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OldKooT

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #700 on: May 04, 2016, 11:03:20 PM »
A quick general rule on a P pump. You NEED 15psi to idle pretty much. It should maintain 40-45psi at 3000rpm. The well plants we run usually idle about 25-30psi and operate at 3200rpm around 45 psi. All with a OEM piston lift pump. I have found a OEM pump will supply 500 hp easily...that said it's being gravity fed from a large fuel tank (usually 500 gallons) with a half inch line. We run a standard issue wix filter before the pump. This setup in one case pumps water right at 500hp at 3200 rpm for 24 hours at a pop during irrigation season. It's a testament to the b series Cummins as that well should have a much larger engine on it.

In other words... I can make 500hp with a 5 gallon gas can and a 1/2 feed to the lift pump. Just not for long... 5 gallons goes fast LoL




Offline swbhobie16

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #701 on: May 04, 2016, 11:10:41 PM »
I bet 3200 rpm on that sucker is screaming!! hahah.

OldKooT

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #702 on: May 04, 2016, 11:19:29 PM »
Some day if I ever get un-cheap and buy a go pro, I will video the Ramcharger's 6bt spinning 4400 rpm at 50 psi of boost. It's a symphony I tell you.

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #703 on: May 04, 2016, 11:22:47 PM »
Some day if I ever get un-cheap and buy a go pro, I will video the Ramcharger's 6bt spinning 4400 rpm at 50 psi of boost. It's a symphony I tell you.

im sure you've seen a 30L V12 cummins rattling off at 1800 rpm..

that.. is a racket lemme tell ya. like.. can't hear someone screaming next to you racket.

always fun changing fuel filters on them while they're running. hahah

Offline JR

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #704 on: May 05, 2016, 12:46:30 AM »
I drove (and built them) in my younger days with straight pipes up and down Hwy 5. Those 2 strokes were monsters!

All this time and back to the pump, but it runs!!

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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #705 on: May 05, 2016, 08:30:53 AM »
interesting.

I would have thought my '89 VE would be the same as your 5.9. but.. since it's an aftermarket upgrade from a VE to PPump style.. no telling what that stroke actually is. or if the cam lobe is the same for each..  seems to be lots of variables. I know those cummins lift pumps aren't cheap.. but getting the pump that fits your serial number might be the most solid start..?

still.. great to hear that it's running.

if you think it may be the block lift pump, can always hook the kennedys up in series, bypass the block pump and run it straight to the filter. that should produce ~ 16psi, no?
I already have the Kennedy's hooked up in series and on different circuits...Part of the survival aspect of redundant systems and all that...
The turbine Kennedy pumps only make 4 psi each or 8 psi in series. I'm seeing 10 psi so the mechanical lift pump is doing something
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #706 on: May 05, 2016, 08:36:22 AM »
There are 4 pumps of the piston variety for this application. For our purposes the only facts relative is if you have the thick spring, then you should be making around 28 psi ish at idle. The spacer is required and is there because the same piston pump is used on other Cummins series. The B series requires the spacer.

It's possible you have a bad pump, it's happened before. It's possible you have a bad relief/pressure valve on the pump, that happens also....but the reason behind eliminating the entire fuel system other than the piston lift pump is to determine if you have a issue with the piston pump or if your fuel system is the issue.

I run these engines almost daily, a can of fuel, a fuel line and a OEM lift pump, and they will perform perfectly. If yours doesn't when isolated, you know the issue is lift pump related.

On a side note... if those electric pumps are not producing the volume of fuel the lift pump needs, it will be limited to producing only whats available. A suspect issue when you see no rise in fuel pressure with RPM initially.

A further example: Patch has a high pressure lift pump and a boost referenced bypass regulator and OEM fuel lines. I just looked at the fuel pressure gauge tonight. It idles at 29 psi and makes close to 40 at 2500rpm. I have it set to run the VE at 15psi but that said... your pump should act similar. Starvation could be affecting it's output.


OK,
I'll get soaked in diesel AGAIN and see if we have a restriction
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #707 on: May 05, 2016, 08:45:49 AM »
I think I'll buy a lottery ticket. I never thought I'd see this thread alive again.

You are really close Don. I think the front springs are flat because you have a 900lb bumper on it.


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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #708 on: May 05, 2016, 08:56:06 AM »
I think I'll buy a lottery ticket. I never thought I'd see this thread alive again.

You are really close Don. I think the front springs are flat because you have a 900lb bumper on it.


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That could be it...
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OldKooT

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #709 on: May 05, 2016, 09:20:04 AM »
It's kinda surprising those springs settled that much even with a leaf removed. Gets me to wondering....it also gives me an idea.


Offline KensAuto

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #710 on: May 05, 2016, 10:36:31 AM »
I can't believe it settled that much just being parked. How much would it drop after going down a rough trail? wow
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Offline Sammconn

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #711 on: May 05, 2016, 11:09:30 AM »
I think I'll buy a lottery ticket. I never thought I'd see this thread alive again.

You are really close Don. I think the front springs are flat because you have a 9000lb bumper on it.



Fixed it for Ya!
I'm also shocked by the settling, have you put the leaf you removed back in. It's been so long I've forgotten.
I just don't want to wind up missing a digit or limb.  I can sometimes get in a hurry to get results.
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #712 on: May 05, 2016, 07:37:53 PM »
Not surprised about your spring, if you don't want sag I suggest you order a set of custom units and stop putting Indian and China made units under your truck.  I when thru that song and dance twice before I just bought custom units and have not had a problem since! 

About the fuel I second the Skoolofkool recommendation of just using a 5gallon can and just the factory lift pump

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #713 on: May 05, 2016, 08:03:01 PM »
I was playing around with it today, but darn if the batteries went nearly dead!

Man!

I have them on a trickle charger.
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #714 on: May 05, 2016, 10:37:53 PM »
Those batteries did pretty good for 6 months!!!  I think if you do the fuel can setup its going to run, let it charge all night and try it in the morning.

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #715 on: May 06, 2016, 07:34:06 AM »
Those batteries did pretty good for 6 months!!!  I think if you do the fuel can setup its going to run, let it charge all night and try it in the morning.
Sorry, but you'll have to wait just a bit

Leaving for the farm today, be down there for awhile...
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Offline JR

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #716 on: May 06, 2016, 10:30:41 AM »
Teaser,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Offline Tedram

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #717 on: May 06, 2016, 12:31:47 PM »
I think I'll buy a lottery ticket. I never thought I'd see this thread alive again.

You are really close Don. I think the front springs are flat because you have a 900lb bumper on it.


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Maybe by me bumping this thread it got the wheels turning (or at least the engine turning)...... Don, hearing that run was music to my ears..... you are getting close.
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #718 on: May 14, 2016, 03:11:23 PM »
I hope you've been out of cell range on expedition in SqD for the last week, hence the lack of update.  8)

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #719 on: May 16, 2016, 08:35:20 PM »
Well I finally pulled the fuel line and stuck it in a 5 gallon can of diesel...finally!
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #720 on: May 16, 2016, 08:36:13 PM »
I started it up and immediately filled the garage with unburned diesel white smoke!
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #721 on: May 16, 2016, 08:40:02 PM »
And here is the cause:

Note the fuel pressure is something less than 10 psi at idle. The second pic shows the pitiful pressure with me revving the motor. I can feel the fuel pump pumping, and I can see the fuel lines pulsing like an artery jumping with a heart beat. But there is just not enough pressure.

So one of two things...

The pump is not working properly,

or

the pressure control valve on the outlet side of the Bosch pump is not working properly.
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #722 on: May 16, 2016, 08:56:26 PM »
well.. that's not what I/we were hoping for. but at least you have narrowed it down by a large factor. I wonder if there is any chance the larger lines, and double supply lines are causing the issue. (I havent looked into the double feed setup enough to know.. I'm sure norm has an idea) again, just spit balling ideas. I've always seen the double supply lines on big number cummins setups.. not sub 400hp motors like I (and is guess you) are going for. nothing wild, just reliable.

either way, it's getting much much closer than it was. which is awesome.

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #723 on: May 16, 2016, 09:11:27 PM »
well.. that's not what I/we were hoping for. but at least you have narrowed it down by a large factor. I wonder if there is any chance the larger lines, and double supply lines are causing the issue. (I havent looked into the double feed setup enough to know.. I'm sure norm has an idea) again, just spit balling ideas. I've always seen the double supply lines on big number cummins setups.. not sub 400hp motors like I (and is guess you) are going for. nothing wild, just reliable.

either way, it's getting much much closer than it was. which is awesome.
I don't think the dual fuel line is causing anything. And the pressure is taken right before the split.

Oh, and this is no 400 HP mill. It will make somewhere between 600-700 HP. That is what I speced to the turbo and injector builders and what I had the pump fitted out to do. Talking to Norm, he seems to think it is a 600+ HP mill.

Now, if I ever did this again, I'd go have my head examined before making such a stout mill for this application. Nossir, I would have built a warmed up VE motor and been very happy I suspect!
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 09:13:55 PM by Flyin6 »
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #724 on: May 16, 2016, 09:44:16 PM »
I guess I was sleepin when I read what you had the engine built to do. hahah. in that case, carry on. I was thinking it was a medium built PPump for reliability. not something that could pull your entire house! hah. either way, you have at least narrowed it down to lift pump issues.. which should be easily overcome. can't wait to see a vid of it moving down the road.

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #725 on: May 16, 2016, 10:10:40 PM »
Now the next test: With the truck idling, slowly pinch off the return line coming out of the injection pump while watching the gauge. If the pressure stays the same, it's the lift pump. If it climbs, the problem is in the injection pump....takes 2 seconds to find out.
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #726 on: May 16, 2016, 10:15:14 PM »
Now the next test: With the truck idling, slowly pinch off the return line coming out of the injection pump while watching the gauge. If the pressure stays the same, it's the lift pump. If it climbs, the problem is in the injection pump....takes 2 seconds to find out.

now that.. is a rather smart individual.  8)

Offline JR

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #727 on: May 17, 2016, 12:03:22 AM »
Didn't a few guys suggest this months back?

Throw a stock pump on it see what happens,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 12:04:54 AM by JR »
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OldKooT

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #728 on: May 17, 2016, 08:58:24 AM »
Yah what Ken said..dead head that pump for just a brief moment, and lets solve this mystery.

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #729 on: May 17, 2016, 09:12:54 AM »
Now the next test: With the truck idling, slowly pinch off the return line coming out of the injection pump while watching the gauge. If the pressure stays the same, it's the lift pump. If it climbs, the problem is in the injection pump....takes 2 seconds to find out.
OK, that's next, give me a few...
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OldKooT

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #730 on: May 17, 2016, 09:45:54 AM »
I can picture Ken sitting in his office waiting wringing his hands... Stlaser is checking wine tasting schedules and sipping his morning coffee eyeing the latest UFO sighting location maps and....


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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #731 on: May 17, 2016, 09:56:56 AM »
I can picture Ken sitting in his office waiting wringing his hands... Stlaser is checking wine tasting schedules and sipping his morning coffee eyeing the latest UFO sighting location maps and....


Shawn gone rogue hippie on us ya think?
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #732 on: May 17, 2016, 09:57:24 AM »
Possible, Colorado, rocky mountain high and all that...
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Offline KensAuto

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #733 on: May 17, 2016, 10:05:44 AM »
Rogue Hippie. Bahahahahhaha
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #734 on: May 17, 2016, 10:16:49 AM »
Rogue Hippie. Bahahahahhaha
^^^ You see it happening as well!
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Offline cj7ox

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #735 on: May 17, 2016, 12:25:24 PM »
Getting closer!!!  :)
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #736 on: May 17, 2016, 07:44:33 PM »
Now the next test: With the truck idling, slowly pinch off the return line coming out of the injection pump while watching the gauge. If the pressure stays the same, it's the lift pump. If it climbs, the problem is in the injection pump....takes 2 seconds to find out.
Ken,
I did the test you outlined.
I started the thing, now getting hard to start. Idled it, then slowly pinched off the return line. There was no change in fuel pressure at all...
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #737 on: May 17, 2016, 07:45:47 PM »
Since I'm doing so much fuel pressure testing, I semi permanently mounted a fuel press gage to the intake pipe in a foam collar
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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #738 on: May 17, 2016, 07:46:50 PM »
If anyone was wondering where the fuel pressure tap was taken, here is a pic of the tap coming off the "T"
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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #739 on: May 17, 2016, 07:47:46 PM »
And here is the paltry fuel pressure both at an idle and with the return line pinched off
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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #740 on: May 17, 2016, 07:48:57 PM »
So, according to Ken's logic, I seem to have identified a faulty, albeit, new, lift pump!
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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #741 on: May 17, 2016, 08:19:50 PM »
I can picture Ken sitting in his office waiting wringing his hands... Stlaser is checking wine tasting schedules and sipping his morning coffee eyeing the latest UFO sighting location maps and....


Shawn gone rogue hippie on us ya think?

I don't know about the hippie part (they usually have long hair and well mine isn't long but it is thinning) and as far as the rogue well I did just sign up for a tactical shotgun course so maybe.........

& Norm the wine and coffee is my wife's thing, I try not to drink either.......
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 08:21:44 PM by stlaser »
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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #742 on: May 17, 2016, 08:47:22 PM »
That's pretty cut and dry...but one last thing (I promise). Pinch both of those p pump hoses at the same time. You should be able to get a reading just before it dies.
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #743 on: May 17, 2016, 08:51:29 PM »
how hard is it starting..?

mine takes about 2-3 seconds of turning over before she fires. that shorter or longer than yours?

it definitely doesn't start as quick as my VE pump. that sucker doesn't make one revolution before it comes to life..

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #744 on: May 17, 2016, 09:10:19 PM »
Ken how can you talk shop at a time like this when your girlfriend is in the fight of her life with Bernie?


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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #745 on: May 17, 2016, 09:29:54 PM »
Ouch!!!!  ;D
Living in the remote north hoping Ken doesn’t bring H up here any time soon…..

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #746 on: May 17, 2016, 09:36:10 PM »
That's pretty cut and dry...but one last thing (I promise). Pinch both of those p pump hoses at the same time. You should be able to get a reading just before it dies.
Well, Kenneth, I don't believe it will start anymore. Remember I was getting like 10psi at idle and about 17-18 while being revved? Well, now it only makes 4 psi anytime and refuses to start...

I think I have a bad lift pump, or something associated directly with it. I think I'll pull it off and disassemble it and inspect for damage.
Then off to the parts store for a new one...
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OldKooT

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #747 on: May 17, 2016, 10:04:53 PM »
Something is defiantly amiss. Ken has a good point...you'd have to pinch both lines to actually dead head the pump. That said, the falling fuel pressure is rather suspect as a lift pump failure.

So you should be running by noonish tomorrow :D




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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #748 on: May 17, 2016, 10:26:25 PM »
Something is defiantly amiss. Ken has a good point...you'd have to pinch both lines to actually dead head the pump. That said, the falling fuel pressure is rather suspect as a lift pump failure.

So you should be running by noonish tomorrow :D




So Koot, which mechanical lift pump should I be looking for?
I see that most 94-98 pumps are the same, although there are a bunch of manufacturers.

I also see that a 24 valve pump has more either pressure or flow...

Watcha think?
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OldKooT

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #749 on: May 18, 2016, 12:21:31 AM »
Whichever pump your year engine calls for....that's what I'd do.

 

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