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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Land navigation
« on: March 29, 2015, 12:20:30 PM »
This is a new area of study for me.  I've relied on GPS and never had the privilege of having uncle sam train me on over land navigation.

I settled on this compass and have practiced and read up on some of the basics.  I plan to get some real world practice in the National Forest next to my BOL

http://www.amazon.com/Suunto-SS004252010-MC-2G-Global-Compass/dp/B000FEUCRW/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1427645740&sr=1-1&keywords=suunto+m2+compass

and have been looking for a "definitive" book on navigation.

2 questions for the "been there, done/doing that" guys

1. do you have a book you recommend for someone wanting to learn navigation?
2. where is a good source of maps (real maps) and satellite images.  That seems to be a dying market.  I found some USGS topo maps on line but before buying wanted to know if y'all had any good sources.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 12:21:37 PM by TexasRedNeck »
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Offline Nate

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Re: Land navigation
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2015, 01:12:31 PM »
go here tex, and select the first one and you can down load the actual manual.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=us+army+land+navigation+manual

also you may want to look at getting a Cammenga lensatic compass there is not much out there that can beat its toughness and durability.  well worth the extra $$$.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=us+army+lensatic+compass
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 01:16:57 PM by nmeyer414 »
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Land navigation
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2015, 05:10:37 PM »
X2 on Nate's recommendations. I use the same compass, the same one I used in the Armee.

Was talking to Little Don yesterday about setting up nav on the bike. He pointed me to a company, Avenza which makes topos into pdf files. Somehow you geo-link that to known points and you are/can nav from your old smart phone and without needing as much storage.

I've asked him to do a write-up on it in the bike section and get the conversation started.

As for basic land nav stuff, learn how to use that compass, then learn back azimuth. You see Mt. Hood in the distance so you point the compass toward it and read the back azimuth...158 degrees. So on your map find Mt. Hood and draw a line from it 158 degrees magnetic. Be careful to calibrate your line for magnetic deviation printed in the declination diagram, typically a couple of degrees.
Next look over there and you see Niagara falls. Do the same as above. Draw the back azimuth on the map. Where the two lines cross, there you is! See found yourself just like that!
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Offline Nate

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Re: Land navigation
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2015, 05:39:36 PM »
tex, I would recommend this tool as well.  caution: if it does not say GTA 5-2-12 it is not the real deal and can be off in its graduation markings.

http://www.amazon.com/Military-Style-Coordinate-Reader-Protractor/dp/B003CI81NA
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Land navigation
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2015, 06:12:15 PM »
^^^ Again, I concur completely

There are two sizes of that thing. Get the smaller one. More flexible and works better out in the field (For that back azimuth stuff I was talking about).
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Land navigation
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2015, 06:41:41 PM »
Thanks for all the tips guys.  I have downloaded the FM Nate recommended and will see about gettng the Cammenga.  I like the features of the Suunto, particularly the mirror which seems to help in sighting and that back azimuth.  I can always keep the Cammenga for back up in case the Suunto breaks. (or I guess if I'm in negative temps or above 10,000 feet)  I plan on taking off on foot through 18,000 acres and navigating to a point 10 miles out with just a map and compass for practice.  Just need to find a good map for the forest.  That'll be a good hike with my ruck and machete.
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Land navigation
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2015, 09:38:39 PM »
OK, I found a neat site www.mytopo.com  You can get custom made maps any way you want them, fully laminated and rolled etc etc.

Would you order maps in lat/lon or UTM/MGRS?  I understand some of the differences (and which one the military uses) but which is more common/useful?

In other words if you were ordering maps, which system would you order and why?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 09:46:47 PM by TexasRedNeck »
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline BobbyB

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Re: Land navigation
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2015, 11:34:58 PM »
OK, I found a neat site www.mytopo.com  You can get custom made maps any way you want them, fully laminated and rolled etc etc.

Would you order maps in lat/lon or UTM/MGRS?  I understand some of the differences (and which one the military uses) but which is more common/useful?

In other words if you were ordering maps, which system would you order and why?

MGRS.
So, Bobby...being the calculating trained warrior NCO that you are.  Take the appropriate action, Execute!
your standard grunt level CQB is just putting rounds and rounds on scary stuff till it stops scaring you!

Offline Flyin6

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Re: Land navigation
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2015, 09:25:48 AM »
Well, I might differ with Bobby on this one

MGRS (Magnetic Grid Reference System) Reads a coordinate like this: 16SMR12345678
Whereas
Lat/Long reads: N3642.22W08729.33
Lat?long makes sense to civilians and well, everyone uses it, even the military

If Bobby gives me his PZ location as JF43325142, I plug that into my nav system and the thing then navs to and points to N3543.27E05223.58 and that's where I am going. Enroute he comes under fire from a numerically superior force of say 1000 Taliban which are roughly equivalent to a large boy scout troop (for guys like Bobby), but he decides he's wacked enough hajii for the day and calls me for help. Well, I call lickin-splittin who is a buddy of mine, a F-18 driver hanging around with a few 500 pounders on the wing slowing him down, and he has nothing to do. When I tell him to go help Bobby, I give him the lat/long and not the GMRS.

Well, lickin-Splitin is out of gas and the air force tanker is not on station because their rental car A/C didn't work and they had to cancel the flight for fear they might have perspired enroute to their aircraft!

So I call up Nate who is sitting in the FDC (Fire direction Center) of a battery of 155mm howitzers, and BTW that's not fire startin', Nossir, that's ah fire makin'

Anyway Nate is surfing the net writin' up a recipe on RMTWS when I get him and tell him Bobby needs some TK (Taliban killin') nearby, cause his feet hurt and he's tired of shootim guys in man-jams! When I tell Nate about Bobby's location and the coordinates of the amped up boy scout troop of mens in pajamas, I tell him the MGRS.
 
Well, Nate, knowin' Bobbee is pretty self sufficient finishes his post and writeup, then sends the coordinates down to the guns where some buck sergeant or three send some cool DPICM rounds, which is all militarie language for some cool stuff that turns man jams into riddled bed sheets PDQ! So Nate says "Shot-Over" and Bobbee replies "Splash-Over" or something like that as the lower atmosphere gets all dirty and dusty and fouled by flying Taliban parts, and Nate enters the mission with the MGRS coordinates into his journal and gets back to surfin' RMTWS.

Meanwhile, I notice all the dirt suddenly appear in the air from whence it was not, just a second before. I call Bobbee who now is stripped down to his PT Shorts and is catchin' some rays before the extraction, now free of the T-ban guys who suddenly find themselves arguing with Satan over this big misunderstanding and askin for their virgins.

I flare hard with my white silk scarf all up in my face and trailing out the cockpit window like I'm some WW1 ace and blow dirt and dust all over Bobby and the boys. They pick up whetever they can still find of what they used to have before the tornado blew everything all over hell's half acre and meander lazily over to the helicopter. After they are in and we do several briefings and safety checks and finish asking our passengers for their refreshment selection we open up mightily with our door guns, spraying the entire area with 5 or 6 rounds from jammed M240 machine guns, and I violently and rather heroically, yank in power, overtorquing engine  #1 and S-turn like the devil is on my butt until I am clear of the LZ. As I climb to altitude, I adjust my air conditioner settings and contemplate the writeup for my distinguished flying cross from that dangerous extraction.

Nate finishes his write-up and heads off to the mess hall to complain to the mess sergeant who owes him a hundred from last night's game of spades, bobby wipes up the puke all over him from the guy next to him who lost it during my heroic takeoff and the world goes on and we are a better place from all this, I might add!

And that's how the militarie uses MGRS!

So in summary, I really have no point and will continue with my morning quoffee!
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 09:37:39 AM by Flyin6 »
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Offline Nate

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Re: Land navigation
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2015, 11:25:08 AM »
good description right there.

here is the BLUF (bottom line up front) tex.

MGRS is used by ground forces because of the precision/accuracy and LAT/LONG is used by aircraft because they cover a large portion of earth in a very quick amount of time.

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Offline KensAuto

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Re: Land navigation
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2015, 12:39:50 PM »
I was goin' to refer that "mytopo" place Tex, but appears that you have found it.
I have the state of Az on CDs, which contain 5 levels of topo maps....from way zoomed out, down to the usgs zoomed in levels (or BLM icr). If I'm going to hunt a certain place, I just print it out in a few pages and take them with me (if I'm feelin' froggy, I might laminate them).
I think it was Nat Geo that sold the set back in the day for like 150 bucks, but I couldn't find it on their site last night, but the Mytopo stuff looks to have the most options available now.
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