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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #450 on: December 02, 2015, 05:29:17 PM »
So I closed that up and added a completely destroyed (Dusty) cowl panel I coated months or years ago, can't remember!
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 05:29:54 PM by Flyin6 »
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Offline stlaser

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #451 on: December 02, 2015, 06:28:36 PM »
Frustrating
Living in the remote north hoping Ken doesn’t bring H up here any time soon…..

Offline JR

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #452 on: December 02, 2015, 06:38:02 PM »
So no good with running the valves, to bad.

What did he say about the cam being off?
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #453 on: December 02, 2015, 10:58:54 PM »
So no good with running the valves, to bad.

What did he say about the cam being off?
We ran out of time basically. Had to cut off work at 1700 to get ready for church.

Will get back on it in the morrow, but plan to pull the injectors first and maybe peer down the holes.

Wayne ran into something like this once before and found the bottom of an injector broken off and laying in the piston bowl!
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #454 on: December 02, 2015, 11:57:19 PM »
If you are pulling the injectors you might as well do a compression test so you can cross that off the list.

Offline husker77c

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #455 on: December 03, 2015, 10:29:49 AM »
I really hope it's something simple we all have overlooked.  Good thing these are easy to work on.  Even pulling the head (if necessary) is only a few hour job.   

That barring tool would sure have been handy when I did my valves and governor springs


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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #456 on: December 03, 2015, 11:25:41 AM »
I really hope it's something simple we all have overlooked.  Good thing these are easy to work on.  Even pulling the head (if necessary) is only a few hour job.   

That barring tool would sure have been handy when I did my valves and governor springs


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The barring tool is a must have for a dedicated 6BT guy...I have learned!
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #457 on: December 03, 2015, 11:26:01 AM »
If you are pulling the injectors you might as well do a compression test so you can cross that off the list.
Considering that...
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Offline JR

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #458 on: December 03, 2015, 05:10:54 PM »
If you are that far with these issues, that would be a solid start.

That little tool is pricey.
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OldKooT

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #459 on: December 03, 2015, 11:13:34 PM »
Don.... did yr fella Pin Time the pump? Dial indicator....remove delivery valve and so on? An online example...https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=X_8U7QC_hpE

Reason I ask is because it sure sounds like the internal pump timing is hosed. I would assume he did this if he's experienced with 6bt's but it never hurts to ask when thinking on a problem such as yours.

Case pressure could be an issue if someone was in that pump and screwed it up. But I'd be making sure I had tipple checked the actual pumps timing, Set that, then set the engines timing.

The lack of oil to the turbo is concerning...that needs fixing asap. It's possible to get the wrong gasket behind the filter plate...if ya already solved this ignore me I have been unable to commit much time to forums but thought I'd toss some ideas yr way. You did pre lube the turbo right?

That valve lash was very tight, begs the question regarding "professionally assembled IMHO" I think I'd not assume anything is correct at that point until checked.

Good luck man, looking forward to it's maiden drive...










 

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #460 on: December 04, 2015, 09:44:04 AM »
Don.... did yr fella Pin Time the pump? Dial indicator....remove delivery valve and so on? An online example...https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=X_8U7QC_hpE

Norm,
Thanks for stopping by, was hoping for your opinion.
We used the dial indicator method. I purchased the tool kit and timed it with the dial indicator method in the DV #1 hole. We both did it so I could learn. We set the pump to .256" which equates to 16.5 degrees BTDC. Then while monitoring the dial indicator, broke loose the collet from the timing gear, then reset the engine to TDC using the pin from the pump inserted into the timing hole. Then while I was holding the barring tool underneath he torqued the pump gear to collet to 165 ft/lbs. We even cleaned the surfaces off with brake cleaner like the manual specifies.
Then just to be sure, we pulled the pin, rotated the engine backward and forward then back to TDC and pinned it, then checked and came out with exactly .256", so nothing moved. I think we did it correctly.


Reason I ask is because it sure sounds like the internal pump timing is hosed. I would assume he did this if he's experienced with 6bt's but it never hurts to ask when thinking on a problem such as yours.

Couldn't agree more...It sounds mostly like a pump timing issue, but I do believe that is correct.

Case pressure could be an issue if someone was in that pump and screwed it up. But I'd be making sure I had tipple checked the actual pumps timing, Set that, then set the engines timing.

Now, Norm, he was inside that pump. But I am not sure if he did the pump mods before when the engine was running in his nephews truck or while the engine was torn down for this rebuild??? He added the 4000 RPM gov springs and a #6 fuel plate, but who knows when that happened??? You know that round screw on the corner of the AFC cover? Well to get it off the accepted method seems to be to tap a #15 torx bit onto it, thus cutting in the "Head" which you use to remove it. Well it appears to have the pattern of a torx bit having been used on it.


The lack of oil to the turbo is concerning...that needs fixing asap.
 
Not turbo...the oil line to the back of the injection pump. The one that comes out of the "T" fitting and goes north to the injection pump, then south to the vacuum pump. Not the turbo line...Pay attention son! ;-))

It's possible to get the wrong gasket behind the filter plate...if ya already solved this ignore me I have been unable to commit much time to forums but thought I'd toss some ideas yr way. You did pre lube the turbo right?

I think I "Tossed" some 15W-40 in there!


That valve lash was very tight, begs the question regarding "professionally assembled IMHO" I think I'd not assume anything is correct at that point until checked.

That's the nightmare of everyone whoever purchased an engine which was rebuilt from someone else...Was it done right. Well to that I'll say, I sure thought so when I laid out the $3200 for it. Looking at it, the build looks good. I mean it is cleaned, has prelube on everything...when we'd break torques, they would come loose close to the specified amounts. We dissembled with a torque wrench in some instances just to check. Even the valve cover bolts all broke around 20 ft/lbs.
But we did find all the lashes on the valves to be a few thousands tight. One intake I thing took a quarter turn of the nut to bring into spec. That's not gross by any means. If I had to guess, I'd say intakes were in the .008" range and the exhausts around .015"


Good luck man, looking forward to it's maiden drive...










 
Response above^^^
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 10:07:34 AM by Flyin6 »
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Offline stlaser

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #461 on: December 04, 2015, 07:18:15 PM »
First I know nothing about these motors but I know about complicating things. With that said this is a race engine for all purposes and race anything is a PIA. Would it not be wise to replace some of these speed parts with stockish parts and get the thing running as a base line? Just a thought, was going to make some comment about CL and a big date again but figured that may put you over the edge.......... So this is me being helpful! ???
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #462 on: December 05, 2015, 11:01:15 AM »
First I know nothing about these motors but I know about complicating things. With that said this is a race engine for all purposes and race anything is a PIA. Would it not be wise to replace some of these speed parts with stockish parts and get the thing running as a base line? Just a thought, was going to make some comment about CL and a big date again but figured that may put you over the edge.......... So this is me being helpful! ???
How many times you been fired and banned?
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OldKooT

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #463 on: December 05, 2015, 11:14:40 AM »
I do agree there could be some merit to base lining the engine....but it's not at all a "race" engine. In fact other than the injection pump modifications it's almost stock. The pistons/injectors Dons using are standard issue industrial Cummins. Found on millions of boats and stand alone power plants all across the world. The Turbo is aftermarket admittedly..but that's not his problem.

In my experience Don has either a horribly defective injector (possible) Someone screwed up the pump (happens all the time)

Or... a thought, is the #1 Delivery valve in upside down? That will wash fuel to the injectors full bore. I'd double check that.

Ideally I agree on this one aspect..... it would be handy right now to have a known "good" pump to install for troubleshooting. These engines are stone simple....the only complicated part is honestly the pump. And that's not even complicated, just "fickle" I once had a irrigation motor that I replaced a tired pump on. The "rebuild" was improperly assembled and the phasing was out from the keyed pump gear. I had to try every possible position tell it ran...I think the 8th try we hit gold and it still runs today just fine.

I am looking forward to this mystery being solved. I was going to offer to UPS Don a new pump to try....until I looked this morning and realized we already installed it on a engine, and I am in fact missing the core pump even....


Offline JR

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #464 on: December 05, 2015, 11:21:50 AM »
Who do you send your pumps too Norm? Mine has over 300k on it and thinking it may need a little TLC.
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OldKooT

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #465 on: December 05, 2015, 11:53:19 AM »
I "send" them to a very unsavory character named "Jon" He is an absolute nightmare to do business with, because he's known in these parts as the "pump ghost" No one has a clue who he actually is.....LONG story.

The shop who everyone uses here because they are good at what they do is http://banghartservice.com/services/ I am unsure who does their pump rebuilds. I do know they offer decent service as they have a great reputation for quality work/sales. And they speak performance... hard to find a pull truck or drag truck that doesn't sport a Banghart decal..its like a status symbol LoL

I do it myself, or I admit defeat and I send them to the ghost. But for a mostly stock pump refresh I'd just buy a rebuild from a reputable shop/net source.

Offline stlaser

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #466 on: December 05, 2015, 12:35:56 PM »

How many times you been fired and banned?

Negative need more info, are you wanting how many times you fired & banned me or are you looking for a life total? Because if we add my wife in here that's gunna take awhile to add up. Which then opens up pre wife territory & you / Tonya have nothing on your predecessors! ;D
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Offline Wilbur

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #467 on: December 05, 2015, 07:46:05 PM »
Don I'm sorry this is giving you such frustrations. I wish I knew anything helpful about these but I dont. I hope you get to the bottom of it quick.  :-\

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #468 on: December 06, 2015, 10:22:18 PM »

How many times you been fired and banned?

Negative need more info, are you wanting how many times you fired & banned me or are you looking for a life total? Because if we add my wife in here that's gunna take awhile to add up. Which then opens up pre wife territory & you / Tonya have nothing on your predecessors! ;D
Forget it, too much to think about
Whatever your status is at the moment, just continue that, OK! ;-)
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #469 on: December 06, 2015, 10:28:10 PM »
Norm,

The guy who built this motor has been inside the pump, or so he says, but I don't know what he may have done wrong.
We're pretty sure we have the timing spot on.
Going to hook up a fuel pressure gage to the fuel line going to the Bosch pump, see what that says.
Still planning to pull the injectors, that could tell a lot.
They were not rebuilt, they were brand new Bosch Marine 370HP units which I just bolted in, nothing more. So unless something failed on one or more of them, I don't think that's my problem

As for the DV being upside down, hmmm, that's not something I would know anything about. Having pulled the DV's, I imagine you are talking about that little insert in the base of the thing? Guess I have to dig up a pic and see if what I have matches up. Be nice to find it upside down!
Norm, could the cam be off a tooth like JR suggested earlier? I wouldn't think so, but is it possible, and would that cause this smoke issue?

And why did you say the #1 DV? Why not one or all of the others?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 10:29:49 PM by Flyin6 »
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Offline DOOLEY

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #470 on: December 07, 2015, 08:38:26 AM »
DON, WE HAVE A BENCH MOUNTED HAND PUMP TO CHECK THE SPRAY PATTERN ON INJECTORS, IF YOU BRING THEM UP TUESDAY OR WEDNESDAY WE CHECK THEM FOR YOU, THE BOYS ARE AT SCHOOL TODAY.

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #471 on: December 07, 2015, 09:16:33 AM »
Don.... I would check all the delivery valves for correct assembly. That's a quick easy check and costs nothing. Same with a quick look at all your injectors just to make sure nothing is amiss. I might also as you suggested do a compression test. If nothing shows up as a problem....then assuming you have triple checked any possibility of fuel supply and return issues being amiss...

If it was my truck/problem I would likely end my frustrations immediately and do the following.

I'd remove the front cover and check that the cam timing is spot on. Making sure the letter designated on the pump and the cam gear match. This then allows you to set it to a baseline. This is a cheap check as well...just a gasket if your careful.

If at that point it doesn't start and run correctly (and unless you find something amiss it probably won't) I'd spend the $300 or so it will cost to have the pump "benched" and let someone with the right equipment adjust/check out that pump.

Not being there to look/hear it run it's tough to say....but sure looking like a possible pump issue. But you can cover all your bases methodically elsewhere and narrow it down. 


Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #472 on: December 07, 2015, 12:16:02 PM »
Don.... I would check all the delivery valves for correct assembly. That's a quick easy check and costs nothing. Same with a quick look at all your injectors just to make sure nothing is amiss. I might also as you suggested do a compression test. If nothing shows up as a problem....then assuming you have triple checked any possibility of fuel supply and return issues being amiss...

If it was my truck/problem I would likely end my frustrations immediately and do the following.

I'd remove the front cover and check that the cam timing is spot on. Making sure the letter designated on the pump and the cam gear match. This then allows you to set it to a baseline. This is a cheap check as well...just a gasket if your careful.

If at that point it doesn't start and run correctly (and unless you find something amiss it probably won't) I'd spend the $300 or so it will cost to have the pump "benched" and let someone with the right equipment adjust/check out that pump.

Not being there to look/hear it run it's tough to say....but sure looking like a possible pump issue. But you can cover all your bases methodically elsewhere and narrow it down. 


Norm,
Thanks for the recommendations, I'll be pulling the DV's and injectors this afternoon.
Wayne just read your post over my shoulder and wanted to say that when he dissembled the #1 DV to do the timing adjustment, he found some metal filings in the lower section. Having found that, I had him pull all the delivery valves and we found metal particles in the $5 valve as well.

To this I stated I had pulled that plug out of the front of the injection pump to install the Vulcan dual fuel inlet kit, and I thought the metal filings might have come from that. Frankly, I'm not sure at all, just made sense.

So off to the races we'll see what we find
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Offline JR

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #473 on: December 07, 2015, 12:32:39 PM »
Norm, He can check the cam timing with the cover on, right? (TDC to Lobe) Then just pull the front cover if something doesn't look right. Timing marks are great, but you have to pull the cover and a dial indicator is closer than a hash mark.

The pump is then timed off the cam, right? Basics first as everything else will be off from there.

I am no CTD expert, but a pig air pump is a pump.
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OldKooT

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #474 on: December 07, 2015, 01:21:42 PM »
Probably the absolute simplest method is to set the engine at TDC and pull the timing plug..if you can see the tab is centered in the hole your golden if not...it's incorrect.  I am sure if Wayne timed it they are rather sure it's correct at TDC> .... In my example I'd pull the front cover to check for the KDP being done and the gears housing bolts being doused in lock-tight. As well as a general assurance I haven't missed anything. The simplest way is to watch the #6 valves. When at TDC on the compression stroke they will both be in overlap.

The fact Wayne has had the DV's out then answers that question, they are not improperly installed. So the "metal" bits starts to beg other questions. Admittedly one spec of metal shaving in an injector can raise hell also. The mystery deepens....











Offline JR

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #475 on: December 07, 2015, 02:42:35 PM »
Metal bits and no oil?
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #476 on: December 07, 2015, 07:26:52 PM »
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #477 on: December 07, 2015, 07:29:31 PM »
So we pulled the injectors and inspected them

Mechanically, they look fine

You might notice that #2 and #4 were wet, while the others seemed to be normal, albeit a bit carboned up for only a few minutes of run time
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #478 on: December 07, 2015, 07:33:04 PM »
We replaced the stock injectors back in the holes to see if that made any difference, but It didn't really. Perhaps, it was a tad bit easier to start, but it blew smoke like a white dog and still rattled and banged about.

We attached a fuel pressure gage to the big T which splits the fuel entering the Pump into two routes, the stock one, and one from the front

With the Kennedy pumps running, both of them we were seeing about 5PSI pressure
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #479 on: December 07, 2015, 07:34:52 PM »
Then the return line started leaking, well, pouring fuel onto the floor, so I replaced the weak Chinaman clamp with a good standard American made one, and fixed that leak in a jiffy flash
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 07:37:21 PM by Flyin6 »
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #480 on: December 07, 2015, 07:39:50 PM »
I'm still fixated on that metal shavings comment.  That's post filter right?
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Offline JR

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #481 on: December 07, 2015, 07:50:23 PM »
No oil=metal rubs=metal shavings=bad

5 PSI sounds good though, they are doing the job.
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #482 on: December 07, 2015, 07:57:45 PM »
Did you compression test while you had them out of the hole?
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #483 on: December 07, 2015, 08:21:37 PM »
Next we bled the injector lines A G A I N and fired the thing up. It still ran like crap and smoked the place up A G A I N

But this time we got a read on the fuel pressure. We only had 10psi with the engine attempting to stay running. Even if I floored it it would only spool a little bit but feel like it was totally bogging down.

From what I read We need to see a bare minimum of 22psi at idle and 25-35psi fuel pressure at anything above idle. So this is obviously a big problem.

Since the pressure measurement is taken almost right at the point the 1/2" line divides into two lines, it is feasible I am seeing just half of the pressure, and that pressure is then doubled back in the injection pump case. But if the check valve was doing it's job, and there was sufficient volume, then the entire side of the fuel system north of the lift pump should be registering the requisite pressure.

So, I think I just found a bad pump, incorrect spring, something, but certainly not enough fuel pressure at the pump inlet.
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #484 on: December 07, 2015, 08:22:35 PM »
I'm still fixated on that metal shavings comment.  That's post filter right?
Yes, those metal bits were from the inside of the injection pump at the seat of the delivery valve
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Offline KensAuto

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #485 on: December 07, 2015, 08:24:29 PM »
I thought we agreed that they needed 20+ psi.?

...I wonder how long it takes to wipe out a pump with no oil.

Dunno if you remember but when it first started, it was smooth according to you, Cappo: "it started immediately. Oil pressure came right up and after a bit of rough idling it settled out to a smooth rhythm".

My opinion is, from my couch, I bet ya hurt that pump.....no oil and all. And according to Kooter, she needs close to 30psi minimum for the power you expect to produce.


I guess you posted while I spent 1/2 hour typing.........
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 08:25:10 PM by KensAuto »
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #486 on: December 07, 2015, 09:22:55 PM »
I'm leaning torward Kooter.

Pull that pump off and have it benched.  Pull the lines and the injectors and have them flushed to remove any contaminants from the metal shavings.  Solve your LP problem and put it all back together.  Run a compression test after checking timing.

It will have no choice but to run.  Or get blown up out of frustration.
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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #487 on: December 07, 2015, 10:12:59 PM »
You have the dual lift pumps, then the HP pump but still no fuel or to much.

Double check timing (TDC/cam) send the pump out and flush the rest. If they find shavings in the pump, the injectors will need to be cleaned.

The guy who was going to do my tranny closed up shop, errrrrrrr.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 05:09:05 PM by JR »
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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #488 on: December 08, 2015, 07:12:49 PM »
Ok.... hang on a sec. I may have got this wrong so if so ignore me.

You are running twin electrics with a mechanical on the engine? Can those electric pumps be pulled through? If not, it's possible/likely that could be your issue regarding fuel pressure.. 10 psi is not even close to enough. You NEED 17-22psi at idle. 25-35psi @2500rpm under no load.

Lack of fuel pressure could be causing all your problems. White smoke odd idling... no throttle response, these are all symptoms of low fuel pressure. I thought you had that issue resolved, I am sorry I didn't mention it again.

Also the overflow valve on the p pumps is a known issue....might not hurt to check/replace that. That can also result in low pressure. They move like 1.4gpm through the return line when stuck open and can lower fuel pressure.

You can't go any further trying to diagnose this issue until you fix the fuel pressure issue.


 








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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #489 on: December 08, 2015, 07:33:47 PM »
The dual lift pump are from Kennedy and can be pulled through. I run 1 on my max.

I think he upgraded the stock lift pump a few pages back to a HP unit.
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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #490 on: December 08, 2015, 08:02:11 PM »
I run OEM Cummins lift pumps on all our irrigation plants...gravity fed no less. No problem making 25psi whatsoever. Hell my daily driver VE pump is making 10psi at WOT under load. That's with a 3/8 line and a OEM fuel filter.

Don has to fix this issue first..without proper fuel pressure, the injection pump is not going to work.

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #491 on: December 08, 2015, 10:22:49 PM »
Ok.... hang on a sec. I may have got this wrong so if so ignore me.

You are running twin electrics with a mechanical on the engine? Can those electric pumps be pulled through? If not, it's possible/likely that could be your issue regarding fuel pressure.. 10 psi is not even close to enough. You NEED 17-22psi at idle. 25-35psi @2500rpm under no load.

Lack of fuel pressure could be causing all your problems. White smoke odd idling... no throttle response, these are all symptoms of low fuel pressure. I thought you had that issue resolved, I am sorry I didn't mention it again.

Also the overflow valve on the p pumps is a known issue....might not hurt to check/replace that. That can also result in low pressure. They move like 1.4gpm through the return line when stuck open and can lower fuel pressure.

You can't go any further trying to diagnose this issue until you fix the fuel pressure issue.


 








You got it right

Low fuel pressure

The two Kennedy pumps are pulling from a 1/2" line and through a fuel filter.
Remember with the engine off the I showed 5psi near the injection pump.
With the motor "Running" we showed 10psi. So the lift pump is providing some pressure increase, 5psi, but why only 5psi more?
You will recall I put the good spring in the new lift pump so I should have had all sorts of pressure, but apparently not so.
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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #492 on: December 08, 2015, 10:24:42 PM »
I run OEM Cummins lift pumps on all our irrigation plants...gravity fed no less. No problem making 25psi whatsoever. Hell my daily driver VE pump is making 10psi at WOT under load. That's with a 3/8 line and a OEM fuel filter.

Don has to fix this issue first..without proper fuel pressure, the injection pump is not going to work.
Think I should buy another new Cummins lift pump and try that?
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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #493 on: December 09, 2015, 12:19:20 AM »
Sounds like a good start. Will you have to replumb?
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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #494 on: December 09, 2015, 06:55:22 AM »
 It's not unheard of for the camshaft to be worn and the pump not work correctly. Extremely high mileage engines have been know to do that on occasion. But that would be a rare deal...

I'd temporarily plumb around your fuel pumps and filters whichever way is simple/cheap and see if you develop fuel pressure.

If you get a gain into respectable range of pressure...well ya then know it's not the mechanical pump. If this shows little to no gain...I'd start considering taking your pump off and having a look at it. They are basically simple and able to be rebuilt.

Out of curiosity, did you increase the size of the return line over OEM>?







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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #495 on: December 09, 2015, 08:11:29 AM »
Just FYI for everyone.  When my cummins was in the dodge it was all stock.  I hooked up fuel pressure, boost and EGT gauges.  I eliminated the fuel heater and running the stock set up I was getting 22psi fuel pressure at idle.  With the Ford the kid that removed the engine jacked the factory fuel filter housing all up and I couldn't use it.  I plumbed a remote filter set up that went in between the factory lift pump and the IP.  I get 30 psi at idle now. 

Just shows how restrictive the stock filter element is and shows what the factory lift pump is capable of.   

My two cents.  Get rid of the electric pumps completely.  Stock lift pump will support fuel for a whole lot of power.  The electric pumps are just not necessary unless you're building a crazy engine, sled pulling,  drag race etc and they just add complication. 


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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #496 on: December 09, 2015, 09:05:39 AM »
First thing to do is dead head a gauge right before the p pump. If the pressure is good,  put it back together and put the gauge in the return line after the party pump, dead head.  If the pressure is OK then the pump is returning too much.
That's what I would do on a customer car.
...on my vehicle I would just gently pinch the return line off while running and see if the pressure rises.

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #497 on: December 09, 2015, 09:12:55 AM »
It's not unheard of for the camshaft to be worn and the pump not work correctly. Extremely high mileage engines have been know to do that on occasion. But that would be a rare deal...

I'd temporarily plumb around your fuel pumps and filters whichever way is simple/cheap and see if you develop fuel pressure.

If you get a gain into respectable range of pressure...well ya then know it's not the mechanical pump. If this shows little to no gain...I'd start considering taking your pump off and having a look at it. They are basically simple and able to be rebuilt.

Out of curiosity, did you increase the size of the return line over OEM>?







Return line: Err, Ahh, Just did that again.
The return line from the injector harness/line is either 5/16" or 1/4". I want to say I stepped it up one size because of the long distance it has to travel back to the fuel filler neck.

Return line of the injection pump, I laid in a steel 5/16" line from the firewall to the tank with a length of either 5/16" or 3/8" Parker hose connecting the pump to the line and the end of the line to the fitting on top of the fuel tank.

So, reading between the lines here Norm, are you thinking the pumps are somehow creating a restriction?
If you're thinking that, I'd say no way. I have a 1/2" hose from the tank to the filter, then from the filter to the pumps. The pumps are set up in parallel but are easily drawn through. However, I did have both pumps on for the run time I have put on the motor. Then I have a 1/2" line to the lift pump. Mind you, that is a substantial size larger than the factory 5/16" or 3/8" lines, so I do not believe there is a lack in fuel supply.

Crazy question, in the lift pump, the spring is conical. Does the orientation of that spring matter?
This pump was one hungry diesel sold me for a VE application, which I converted by changing out the spring to the higher pressure P-Pump spring.
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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #498 on: December 09, 2015, 09:17:18 AM »
First thing to do is dead head a gauge right before the p pump. If the pressure is good,  put it back together and put the gauge in the return line after the party pump, dead head.  If the pressure is OK then the pump is returning too much.
That's what I would do on a customer car.
...on my vehicle I would just gently pinch the return line off while running and see if the pressure rises.

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I have a fuel gage there right now, but tapped into the "T" fitting. It registers 5psi with kennedy pumps only, and a mere 10 psi with the motor stumbling and filling my house with unburned diesel smoke...

I did pull off the return pressure spring and visually check it. The plunger ball worked fine, spring was intact, I just didn't see anything wrong with it (Visually)
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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #499 on: December 09, 2015, 09:18:04 AM »
Side note: This is a pretty good Cummins problem solving discussion we have going on at the moment
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