Gun Control

[TexasRedNeck]

The assertion that "There are already over 20,000 gun regulations on the books and they don’t work.” is flawed

What the proponents of this argument fail to grasp is that 20,000 gun regulations are absolutely useless if those laws are either too weak, easy to circumvent, or just not enforced.

In reality, there aren’t actually 20,000 gun laws on the books in the United States federal and state codes; the true number is debatable (is a gun law a regulatory law, tax law, insurance law, etc.), but it is less than 1,000. The inflation of the gun law numbers in this talking point is due to its proponents estimating the number of local gun laws and adding that number onto the major state and federal codes. Despite the over-inflation in the number of gun laws estimated by gun-enthusiasts, the fact remains that there are numerous gun laws on the books in the United States—for the purposes of arguing this talking point on its ideals, I will stipulate to the fact that hundreds of gun laws are currently in existence.

Unfortunately, the gun laws on the books in the United States are often inadequate and are rife with enough loopholes to make them ineffective. A law with significant loopholes or work-arounds is functionally ineffective and the simple fact that it is on the books is irrelevant. When talking about laws, it is not the sheer number of laws that matter, but their strength comprehensive nature, and lack of loopholes.

For example: There are gun laws on the books in some states that pertain to mandatory background checks and that ban felons from owning firearms. Despite these laws, the “gun show loophole” allows people in these states to circumvent the gun laws by buying from unregistered sellers. It doesn’t matter if there are a million laws banning firearms sales to felons in states with the gun show loophole, as these felons can circumvent all of them by simply buying their weapons from gun shows.

When confronted by people who promote this argument, my basic response is to propose eliminating all of these gun laws in favor of one gun law that actually works. If a single strong and comprehensive gun law could be passed through the federal legislature, we could massively reduce the number of laws on the books while making gun laws stronger. The supremacy of federal laws over state and local laws would extend the extremely powerful federal gun law over all of the others and render them moot. As of yet, no gun enthusiast that I have talked to has accepted this suggestion, as they understand just how ridiculous their argument is.

Ultimately, those who promote this argument are just illustrating the need for federal action on the gun problem in the United States. A solution based in passing hundreds of state laws is ineffective, as many state political organizations will never pass any sane gun laws. The federal government needs to pass one or two piece of legislation regulating guns, thus consolidating sane gun laws into a federal regulatory regime; these new regulations can be extended across every state uniformly and would be able to close many of the legislative loopholes that currently facilitate the circumvention of gun regulations.

[Atkinsmatt]

Let's start by enforcing the laws currently on the books.  It is possible but the political will is not there.  It is far easier for the Democrats to tell people that we need new laws (which will be unfunded mandates for the states) than it is to budget for the resources to enforce them.

Here is an article with a list of punishments that are on the books.  If it was enforced by the soft on crimes types, these laws would be effective, both as punishment and a deterrent.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/19990728/federal-penalties-for-firearms-misuse

Joe Biden said that they don't have the time or money to enforce the existing laws.  Why make more unenforceable laws.

There is no "Gun Show Loophole".  That is a catchy, rally the troops, sound bite.  The truth is that any private individual can sell their gun to someone else without a check.  Any gun sold by a dealer at a gun show is treated just like it is at the place of business, with a background check.  The catchy phrase is used by the anti-gun folks as the number of private citizens that wish to legally sell a gun is often concentrated at a gun show location.  That doesn't make it illegal or a loophole. 

Again, Budget to enforce the existing laws and lets check the improvement before waste time making speeches about the need for more laws and going to conference and making laws that won't be enforced either.

[JR]

Enforcement is the key, that is for sure.

On the number of laws, I would say there are well north of 20k firearm laws in the US. When searching I could not find an answer. But they say they don't include overlapping or fed vs state vs local. A law or regulation is what it is, repeated or not.

Just in Ca it is daunting to even try to count them, then pile on the fed law, then add exceptions.

[Husker991]

I've had an absolute riot reading through this exchange. Having met Redneck and enjoyed great conversations like this one over a few beverages, I knew where he stood on this topic. I was however wondering where all this information was coming from. I'm glad you came clean and put my mind at ease.

Great job all of you standing up for our rights and articulating the facts. I have been meaning to do some more research on England and their rash of knife killings since the guns are scarce. I've read a few short articles that the police are now running campaigns begging people to stop resorting to knife violence. People are now asking if this means that their steak knives are next for banishment.

Friends, this is a crazy mixed up world. If people truly want to kill they are going to kill. If someone truly wants to break into my house, they are going to. Thankfully, they won't have to worry about finding their way out because I'm going to be like Bob and end them being a problem to our world.

I wish I were smart enough to answer all these questions. I know this though, the guns in my safe, the guns locked by my bed and the gun I carry each day have never killed on their own. It really is time for the world to stop blaming the guns and focus on whatever personal defects some of us have. Once we identify the true problem, we can begin to help them and reduce all forms of violence.

Joe and Hilary wouldn't like that of course, but I don't like them anyway.

Keep up the great exchange gentlemen!

Jeff

[wilsonphil]

Its interesting about what people think about the Nazi's and gun control, one of the big misconceptions is the Nazi's started all the gun control in Germany the truth is the Nazi's LOOSENED gun laws but just for those people that belonged to the party.

  The real anti gun madness started after WW1 and the wonderful Treaty of Versailles, and the Germans were using it to try to control the communist party before they started to use it on everyone else.  If you want an extremely good read about gun control please read this book, the author backs up all his statements with facts from court documents, newspaper, and so on.  A very well researched book

Gun Control in the Third Reich: Disarming the Jews and "Enemies of the State  this can be bought on Amazon.

 Its very scary and amazing how humans always repeat history, the powers in Germany were making the same arguments then as wacko left are making now, almost page for page.

[TexasRedNeck]

Ok, i have to go back to my pro 2A self.  You guys are good.

Occam's Razor says In essense: Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.

The government cannot enforce the current laws, and therefore is unable to secure our safety
Criminals are already operating outside the law, so new laws will not impact them
Other countries laws are also ineffective (e.g. Australia 59% reduction should have been 100%)
History proves that controlling the media and access to weapons are the requirements to a tryannical government

So here is an interesting article:  Austrians are clamoring for weapons to protect themselves from the Muslim refugees.
http://www.wnd.com/2015/10/islamic-invasion-pulls-trigger-europeans-scramble-for-guns/

[cruizng]

Welcome back Pro 2A RN...  ;D

[Flyin6]

Whew!

Good to have you back

I was concerned

Had my finger poised on the well worn "You're fired" button!

[cudakidd53]

Ok, i have to go back to my pro 2A self.  You guys are good.

Occam's Razor says In essense: Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.

The government cannot enforce the current laws, and therefore is unable to secure our safety
Criminals are already operating outside the law, so new laws will not impact them
Other countries laws are also ineffective (e.g. Australia 59% reduction should have been 100%)
History proves that controlling the media and access to weapons are the requirements to a tryannical government

So here is an interesting article:  Austrians are clamoring for weapons to protect themselves from the Muslim refugees.
http://www.wnd.com/2015/10/islamic-invasion-pulls-trigger-europeans-scramble-for-guns/

I propose that they start eating more pork, raising pigs at home, and bury fetal pigs on every vacant lot they find, to keep the musloids in check!  Make all soup kitchens pork only facilities and require Christian Prayer before each meal.  Place all refugee camps along salt marshes and sponsor learn to swim classes off the Great Barrier Reef during shark mating seasons.  Every day, during one of the multiple musloid prayers, blast Christian Anthems to drown out the wailing of some mulla with their toes caught in a trap.  Crocodile Dundee should be played nightly, with Arabic subtitles along with Quigley Down Under.

[JR]

Ok, i have to go back to my pro 2A self.  You guys are good.

Running out of real ammo??

I am glad not to be LEO right now, what a mess.

[halsey]

 along with Quigley Down Under.


In the 90's I was a member of a range east of Denver. A bunch of the guys shot black powder cartridge rifles, Sharps, Hepburns etc. You could watch those big lead bullets in flight as they arrived at targets out to 500 yds. That was some fun shooting!

[KensAuto]

So, how do you really feel mike? lol


...just watched Quigley last weekend. Classic.

[TexasRedNeck]

"I said, I didnt have a use for a pistol, NOT that I didn't know how to use one...."

[JR]

I love Quigley Down Under, Silverado and Wyatt Earp (1994 with Costner)

 

[TexasRedNeck]

Gun Control Facts: Existing Gun Laws Would Reduce Crime, But These Are Not Enforced
http://mic.com/articles/22802/gun-control-facts-existing-gun-laws-would-reduce-crime-but-these-are-not-enforced

The Obama administration has failed in gun control because it has failed to enforce existing gun laws.

In 2007, candidate Barack Obama said, "We know what to do. We've got to enforce the gun laws that are on the books." He also alluded to cracking down on straw man purchasers and "unscrupulous gun dealers." He continued to reiterate this view on the campaign trail in 2008, including calls for stronger background checks.

When President Obama addressed the people of Newtown, he asked, "can we honestly say that we're doing enough?" and answered, "If we're honest with ourselves, the answer's no. We're not doing enough," adding, "surely we can do better than this ... if there's even one step we can take to save another [life] … then surely we have an obligation to try."

But President Obama has apparently forgotten the words of candidate Obama. President Obama would have to look no further than a mirror to see who is responsible for not doing "better than this." Strong enforcement of existing gun laws has not been a priority. CNN's John Avlon writes, "before the Newtown shootings, the Obama administration had not made enforcement of existing guns laws a political or policy priority" and cites Arkadi Gerney, an adviser to New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg on illegal guns from 2006-11 who said, "during the Clinton administration there were efforts to fully enforce the gun laws we have."

Failing to fund NICS

During the Obama administration, Congress has failed to provide the necessary funding for the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). NICS is the database checked during gun purchases to ensure individuals with criminal records & mental illness aren't allowed to purchase guns. In 2007, Congress passed the NICS Improvement Amendments Act, which created incentives for states to improve the reporting of mental health information into background check system. Yet many states have made little or no progress reporting largely because Congress failed to follow through with funding, granting just 5.3% of the total authorized amount from FY 2009 through FY 2011

NICS Funding FY 2009, 2010, 2011

Ensuring, for example, that NICS has the mental health data that includes documentation of whether an individual has been involuntarily committed, has strong bipartisan support. Yet state reporting of such data has a long way to go; 19 states have provided fewer than 100 records of individuals disqualified on mental health grounds since the implementation of NICS in the early 1990s. This should be a "no-brainer." A poll released in January 2010 showed 90% of gun owners’ support addressing such gaps. This is a prime example of not enforcing the existing laws, which candidate Obama said we need to do. This is where the administration is failing to "do enough."

Prosecute people who falsify background check information
The Obama Administration Justice Department is also not strongly enforcing prosecutions of people who falsify information on their gun background checks. The FBI reported 71,000 instances of people lying on their background checks to buy guns in 2009. But the Justice Department prosecuted a mere 77 cases, or a fraction of 1%.

There's no good reason to not enforce this law and prosecute violators. This also has strong support, with 99% of non-NRA member gun owners and 95% of NRA members expressing support for punishing traffickers to the full extent of the law. This is another area where the Obama Administration can "do better."

The irony is that gun rights advocates have argued for years that it's not that more gun laws are needed, but that the existing laws need to be better enforced. Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.) said, "gun-rights activists [have] been saying for years and years [that] the existing laws should be enforced more effectively and proactively." In line with that, the NRA backed the 2007 NICS Improvement Amendments Act that President Bush signed into law.

Straw Man purchases & Illegal gun trafficking
Another area the Obama administration could enforce existing laws is prosecuting straw man purchases and illegal gun trafficking. The FBI states gangs engage in illegal guns trafficking (as well as narcotics). The ATF defines straw man as using another person to acquire a firearm specifically when the end user is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. "That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms." The straw purchaser violates federal law by making false statements on Form 4473.

Enforcing these existing laws is "common sense" and should be the "common sense" measures pursued, but President Obama has failed to take action. As noted in my previous article, rifles – which include bolt-action, semi-automatic, and so-called "assault rifles" - account for roughly 350 homicides that last few reported years (2.55-2.75% of homicides). Handguns account for nearly half of all homicides, or 6,009 out of 12,996 in 2010 (46%)and 6,501 out of 13,752 in 2009 (47%). Note that when candidate Obama referenced enforcing the current laws, he mentioned both mass shootings like Virginia Tech (in which the shooter was diagnosed with mental illness, but this information was not put into NICS in a timely manner, thereby allowing the shooter to buy guns legally) and less-sensational street crime, citing children "gunned down" in Chicago.

President Obama addressing the people of Newtown said, "are we really prepared to say that we're powerless in the face of such carnage?" President Obama is not in fact powerless to make enforcement a priority. If he is serious about reducing crime, homicides and the mentally ill from obtaining weapons, then enforcement of these laws should be a priority.

[JR]

This covers it.

[TexasRedNeck]

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/425802/look-facts-gun-free-zones-john-lott

Pretty good article.  Thought I'd resurrect this since we passed open carry in Texas that went into effect this January and there are liberals wetting themselves at the thought of standing in line at the store next to someone with a weapon who is not a police officer.

[JR]

Look up the Murphy bill in the house. Covers many mental issues across state lines, dems are blocking it.

We had open carry 2 years ago, gone now.