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Offline husker77c

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #400 on: November 30, 2015, 07:59:41 PM »
This is the exact reason I will take my truck somewhere to have the timing bumped.  I want no part of that


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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #401 on: November 30, 2015, 08:05:14 PM »
So between the various events, I bolted in the electrical access next
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #402 on: November 30, 2015, 08:07:42 PM »
Then I crawled underneath and just like that had the shift linkage problem solved and that was hooked up and working, and now it has later model parts that are used in todays trucks

Then I went after the wire looms, finishing up the left one and covering and securing that
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #403 on: November 30, 2015, 08:09:28 PM »
We stopped the timing setting project until we get a barring tool which will be delivered tomorrow morning. I wired and attached the grid heater leads which were not previously connected.

Things are getting done!
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #404 on: November 30, 2015, 08:19:33 PM »
So Don, I sense you alluding to if the pump was set at 13.5 BTDC and raw fuel was pouring out of the exhaust that there may be other problems that would cause the pump to throw extra fuel?

Any speculation?  What are the possibilities?  Bad pump? something else?
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Offline KensAuto

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #405 on: November 30, 2015, 08:33:32 PM »
I've never done the cummins timing thing, and I think that I never will want to do so! (although I did have fun setting the timing/mechanical injectors on the cummins in the 5 ton...and it SUCKED!!)

So, is he thinking the pump? Injectors? Not enough air?
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Offline cudakidd53

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #406 on: November 30, 2015, 09:10:21 PM »
Hey Don-

Wouldn't the aux filler neck be less prone to leaks if you flipped it?  Then the upper half would go into the lower half instead of the current flow path hitting the inside edge of the lower half......just a musing from the popcorn crowd.  :)
No Mike, a consensus of me and I consulting us confirms proper OPP (optimum part placement)

That's counter-DOT talk for "shut-up Mike"...... :o LOL
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #407 on: November 30, 2015, 10:27:40 PM »
So Don, I sense you alluding to if the pump was set at 13.5 BTDC and raw fuel was pouring out of the exhaust that there may be other problems that would cause the pump to throw extra fuel?

Any speculation?  What are the possibilities?  Bad pump? something else?
Well we did discover something else...very tight valve lash

The intakes are supposed to be .010" and the exhaust's set at .020"
I could not squeeze a .010 in the intake side and it just slid in the exhaust.

So I know the valve lash is off for sure, and plan to reset that tomorrow.

Following setting the lash, finishing setting the timing and bolting it all back together, we will fire it up and see if it is better or the same (Or worse???)

From that point I'll formulate some plan to move forward

I had to make some assumptions. The inline pump on this engine was rebuilt about 30,000 miles ago. Since then it had 4K governor springs added.

I was told the engine was running well at that point, then came the rebuild of the engine. During the rebuild, he added a #5 fuel plate, which fuels A LOT, and laser cut delivery valves which like the plate are designed to flow a lot of fuel.

Working on the assumption that the engine was running with that pump before and for 30K miles, the pump itself should be OK. I question the fuel plate, the DV's and the installation of those along with the new marine injectors I installed.

Everything else is unchanged or renewed.

The head was rebuilt with new 150# springs and a 3 angle valve job.
The gaskets were all replaced.
The pistons were replaced with forged units with Marine configuration bowls.
The rings and bearings are all high quality and of a standard size.
The oil pump was rebuilt
The crank was checked and cleaned, nothing else was needed
It got ARP head studs.
The KDP mod was done
It was professionally assembled with all new parts

So it is probably something injection pump related...
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 10:35:38 PM by Flyin6 »
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Offline husker77c

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SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #408 on: December 01, 2015, 11:29:28 AM »
The tight lash could be a problem.  I've read where some people set them at like .006and .014. I set mine at .010 and .020 like you were saying.  So depending on how tight they actually are they could be opening to far to soon and getting unburnt fuel out the exhaust.

Are you 100% sure it has marine Pistons?  Not doubting you but if you didn't put em in and the seller said they were etc. If it had standard pistons and marine injectors and the big delivery valves couldn't the injectors be spraying a lot of fuel outside the bowls which could causing fuel out the exhaust?   

What size turbo is on it?   It could be you're just pushing more fuel than you have air for.  Big injectors and bigger DVs will flow a lot of fuel.  Flooding it when you hit the throttle so to speak.   From what I've read its rare to have a bad p-pump.   


Edit
Could it be the boost line running to the afc is pinched a little bit causing then afc to read a higher boost pressure and consequently pumping more fuel?

Edit again.
Could be a broken injector I guess too. 


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« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 11:41:47 AM by husker77c »

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #409 on: December 01, 2015, 05:52:11 PM »
Husker,

It has Marine pistons. I have pics of the rebuild. It also has the Marine 370 HP injectors so they should match.
As you probably know people run the marine injectors in regular piston engines so it should run, although probably produce some additional black smoke.

The valve lash is too tight, but I don't know how much tighter...Will find out tomorrow.

AFC line, well, I'll check that tomorrow. I pulled the oil supply line today and found NO oil in it!!!!!!

More about that in the write up that follows
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #410 on: December 01, 2015, 05:55:13 PM »
We finished timing the motor today. Then checked it several times. It is within 1 thousandth of an inch of 16.5 degrees timing advance. So that is as good as it is going to get!

I wanted to show the Barring tool which I purchased today from Snap-on Tools.

It makes cranking the engine over by hand a breeze. Literally a two finger operation with this little jewel!
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #411 on: December 01, 2015, 05:57:08 PM »
With the timing checked Wayne properly torqued the injection pump to its gear at 155 ft/lbs.
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #412 on: December 01, 2015, 06:05:17 PM »
It was about this time that Wayne mentioned that he didn't recall seeing any oil come out of the injection pump when he pulled the plug out of the bottom.

So I started to investigate

First I pulled the top of the oil supply line off the top of the pump only to discover that not a single drop of oil came out!

So I proceeded to pull the line off the engine. Upon checking, we found the line to be devoid of oil. As in not a single drop!!!!!!!

Now, I just don't get it. The oil pressure gage comes right up to normal when the engine "Starts." There is evidience of oil in the top of the head and the rocker arms appeared a bit "Wet," so I believe the engine is indeed oiling.

So I did some research online.

I discovered that whenever a Bosh inline pump is rebuilt or replaced, you must pour 750 ML of oil into the pump. That got me thinking. The engine will not rev. Like it is not getting enough fuel. That is inconsistent with the massive amounts of smoke blowing out of the tailpipe, but it was a working theory.

We were speculating that the bob weights on the governor were running freely, not in an oil bath which would allow them to spin open more easily, effectively cutting off the fuel.

OK, bottom line is I added the correct amount of oil and resealed the pump.
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #413 on: December 01, 2015, 06:07:41 PM »
Then we reassembled the engine, checked everything and fired it up.

There is effectively no change from before all this work to now. The engine is still getting tons of fuel which are just being pumped out the exhaust unburned or cloudy white.

Tomorrow we will adjust the valves to see if that could be the problem...
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Offline stlaser

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #414 on: December 01, 2015, 06:09:50 PM »
Who's the purty guy with the funnel? ;D
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Offline EL TATE

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #415 on: December 01, 2015, 06:18:56 PM »
SUPER frustrating to do all that work but to witness the same results. bordering on the definition of insanity there. it's got to be something stupid that was overlooked like the oil in the pump.
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #416 on: December 01, 2015, 06:19:10 PM »
Who's the purty guy with the funnel? ;D
Truth is I did get a little prettier today...Was on my right cheek, small spot maybe half an inch or so, but definitely prettier!
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #417 on: December 01, 2015, 06:26:15 PM »
SUPER frustrating to do all that work but to witness the same results. bordering on the definition of insanity there. it's got to be something stupid that was overlooked like the oil in the pump.
Yea, I don't get down all that much, but I am a bit bummed over this. So much work...
If it isn't the valve lash, I am going to start to run out of ideas.

I do not think it is the turbo. It was built by professionals for the exact combo I have and what I wanted to do. 12CM exhaust is close to stock, so should spin up normally. 72MM compressor is way big enough to pump in all the air seven engines need, so I doubt it's that.
Now are the brand new Bosch injectors malfunctioning??? You really think so? I don't.
The timing is correct
We put the oil in the pump
I rerouted the fuel return line back to the tank
I installed the correct mechanical lift pump, with the correct relief spring.
I have 8psi of good filtered fuel being supplied to that lift pump.
I have 1/2" fuel lines, no kinks
I visually checked the delivery valves and found no major defects, but I can't tell by looking if they were actually laser cut as I was told...
So
If the lash adjustment doesn't cure the problem, then I guess I start tearing it down again...injectors, then pull the pump off and send it out

But it's Christmas so I am not spending the $$$ on all that, so SquareD is just going to sit for awhile I guess
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Offline stlaser

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #418 on: December 01, 2015, 06:36:08 PM »
Any way to get me pics of the edges of those laser cut plates? I can tell you if they were or not.....
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Offline EL TATE

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #419 on: December 01, 2015, 06:57:25 PM »
Coming from Mr. Laser himself, I would suggest that is a good plan.
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Offline Wilbur

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #420 on: December 01, 2015, 08:21:26 PM »
That is disappointing Don....I trust you will get to the bottom of it. But certainly frustrating as hell when you're going through it. Good luck! It will be worth it when you solve it.

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #421 on: December 01, 2015, 08:26:34 PM »
I know little to nothing about 6BTs so this advice is worth what you paid for it...

Seems to me that if you are certain you have good compression and we know you have air, then it is a fueling issue.  Injectors all being bad at the same time is unlikely and from what you describe it would have to be many if not most bad to fuel at that rate.

You solved the timing on the pump so I'd have to believe the problem lies in what ever meters the fuel to the injectors, which I suppose meaning the pump has to get gone over by a very qualified shop.

Sorry for the trouble but as Wil said, it will be worth it and a great education to boot.

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Offline rasimmo

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #422 on: December 01, 2015, 10:34:14 PM »
Without being there it is hard to be much help. From your description it sounds like more like an air issue than fuel to me. If the air ain't getting there and the fuel is when you try to accelerate then the engine won't rev up and the unburned fuel will just go down the pipe. I don't remember what you said boost pressure was or where you are measuring. Something as simple as a rag left in the IC pipe or a roll of duct tape left in the turbo air inlet (seen both happen) could really throw you for a loop. I would go through all the air side too before spending more money fixing things that you ain't sure are broken.

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #423 on: December 01, 2015, 10:36:51 PM »
I have a bunch of other things to check out now after researching the subject and reading for a couple hours
Air leak in fuel supply line
AFC improperly adjusted (Who knows???)
Lift pump not working properly
Lift pump cam (Not likely)
bad injection pump (Won't respond to some adjustments)
Injectors malfunctioning (Not likely since they are new)
Valve hanging open causing loss of compression and incomplete ignition (Possible)
Glazed cylinder walls (Not, were just honed)
Loss of compression-Piston (Not likely, new pistons)
Sticking piston ring (Improbably...new)
Timing (Not...adjusted and checked, it's right)
Water leaking into cylinder (Not likely unless I was scammed and sold a bad engine)
Leaking head gasket (Not likely, new gaskets, head studs, appears to be installed correctly)
Demon with a square D Voodo doll (Was going to pray over this one, but a thought occurred to me...What if God sees this truck as an idol I have placed before him. Well, I'll bet it will never run right/wrong/otherwise!) So I won't pray for such a shallow thing.

Bottom line: Frustration, tired eyes, worn out, need sleep...
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #424 on: December 01, 2015, 10:39:09 PM »
Without being there it is hard to be much help. From your description it sounds like more like an air issue than fuel to me. If the air ain't getting there and the fuel is when you try to accelerate then the engine won't rev up and the unburned fuel will just go down the pipe. I don't remember what you said boost pressure was or where you are measuring. Something as simple as a rag left in the IC pipe or a roll of duct tape left in the turbo air inlet (seen both happen) could really throw you for a loop. I would go through all the air side too before spending more money fixing things that you ain't sure are broken.
Eventually I will get to that if nothing else, but we had some pipes off and found nothing unusual, and the turbo is open, you can see it spinning. It starts to light but then just chokes and loads up
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #425 on: December 01, 2015, 10:39:38 PM »
Valve lash check in the morning, then move on from there...
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Offline Nate

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #426 on: December 01, 2015, 10:47:31 PM »
Who's the purty guy with the funnel? ;D

You talkin about the guy with the white hair and THE REALLY BAD COMBOVER!?
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Offline stlaser

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #427 on: December 01, 2015, 10:54:37 PM »
Who's the purty guy with the funnel? ;D

You talkin about the guy with the white hair and THE REALLY BAD COMBOVER!?

You didn't just go there.......
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Offline Nate

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #428 on: December 01, 2015, 10:58:46 PM »
Heck, he was tryin to hide it with the shades.  Oh and yeah i did..........:D
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Offline Dawg25385

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #429 on: December 02, 2015, 12:04:24 AM »
Hope you get it figured out chief... Lots of time and money sunk on the ole girl, I can only imagine how much you're looking forward to getting her out on the road


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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #430 on: December 02, 2015, 12:10:32 AM »
Heck, he was tryin to hide it with the shades.  Oh and yeah i did..........:D

Me thinks he had all his hair when he started on this and has pulled it out trying to sort this out....
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Offline JR

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #431 on: December 02, 2015, 02:59:01 AM »
Just got all caught up, lots of good work done, but one thing I didn't see checked or I missed it.

symptoms:

It doesn't burn all the fuel, doesn't rev.

Everything is solid or new and to spec maybe with a slight tight vavle lash.Turbo never really spins up, good oil pressure.

The camshaft is not timed correct.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 03:13:58 AM by JR »
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Offline cudakidd53

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #432 on: December 02, 2015, 07:17:11 AM »
^^^^^ oh boy- that would create issues ^^^^^   

Isn't it possible for some cams to have the drive gear removed and potentially mounted 180 degrees off?  IIR some even have additional advance able to be built in.......

Don, really sorry to see this arduous struggle to push the ball in the end zone!  Prayers sent!
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #433 on: December 02, 2015, 07:39:01 AM »
Just got all caught up, lots of good work done, but one thing I didn't see checked or I missed it.

symptoms:

It doesn't burn all the fuel, doesn't rev.

Everything is solid or new and to spec maybe with a slight tight vavle lash.Turbo never really spins up, good oil pressure.

The camshaft is not timed correct.



oh.  That may be a captain obvious moment right there.  Should be easy enough to check.
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #434 on: December 02, 2015, 12:13:16 PM »
Hmmm, camshaft timing, that's interesting
OK have to figure out how to check that without pulling everything apart. If it is, should be able to correct.

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Offline Tedram

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #435 on: December 02, 2015, 01:27:20 PM »
Hang in there Chief! You will get it figured out, my dad would call all this work "Good Training"-- Best of luck today and hope adjusting the valves makes it all good.
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Offline JR

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #436 on: December 02, 2015, 01:51:14 PM »
It can be checked as it is. TDC and time the cam via the lobes.

If changes are needed, the timing cover come off.

Just a tooth or 2 would cause what you have.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 01:51:57 PM by JR »
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #437 on: December 02, 2015, 05:04:47 PM »
Hang in there Chief! You will get it figured out, my dad would call all this work "Good Training"-- Best of luck today and hope adjusting the valves makes it all good.
Thanks Friend!

But the results of todays efforts can be summed up in the pic:
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #438 on: December 02, 2015, 05:08:15 PM »
Its not all bad, as Tedram noted it's all training. So I will take the high ground here and say I am learning a lot through practical experience about this great motor.

Going down the checklist of things that could make a lot of smoke, a notable diesel shop when contacted said they would bet on the pressure control valve located on the return side of the pump.

So the first thing we did was to pull it to check the spring/ball for proper operation
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #439 on: December 02, 2015, 05:10:27 PM »
It's a trick little devil to get, but easily checked. The actual valve fits inside the bolt which passes through the banjo and allows a certain amount of fuel, I believe 1.5 gal/min to pass back to the fuel tank
Site owner    Isaiah 6:8, Psalm 91 
NSDQ      Author of the books: Distant Thunder and Thoren

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #440 on: December 02, 2015, 05:13:03 PM »
The visual inspection was fine, no broken spring and the plunger operated smoothly. Other than testing the actual pressure in the pump case, which is a step that is forthcoming, this thing passes muster.

The next thing that could cause the white smoke would be the AFC pneumatic signal. The line pictured is a length of nylon tubing that appeared to be in good shape and unobstructed.
Site owner    Isaiah 6:8, Psalm 91 
NSDQ      Author of the books: Distant Thunder and Thoren

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #441 on: December 02, 2015, 05:14:44 PM »
I pulled the fuel return line, hooked a length of hose up to it and blew in it. I easily exhaled through it into the fuel tank several times, so I verified the return is clear, and added an element of freshened breath to the fuel in there!
Site owner    Isaiah 6:8, Psalm 91 
NSDQ      Author of the books: Distant Thunder and Thoren

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #442 on: December 02, 2015, 05:15:55 PM »
Next up, adjust the valves.

You can see the inside of the valve covers has been cleaned up and are lookin" spiffy!
Site owner    Isaiah 6:8, Psalm 91 
NSDQ      Author of the books: Distant Thunder and Thoren

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #443 on: December 02, 2015, 05:17:55 PM »
With the valve covers off we were able to verify that the valve lash was tight on every rocker arm we could check initially.

You can see fresh assembly lube on the rocker trunion indicated
Site owner    Isaiah 6:8, Psalm 91 
NSDQ      Author of the books: Distant Thunder and Thoren

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #444 on: December 02, 2015, 05:19:27 PM »
Back to setting the engine at TDC...AGAIN...

Here is the handy-dandy little timing tool which is a part of the P-Pump
Site owner    Isaiah 6:8, Psalm 91 
NSDQ      Author of the books: Distant Thunder and Thoren

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #445 on: December 02, 2015, 05:21:23 PM »
The valves are easily set, with 6 being set at this position, which I think was "A" on the dampener, and the other 6 set on "B"
Site owner    Isaiah 6:8, Psalm 91 
NSDQ      Author of the books: Distant Thunder and Thoren

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #446 on: December 02, 2015, 05:22:52 PM »
OK, while Wayne finished up the clearance, I threw in some cheapo floor mats I found at Cosco last night for $14.99
Site owner    Isaiah 6:8, Psalm 91 
NSDQ      Author of the books: Distant Thunder and Thoren

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #447 on: December 02, 2015, 05:24:32 PM »
And I finally discovered the perfect application for my double jointed 3/8" ratchet

Which is

Cranking that barring tool about seventy six thousand times to set the engine to adjust the valves
Site owner    Isaiah 6:8, Psalm 91 
NSDQ      Author of the books: Distant Thunder and Thoren

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #448 on: December 02, 2015, 05:26:13 PM »
Still more time and wanting to claim a small victory, I found my windshield wiper bushings, tore that system apart, clean, lubed and coated it and started putting it all back together again
Site owner    Isaiah 6:8, Psalm 91 
NSDQ      Author of the books: Distant Thunder and Thoren

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #449 on: December 02, 2015, 05:27:20 PM »
And just like that I had the smoothest operatin' wipers this side of the ladies room over at Walmart!
Site owner    Isaiah 6:8, Psalm 91 
NSDQ      Author of the books: Distant Thunder and Thoren

 

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