02 Burb, Part 6, The "evolution" thread

[Flyin6]

The unit i sent you had a shift motor on it. could very well be the issue. but i would still like an up in the air w/ all 4 wheels off the ground test. 2wd/4wd check driveline free spin, and verify front wheels spin in opposite direction not same.

I still have to check out the front axle before we go down that road. I'll check it this afternoon.

[Flyin6]

OK so this is what I found:

I disconnected the front drive shaft. Those front U-bolt strap bolts were really on there tight. While I was cranking on the wrench I turned the driveshaft, but like it was in gear and I was pulling through the clutch.

I disconnected the driveshaft and the front axle freewheels with ease.

The front shaft feels like it is locked, but I can turn it if I poke a long screwdriver through the open end and pull like heck.

Next, I had Chris turn on the key and then select 4H. I could hear and feel the motor on the front axle and on the transfer case running for a short time. I had him shift back into 2H and same-same. I could both hear and feel both motors running for a moment.

So it does seem to be the front case...What's my issue?

[Bigdave_185]

Sell it buy a Ford.  Just incase Shawn doesn’t respond


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KensAuto]

The unit i sent you had a shift motor on it. could very well be the issue. but i would still like an up in the air w/ all 4 wheels off the ground test. 2wd/4wd check driveline free spin, and verify front wheels spin in opposite direction not same.

I didn't remember you supplying the tcase. I thought he rebuilt it for some reason.

JR, a scanner can test the encoder motor.
It can also be used to compare the vss with the front wheel speed sensors while running on stands in 4wd or down the road.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

[Flyin6]

The unit i sent you had a shift motor on it. could very well be the issue. but i would still like an up in the air w/ all 4 wheels off the ground test. 2wd/4wd check driveline free spin, and verify front wheels spin in opposite direction not same.

I didn't remember you supplying the tcase. I thought he rebuilt it for some reason.

JR, a scanner can test the encoder motor.
It can also be used to compare the vss with the front wheel speed sensors while running on stands in 4wd or down the road.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

Yes, Tate sent me a reman case which was swapped out for my original case. Never did anything to the tate-case except bolt it up and add fluid. I thought it was working perfectly.
But now thinking the clutch inside is dragging some, I think some of the poor mileage can be attributed to that. I am now concerned that I may have cooked this case too, as it may have been turning in some sort of 4WD all along. Did that cause excessive wear to the clutch?
Raises another question. That being is it actually "In" 4WD and the stiff resistance I feel trying to turn the driveshaft is actually the clutch slipping. Should that be the case, then this newer T-case is in need of a new clutch.
I think I'll drain the fluid and inspect, subject to Tate's input here.

[stlaser]

Thanks Dave! Ahem, ahem, Ford…..

[EL TATE]

sounds like an overly preloaded clutch to me or a dry clutch. may be a simple solution to this but i may be warrantying this out for you too. hold tight, i'll let you know asap. from my lead tech:

If in 2wd the front disconnect is locked, then they need to fix the disconnect motor.
Yes, depressing the plunger by hand / long screw driver is stiff.

As far as the front drive shaft not turning easy in 2wd, yes, they can scrub the clutch pack to break them in faster by doing the figure8’s.   but if the front disconnect actuator is frozen in the locked position, that would be why it bucks.

They intentionally build the t cases w/ a tight clutch. you can do some tight, 4wd figure 8's in a parking lot to speed up clutch wear, but it IS intentional and should not be affecting fuel mileage. if your actuator is stuck and the front end is running all the time that would definitely affect mileage. all 4 wheels in the air, 2wd nothing should move up front. if you spin one tire by hand and the other moves in 2wd, your actuator is engaged.

[Flyin6]

sounds like an overly preloaded clutch to me or a dry clutch. may be a simple solution to this but i may be warrantying this out for you too. hold tight, i'll let you know asap. from my lead tech:

If in 2wd the front disconnect is locked, then they need to fix the disconnect motor.
Yes, depressing the plunger by hand / long screw driver is stiff.

As far as the front drive shaft not turning easy in 2wd, yes, they can scrub the clutch pack to break them in faster by doing the figure8’s.   but if the front disconnect actuator is frozen in the locked position, that would be why it bucks.

They intentionally build the t cases w/ a tight clutch. you can do some tight, 4wd figure 8's in a parking lot to speed up clutch wear, but it IS intentional and should not be affecting fuel mileage. if your actuator is stuck and the front end is running all the time that would definitely affect mileage. all 4 wheels in the air, 2wd nothing should move up front. if you spin one tire by hand and the other moves in 2wd, your actuator is engaged.

I guess I can jack it up, put it in neutral and 2H with the key off and manually turn the rear drive shaft...Or should I use engine power?

[stlaser]

sounds like an overly preloaded clutch to me or a dry clutch. may be a simple solution to this but i may be warrantying this out for you too. hold tight, i'll let you know asap. from my lead tech:

If in 2wd the front disconnect is locked, then they need to fix the disconnect motor.
Yes, depressing the plunger by hand / long screw driver is stiff.

As far as the front drive shaft not turning easy in 2wd, yes, they can scrub the clutch pack to break them in faster by doing the figure8’s.   but if the front disconnect actuator is frozen in the locked position, that would be why it bucks.

They intentionally build the t cases w/ a tight clutch. you can do some tight, 4wd figure 8's in a parking lot to speed up clutch wear, but it IS intentional and should not be affecting fuel mileage. if your actuator is stuck and the front end is running all the time that would definitely affect mileage. all 4 wheels in the air, 2wd nothing should move up front. if you spin one tire by hand and the other moves in 2wd, your actuator is engaged.

I guess I can jack it up, put it in neutral and 2H with the key off and manually turn the rear drive shaft...Or should I use engine power?

Why not sit that pig up on 4 Jack stands and thoroughly go over it? Unless you own harbor freight stands……

[EL TATE]

sounds like an overly preloaded clutch to me or a dry clutch. may be a simple solution to this but i may be warrantying this out for you too. hold tight, i'll let you know asap. from my lead tech:

If in 2wd the front disconnect is locked, then they need to fix the disconnect motor.
Yes, depressing the plunger by hand / long screw driver is stiff.

As far as the front drive shaft not turning easy in 2wd, yes, they can scrub the clutch pack to break them in faster by doing the figure8’s.   but if the front disconnect actuator is frozen in the locked position, that would be why it bucks.

They intentionally build the t cases w/ a tight clutch. you can do some tight, 4wd figure 8's in a parking lot to speed up clutch wear, but it IS intentional and should not be affecting fuel mileage. if your actuator is stuck and the front end is running all the time that would definitely affect mileage. all 4 wheels in the air, 2wd nothing should move up front. if you spin one tire by hand and the other moves in 2wd, your actuator is engaged.

I guess I can jack it up, put it in neutral and 2H with the key off and manually turn the rear drive shaft...Or should I use engine power?

Why not sit that pig up on 4 Jack stands and thoroughly go over it? Unless you own harbor freight stands……

This. you can check the actuator just by having the front end off the ground with the driveline out of it. if both tires move when one is turned your actuator is engaged even in 2wd.

[Flyin6]

I'll check and report back by the monday

[Flyin6]

Tate, since the clutch has obviously been scrubbing since installation, is this T-Case still good? Is it worn out? Fixable?

[JR]

Unless AWD or something similar, why would it have clutches at all?

Shouldn't it simply be 2WD, 4WDH and 4WDL? Actuators, one for 4WD and One for 4WDL.

Am I missing something?

[Bigdave_185]

Unless AWD or something similar, why would it have clutches at all?

Shouldn't it simply be 2WD, 4WDH and 4WDL? Actuators, one for 4WD and One for 4WDL.

Am I missing something?

Maybe it has that auto 4x4 stuff


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dave945]

Isn’t a clutch like a little purse?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Flyin6]

The 246 has both an auto mode and a clutch. I recall seeing one in the factory unit when I split the case to install the better pump

[JR]

I bet thats the issue. Read a little on it here; https://www.transmissiondigest.com/a-guide-to-the-nv-246-transfer-case/

You need a stupid case, not one thats thinks for you,,,,,,,,

[Flyin6]

I bet thats the issue. Read a little on it here; https://www.transmissiondigest.com/a-guide-to-the-nv-246-transfer-case/

You need a stupid case, not one thats thinks for you,,,,,,,,

That was one excellent article. It explained the operation of the NV246 very well.
I no longer like the 246
I wonder if there is a simpler option for it that would fit that uses the same circuitry?
It seems that if there is a "regular" T-case with just 2H-N 4H/4l that would fit my needs mo better. I don't need nor desire any automatic crap thinking for me!

[Flyin6]

Found this pic of a NP-246 rebuild kit:

[stlaser]

Np205 ford version…..

[Flyin6]

Ya know, just realized, I never jacked the burb up to do the test...Darn. I hate when I can't remember things I forgot!!!

I sent it to a detailer a couple of hours ago. He was convinced that the truck was going to come out amazing looking

We'll see...

[Flyin6]

The gentleman detailed "most" of the Suburban and it looks pretty good. He did not polish out the roof, which I wanted to be done and for some reason, the rear hatch which is all covered up by the spare (This one did not break off). Not sure why that wasn't touched, but the rest is spectacular. I'll give him a solid 7 for the job which cost me $250. I felt that was a pretty good price for what I got.

[Flyin6]

The morning dew hazed it up a bit, but I think you get the idea

The interior turned out even better!

[Flyin6]

He said he did a "Two-bucket wash"

Not sure what that means, but in addition to soaping it down, he applied some iron remover that turns purple as it dissolves the rust embedded in the paint. He said he got a strong reaction from that from loads of iron. Next, he clay-bared (Most of) the body, then followed with an application of some ceramic hydro, water-scarin'-away product.

The interior carpets were shampoo and the leather was cleaned and treated with a leather conditioner. The engine is spotless.

A good baseline for the fall and into the winter, plus, it looks great again.

[JR]

 

[EL TATE]

Ya know, just realized, I never jacked the burb up to do the test...Darn. I hate when I can't remember things I forgot!!!

I sent it to a detailer a couple of hours ago. He was convinced that the truck was going to come out amazing looking

We'll see...

I'm 99% certain the clutch is your issue and you have no need to rebuild. we build them very tight for initial break in, and you can overcome this clutch situation with a few alternating figure 8's in 4wd in the parking lot. might even be worth a try before jacking it up.

[Flyin6]

Ya know, just realized, I never jacked the burb up to do the test...Darn. I hate when I can't remember things I forgot!!!

I sent it to a detailer a couple of hours ago. He was convinced that the truck was going to come out amazing looking

We'll see...

I'm 99% certain the clutch is your issue and you have no need to rebuild. we build them very tight for initial break in, and you can overcome this clutch situation with a few alternating figure 8's in 4wd in the parking lot. might even be worth a try before jacking it up.

I was awaiting this exact feedback
I'll do some figure 8's on asphalt and bind up the drivetrain some

[Flyin6]

Well, Tate, seems like I will not need this transfer case after all

I am heavily leaning toward swapping in an early Cummins 12-valve motor and removing everything gasoline and electronic about this burb.

Although I have not completely decided to do this, I took a big step forward today:

[Flyin6]

That is a 1991-93 (not sure yet) W250 Chassis with the early rotary VE pump and a Getrag 5-speed along with a NP-205 transfer case.

[Flyin6]

It is almost completely intact.

The truck was known locally as a strong sled puller. You can see the traction bars, which, who knows, I may repurpose. I hear it also has a south bend performance clutch. I can see that the VE pump has been messed with. Just look at the top cap missing exposing the fuel screw. I'm betting it has been turned up.

Not that it matters, as I will go through it and likely just do a good rebuild with Marine 370 pistons and some studs along with the usual stuff. I'll also have the VE pump overhauled and set up for 400 ish HP.

Now right now, I am considering making my Suburban a 5-speed because I can simplify the installation and keep most of the stock components.

[Flyin6]

There's one other essential piece to the puzzle, and that's the front axle.

Although I would prefer to retain the stock IFS setup, it would make a whole lot of sense to convert it to a SAS using this Dana 60 which is a passenger drop and makes the NP-205 work

I would only add crossover steering to the factory stuff and call it done

[Flyin6]

The NP-205 has a 1410 rear U-joint and a nice double-cardan front shaft. I think I may try to repurpose that front shaft.

[Flyin6]

The truck has a Dana 70 rear axle which will be sold, along with the frame, radiator, intercooler, springs, and steering box. It even has a borgensen steering joint. I found those things (like the frame) bring good money.

[stlaser]

Hmmmm, that thing will ride like a log wagon with leaf springs up front.

[Flyin6]

There are a lot of other parts I will try to reuse as well. I'll clean and powder coat all the brackets and hard stuff, rebuild this alternator, replace the AC compressor and replace everything that moves like water and oil pumps and buy all new rubber.

[Flyin6]

Hmmmm, that thing will ride like a log wagon with leaf springs up front.

Two thoughts:

first I had intended to use much longer Chevy leaf springs, right up until Swhobie said the width of the spring pads is all wrong for my chassis.

If that is the case, then I would be forced to use a three-link, and I just happen to have one I never used that I purchased for my D-max truck. That would be a no brainer along with some coil-overs, but I do not view the coil-over suspension as being as robust as simple leaf springs and shocks

[stlaser]

Hmmmm, that thing will ride like a log wagon with leaf springs up front.

Two thoughts:

first I had intended to use much longer Chevy leaf springs, right up until Swhobie said the width of the spring pads is all wrong for my chassis.

If that is the case, then I would be forced to use a three-link, and I just happen to have one I never used that I purchased for my D-max truck. That would be a no brainer along with some coil-overs, but I do not view the coil-over suspension as being as robust as simple leaf springs and shocks

I say go 05+ Superduty and coils. Bigger brakes, better turning radius, huge ujoints and larger stub shafts plus they are easily converted to 8 on 6.5 to match rear and use wheels you have. It also makes your front a tad wider than rear again like it came from factory.

Sell the Dodge 60 for $1500+ and buy a Superduty 60 axle for sub $600 in the tuck I recon.

[Bigdave_185]

Just use the frame and some wood blocks for body mounts and swap the burb onto the frame.  It will be fine



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wyorunner]

Buy a new pump from dieseltuff, keep the old one for a rainy day core. He doesn’t require a core for the new pump and has three options for fuel throughput. Our pig is running his Stage 1, and his 90over injectors, HVLP lift pump, and a turbo he has that is designed for towing.

Do what Shawn said for front axle, wish I had done that, considered it when ours was in pieces. Our truck rides like a Conestoga wagon, beats ya to pieces. But we just deal, wife doesn’t care either. When we change springs we will do the longer leaves up front and back as well. Custom ones from Deaver or alcan.

[Flyin6]

Just use the frame and some wood blocks for body mounts and swap the burb onto the frame.  It will be fine



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yea, good thinking. Some good galvanized nails and I'd have it running in a few hours!

[Flyin6]

Hmmmm, that thing will ride like a log wagon with leaf springs up front.

Two thoughts:

first I had intended to use much longer Chevy leaf springs, right up until Swhobie said the width of the spring pads is all wrong for my chassis.

If that is the case, then I would be forced to use a three-link, and I just happen to have one I never used that I purchased for my D-max truck. That would be a no brainer along with some coil-overs, but I do not view the coil-over suspension as being as robust as simple leaf springs and shocks

I say go 05+ Superduty and coils. Bigger brakes, better turning radius, huge ujoints and larger stub shafts plus they are easily converted to 8 on 6.5 to match rear and use wheels you have. It also makes your front a tad wider than rear again like it came from factory.

Sell the Dodge 60 for $1500+ and buy a Superduty 60 axle for sub $600 in the tuck I recon.

Super duty has a driver's side drop, right?

The idea with the D60 would be to fit the stock dodge drivetrain.

Great suggestion, though, but not looking to SFA the Burb unless I have to. The ultimate solution would be to just swap in the 6BT VE motor and get all that running.

I appreciate the input.

[Flyin6]

Buy a new pump from dieseltuff, keep the old one for a rainy day core. He doesn’t require a core for the new pump and has three options for fuel throughput. Our pig is running his Stage 1, and his 90over injectors, HVLP lift pump, and a turbo he has that is designed for towing.

Do what Shawn said for front axle, wish I had done that, considered it when ours was in pieces. Our truck rides like a Conestoga wagon, beats ya to pieces. But we just deal, wife doesn’t care either. When we change springs we will do the longer leaves up front and back as well. Custom ones from Deaver or alcan.

SD axle is driver's drop. So no need to go through the hassle of doing a SFA if I keep the 4L80E. And frankly, staying with the IFS would keep the excellent ride my burb has.

[JR]

 

[Flyin6]

I'll get back to ya in a day or so, time to get that always desirable and highly anticipated spinal surgery...

[JR]

Sounds like fun

[Flyin6]

Sounds like fun

"Fun" is a word

Not sure it applies...

;-)

[Flyin6]

Ya know, just realized, I never jacked the burb up to do the test...Darn. I hate when I can't remember things I forgot!!!

I sent it to a detailer a couple of hours ago. He was convinced that the truck was going to come out amazing looking

We'll see...

I'm 99% certain the clutch is your issue and you have no need to rebuild. we build them very tight for initial break in, and you can overcome this clutch situation with a few alternating figure 8's in 4wd in the parking lot. might even be worth a try before jacking it up.

Its been awhile, Tate, but I finally got around to doing this.
I did a half dozen figure-"8s" in a parking lot reversing on each completion of the turn. So, now what am I looking for, Being able to rotate the front driveshaft freely?

On another note, I have had the burb up for sale for a couple weeks now and with some offers, but I keep turning them down or sending the buyer home. One thing is that I cannot in good conscience sell it to someone who I feel is financially struggling.
The other thing is, I really like that truck. It is cool, I like driving it and it costs me a couple hundred a year in insurance and registration, $500 tops. Is it just a keeper?

[JR]

So both the burb and the Dmax are on the block? 

Thats about what my Burb runs here in Kali. Wife hates the burb, I have to much invested and want to do with it.

Just turned 250k on the LBZ.

[Flyin6]

So both the burb and the Dmax are on the block? 

Thats about what my Burb runs here in Kali. Wife hates the burb, I have to much invested and want to do with it.

Just turned 250k on the LBZ.

Yea, I have them both up, but every day I keep raising the price on the Burb. I think I want to keep it...

You need to sell your D-max and buy mine. You know it, great truck, and 100K+ fewer miles

[JR]

But its payed for.