on:** May 12, 2015, 09:02:35 PM »

Phil I think you make some good points. That said take a look at the frame under your truck you will see many oval oblong shaped holes. These are your tooling holes you mention. They were used by Dodge for ages, back into the 60's or earlier possibly. My 68 GTX has the same tooling holes in the unibody. The round drilled holes are a mystery really. They are different diameters and patterns on my frame than say a standard cab frame. And again Different than the RC frame as well. Locations, the amount of holes.... it's interesting anyway. I wonder if Dodge didn't just stress test the frames in some type of jig and "tune" as required. When they got it as good as it could get they went into production. No ones knows any more, most likely.

Regardless, I am of the belief messing with what works is not a approach I intend to take with this build. Since my only complaint with this truck the decade or so we abused it was the inability of the 500 inch engine to pass a gas pump...well I am going to remedy that with the Cummins.

Anvil is about done with it's last tank of fuel... it made 21.2mpg last tank so sometime in the net week or so I will have Anvils engine/tranny laying on the floor and this thing may go together a bit quicker. I am interested to see how the 38" rubber and 3.73's effect economy and power. But we have a long ways to go....and my daily driver needs a transfer case ASAP so that may intervene a bit. The last dyno run was apparently more than the 205 wanted to deal with.

OldKooT · « **Reply #136 on:** May 12, 2015, 09:11:46 PM »

I didn't get a lot done on the truck today. I had to fi the driveway, mow, kill some weeds, cut some branches and in general, required stuff that cramps truck building time. I did however whip up the bottom plates for my shackle mounts after supper quick so I could cay I did something on the project.

So, in my haste to get something done I wasn't paying attention and whittled those out of some left over 1/4" Ballistic target steel I had left over. *sigh

Sammconn · « **Reply #137 on:** May 12, 2015, 11:03:05 PM »

I laughed for a second there. Not at you, more with you.
On Friday I started to fab up the shackle points for my bumper.
Roughed them out, milled them much alike, and started to drill.
Got the pilot hole bored 3 bits later, shrugged that off and it wasn't until I started to bore the 1" hole that I realized I had AR plate, and I was done. Fabbed up new ones from me steel yesterday.

OldKooT · « **Reply #138 on:** May 13, 2015, 08:35:45 AM »

New development... my son said he's sure he didn't mix the AR steel with the other cut offs. So maybe today if I can see straight enough, I will attempt to bore a 2" hole through it. If I post pictures of a completed mount, then all is well. That or I will post pictures of a demolished 2" hole saw bit and him buying me a new one. LoL

I also need to find some 52" Chevy leafs so I can do some testing...I have to have some laying around somewhere.

JR · « **Reply #139 on:** May 14, 2015, 04:42:32 AM »

I think you have one of everything "someplace" ???

OldKooT · « **Reply #140 on:** May 14, 2015, 09:16:19 AM »

Quote from: JR on May 14, 2015, 04:42:32 AM

I think you have one of everything "someplace" ???

Yeah....well yesterday I didn't own a small hose clamp to fit a 3/8 transmission line that wasn't being used. That's a fact I chuckled about tell almost supper time.

My son in looking for a hose clamp says... so I found a key machine and a few thousand keys, tumblers and tools. I found a milking machine from the 1950's, I found a WW1 Bi plane prop, I found a small steam engine, and a oxen harness. Why do you own 100 or so bags of refractory cement that says US Govt Nuke on the bags? I found a entire 4'x4' crate of stainless Parker fittings...why? I found a radiator shell and grill from a 34 Plymouth, and what looks like a WW2 bomb casing, did you know you have a safe from a railroad Jesse James was too young to rob in your barn? yet no little hose clamps, geeeze Dad.

I told him that its clear I don't own one of everything not even close.... and when he goes to town to buy an entire box, Then I will have at least 10 of those hose clamps. I kid you not, he bought an entire box and then told me to get my own LoL

KensAuto · « **Reply #141 on:** May 14, 2015, 10:23:02 AM »

Gave me an early mornin' laugh. Thanks!

Flyin6 · « **Reply #142 on:** May 14, 2015, 11:08:03 AM »

I want that prop!

OldKooT · « **Reply #143 on:** May 14, 2015, 02:51:57 PM »

Don funny story about that prop. I will have to tell you one day.... it's amusing.

My wife has plans for it, she collects/restores pin ball machines and she plans to use it as wall art above her Red Baron machine. That and I have the matching engine for it... and some other parts. I sold the two new never been skinned wings many years ago....probably should have kept those.

Speaking of junk.... We had a LOT of rain again last night, close to 5" So I had to make my drive and check on the fields, cattle and other fun stuff.

Found the gentleman on high ground relaxing.

Then I got a call a cpl old trucks I bought had arrived at the farm... so I headed over and unloaded them.

Just pick them up and drive the trailer out from under it...

Sometimes I wonder why I bother washing this...

And finally I needed some arbor plates for my press, then I remembered I had this crate of junk behind a building....

I grabbed a cpl of the thick round ones, they should work...... so the crops are ok I guess... but lots of damage from flooding. The cattle are well cattle all's well, none were floating so back to trying to get something done in the shop before someone finds me and expects I do something.

EL TATE · « **Reply #144 on:** May 14, 2015, 07:00:17 PM »

Quote from: Flyin6 on May 12, 2015, 08:38:33 AM

Norm,

I find your curiosity thought provoking. I confess I don't ponder it as you do, to me, OK holes are in there as stress relief...Done, next subject, pass me a ham and cheese sandwich!

I recall that very odd pyramid stackup of holes in the rear "Hump" area of the frame. 8 holes each side. You may recall I just said, what the heck, and used all 8 of them for my upper air bag mount. No real reason I could see for them either, and if bothered me that they punched all those holes in what seemed to be a weak and stressed area. I felt I was doing good by essentially bolting in a "Truss" of sorts to giddy that area up some.

Anyway, you ponder these frames too much more and we're never going to see that truck, become a truck!

Where's Duane in all this? They seem like kindred spirits! ;)

Nate · « **Reply #145 on:** May 14, 2015, 07:03:29 PM »

I second that motion!

wilsonphil · « **Reply #146 on:** May 14, 2015, 08:26:58 PM »

Quote from: OldKooT on May 12, 2015, 09:02:35 PM

Phil I think you make some good points. That said take a look at the frame under your truck you will see many oval oblong shaped holes. These are your tooling holes you mention. They were used by Dodge for ages, back into the 60's or earlier possibly. My 68 GTX has the same tooling holes in the unibody. The round drilled holes are a mystery really. They are different diameters and patterns on my frame than say a standard cab frame. And again Different than the RC frame as well. Locations, the amount of holes.... it's interesting anyway. I wonder if Dodge didn't just stress test the frames in some type of jig and "tune" as required. When they got it as good as it could get they went into production. No ones knows any more, most likely.

If you look at the smaller holes they all looked punched to me, I would assume this was done while the frame rails are still flat. Agree the larger holes are problebly tooling holes or could be shipping tie down points or both. A good example is Don's truck his prop valve is bolted to the frame but when Dodge went to rear ABS they moved the prop valve up next to the MC but they left the holes there were the old prop valve was bolted too. I know this is a small example but look at why some of the holes were put in the frame, one of your pictures show where they drilled a hole to install a line clamp so they must of known were they could get away with it. One other thing to add I know the body is supposed to stiffen the frame up and I agree with that but one other place my RC had crack problems was the drivers side floor, I had terrible cracks but for the life of me cannot find a reason why the floor cracked the way it did. I do believe that dodge really cheapened the sheetmetal up in 1986, in the fact it was thinner gauge and I don't think it was domestically sourced.

I would imagine that at some point Dodge did build a jig and do some basic frame twisting but I don't think any of the big three cared about longevity in the era our trucks were built. it would be interesting to talk to some of the assembly line guys that worked the truck line or the Engineers that worked on the structural side of the trucks.

Flyin6 · « **Reply #147 on:** May 14, 2015, 10:33:22 PM »

Weatherman here says you're gonna get nuked again tonight.

I hope you guys don't get all buggered up by the weather!

Pity about the prop, and engine...seems an aviator should be takin' care of that!

OldKooT · « **Reply #148 on:** May 14, 2015, 11:12:12 PM »

The weather is what it is..... accept, cope, regroup, and then try harder. We have spent 1000's of hours moving dirt to redirect water. In the end we have lost some crops, but only in the areas we were aware we would if this happened. I can replant those areas yet if it looks to be a smart move, time will tell.

The cattle worry me more. They are on the wrong side of the river and only have about a weeks worth of grass. If the water lowers/slows I can swim them back across... if not...well, see the above action plan of we will figure it out at that point.

I spent a hour after supper cleaning up that old drill press I scored at that auction a while back. A pair of belts and some elbow grease and it works like new. So now I can redirect the old mini drill press to Mini drill press jobs. So life's good. :)

JR · « **Reply #149 on:** May 15, 2015, 01:27:26 AM »

Norm, you have plenty of hose clamps, all used.