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Offline Bear9350

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Long Range Caliber Selection
« on: January 18, 2016, 01:29:53 PM »
I'm planning on purchasing something in the near future.  It sounds like there are a few guys with knowledge/ experience on in this area so I thought I might lay it out on here and ask for opinions.

I haven't entirely decided what caliber I wanted to go with.  First I was thinking 308 but after doing some reading I'm not sure about it.  Then I considered the 300WM or 300WSM.  I had a cousin that was in the right place at the right time and got a smoking deal on a 7mm mag so I started thinking about that.  Also I have thought about 338. 

Right now I think the .300Win-Mag is the route I would go... maybe.

Right now I would like to keep the actual gun purchase around a grand.  I want to be able to afford to shoot it on a somewhat regular basis.  I can shoot up to about 300 yards by walking out the back door of the house.  I do plan on reloading for it though.

So if anybody has any thoughts or opinions let me hear it.

Offline Flyin6

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2016, 02:29:22 PM »
For 300 meters, the .308 is more than adequate. It is an effective cartridge for use out to 800 meters, possibly 900.
I assume you are talking about shooting deer sized game or paper punching or in the context of this site, a self defense caliber.
If I had shots that were typically in the far side of the .308 range, then the .300 WM is a very good cartridge. That caliber was used as a sniper gun very effectively out past 1000 yards. I own one and it has been a great shooter since the early 80's when I made it mine.
The .270 and 7mm Rem Mag are great long shooters as well. These days the 6.5 cartridges like the Grendel are way long shooters because of excellent bullet coefficient of size vs weight and power.
The standard nato 7.62 X 51 or .308 is probably about the perfect cartridge there is. Available everywhere. Powerful, Kills anything, inexpensive vs a .300 and is proven in everything from combat to long range competitive shooting to your annual deer hunt.
The other .30 cartridges are so-so in my view. The new .300 and the 7.62 X 39 rusky rounds. They have good performance in close but run out of spunk pdq.

Again we return to the .308 which is probably the standard by which other cartridges are compared.
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Offline Bear9350

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2016, 02:45:36 PM »
For 300 meters, the .308 is more than adequate. It is an effective cartridge for use out to 800 meters, possibly 900.
I assume you are talking about shooting deer sized game or paper punching or in the context of this site, a self defense caliber.
If I had shots that were typically in the far side of the .308 range, then the .300 WM is a very good cartridge. That caliber was used as a sniper gun very effectively out past 1000 yards. I own one and it has been a great shooter since the early 80's when I made it mine.
The .270 and 7mm Rem Mag are great long shooters as well. These days the 6.5 cartridges like the Grendel are way long shooters because of excellent bullet coefficient of size vs weight and power.
The standard nato 7.62 X 51 or .308 is probably about the perfect cartridge there is. Available everywhere. Powerful, Kills anything, inexpensive vs a .300 and is proven in everything from combat to long range competitive shooting to your annual deer hunt.
The other .30 cartridges are so-so in my view. The new .300 and the 7.62 X 39 rusky rounds. They have good performance in close but run out of spunk pdq.

Again we return to the .308 which is probably the standard by which other cartridges are compared.

I plan on using it for deer hunting pushing 400 yards and would like to be able to shoot it confidently paper punching beyond that.  Initially I was looking at the .308 but then I read something that the 308 starts losing velocity after about 300 yards and beyond may not retain enough energy to properly expand a hunting round.  That is not to say it is not accurate at those ranges.  I'm pulling that out of the memory banks from some reading I did a couple months ago. 
The cost effectiveness and availability of ammo is definitely a plus for the .308 that is hard to ignore.

Edit:  I somehow managed to find the article I read that had me questioning the .308. http://www.gunsandammo.com/hunting/ga-perspectives-does-the-308-fit-the-long-range-hunting-bill/
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 02:52:42 PM by Bear9350 »

Offline BobbyB

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2016, 03:13:53 PM »
Is this going to be a dedicated range round or you want a dual purpose round?

If dedicated range round,

Stick with 308 as a beginning. Ammo is easier to find until you get into reloading. Once you get into reloading and get good (or better) at it then you should look into upgrading. A Remington 700 will generally be around $600ish, leaving you money towards optics or ammo.

Once you get to where you want to stretch it out further and you can look into the 6.5s. I've heard good, nay great things about the 6.5 Creedmore and the 6.5x47 Lapua. You could even sell the starter rifle to help fund the upgrade.

If you want a dual purpose rifle; hunting or range rifle

The 7mm would be a good choice. It's got a pretty flat trajectory and ammo is relatively easy to find. Again once you start reloading it SHOULDN'T be a problem to work up an accurate round.

300 WM would also be a good round for dual purpose but, in my opinion, kinda of overkill for the local game in the realistic hunting areas.

30-06 is often overlooked, but can be quite accurate once you figure out what load your rifle likes best. Plus side, ammo is VERY easily found.


The above is my personal opinion. I'd go 308 for a range only round, but for dual sport, I'm 50/50 on the 30-06 or 7MM.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 05:01:35 PM by BobbyB »
So, Bobby...being the calculating trained warrior NCO that you are.  Take the appropriate action, Execute!

Offline KensAuto

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2016, 04:01:22 PM »
I'm a big fan of the 7mm....so much so that i have 2...for hunting and sometimes for range day. They've taken bull elk at 300ish yards, and a deer at 600.
...but I'm also with these guys on the 308. It's cheaper at the range, and if you've never killed at long range (500 plus) I would recommend lots of range time to ensure accuracy for humane kills.
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Offline Bear9350

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2016, 04:02:35 PM »
Ideally I would like something I can shoot on the range regularly but occasionally hunt with.  This wouldn't be replacing my normal deer hunting rifle, a Remington model 7600 in .270.  This would be the gun I stand up in the corner of the hunting shack in case the big buck decides to appear at the edge of the field 300-400 yards out while everybody is standing around bs'ing.

I already reload for my .223.  That gun I purchased to have as a range gun and normally shoot a couple times a month.

Offline BobbyB

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2016, 04:11:21 PM »
Ideally I would like something I can shoot on the range regularly but occasionally hunt with.  This wouldn't be replacing my normal deer hunting rifle, a Remington model 7600 in .270.  This would be the gun I stand up in the corner of the hunting shack in case the big buck decides to appear at the edge of the field 300-400 yards out while everybody is standing around bs'ing.

I already reload for my .223.  That gun I purchased to have as a range gun and normally shoot a couple times a month.

30-06 or 7MM. Leaning more towards 30-06.
So, Bobby...being the calculating trained warrior NCO that you are.  Take the appropriate action, Execute!

Offline KensAuto

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2016, 06:22:51 PM »
30-06...definately enough for whitetails....




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Offline Bear9350

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2016, 06:33:23 PM »
I had considered the 30-06 a little but hadn't put much thought into it.  Nobody send to talk about that caliber much even though they are pretty common.  Already around here it is not considered very often even though alot of guys hunt with them.

Offline Atkinsmatt

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2016, 07:33:48 PM »
You can load them up to 220 grains or down around 125.  Pretty versatile round that the military used a lot (1903 series, BAR)until they started going to the common nato round for everything.
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Offline Sammconn

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2016, 08:39:15 PM »
These guys ^^^ have covered it well.

Now, depending on your take of 'long range' the aforementioned 6.5 variants seen to be where it's at in the bench rest world.

I've used my 308 effectively out to 400 on deer, and with tuning and trigger time, I'm sure it would go farther. I'm saying 308 as well for the availability and economy of ammo. Sure the others are nearly as abundant depending on location, so in the end it's what you feel comfortable with.

These days I use my 300 WM exclusively. Yeah it will be disastrous with a poorly placed shot, however I grew up in the grain fields of the 1/2 mile fence line. (Read shot.)

My thoughs are any of the ones mentioned would be good.
I just don't want to wind up missing a digit or limb.  I can sometimes get in a hurry to get results.
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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2016, 09:49:02 PM »
I do plan on reloading for it though.

So if anybody has any thoughts or opinions let me hear it.

All good suggestions so far.  Since you said you will reload, here are my preferences.

308 is a good all purpose round.  I make hits routinely to 1000 yards with mine, and that with only a 20 inch barrel.

I have a 300WM too.  It's not nearly as pleasant to shoot, especially unsurpressed.

Now, my next build will be a 300WSM.  IMO the best all around cartridge, especially if you reload. 

Why? The short action makes for a much handier and lighter rifle.  The large diameter, short cartridge has improved ballistics over the long 300WM.  The powder column has a faster burn rate.  You can load just about any .30 projectile in it.  Load it down with a 150-160 gn bullet with less powder to manage the recoil and be effective on most game out to 400 easy.  Load it up with a high BC projectile like the Berger VLD Hunting in 220gn with a .625 G1 BC and you can get out there a long, long way.  Easy to 1200. 

7WSM is another great cartridge but for some reason it wears out barrels quicker (throat erosion)  Expect 5000 rounds max out of a barrel.

Stay away from the .338 unless you win the lotto.  Can easily run $4 a round to load and unless you are a goon, humping that thing on a stalk is painful.

My next build, as I mentioned, will be based on a Remy 700 short action with the 300WSM, an ultralight stock and drilled and lightened receiver and a tapered barrel.  Expect it to come in around 7lb without scope.  Should shoot 1/2 moa all day long.  Just with the lighter barrels you have to take care to not overheat it with rapid fire.

You can probably find a nice used 700 Remington for about what you want to spend and then have a smith true the action and re-barrel it later. 

I would look for a Alaskan TI in 300WSM if you can find it.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/983469084/REMINGTON-MODEL-700-ALASKAN-Ti-300-WSM-AS-NEW.htm


Otherwise something like this would be a good start and well under your budget

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=537721451
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=537788725


Let us know what you end up with.  Take care
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Offline Bear9350

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2016, 01:18:24 PM »
Did some more looking over the weekend.  Considering the Remington 700 SPS Varmint in .308.  26" heavy barrel weighing 8-1/2 lbs.  The weight doesn't bother me as I don't plan on carrying this gun into the field.

http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?pdesc=Remington-Model-700-SPS-Varmint-Centerfire-Rifle&i=416665

Offline Dawg25385

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2016, 01:26:50 PM »
I almost bought that same gun when i was looking, but opted for the Savage Model 16 with the sporter barrel, as i would be carrying in the field...

The 700 SPS is definitely nice though for the money.
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Offline Bear9350

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2016, 01:48:00 PM »
I almost bought that same gun when i was looking, but opted for the Savage Model 16 with the sporter barrel, as i would be carrying in the field...

The 700 SPS is definitely nice though for the money.

I have spent a lot of time looking at the Savage model 16/116 also.  My .223 is a Savage Model 16 and I really like it.  But with the Savage priced about $300 more I can spend $150 on a Timney trigger for the Remington and have another $150 left to spend on ammo.

Offline BobbyB

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2016, 05:03:13 PM »
Did some more looking over the weekend.  Considering the Remington 700 SPS Varmint in .308.  26" heavy barrel weighing 8-1/2 lbs.  The weight doesn't bother me as I don't plan on carrying this gun into the field.

http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?pdesc=Remington-Model-700-SPS-Varmint-Centerfire-Rifle&i=416665


Nice choice. Plus you can always shorten the barrel if you decide to later on.
So, Bobby...being the calculating trained warrior NCO that you are.  Take the appropriate action, Execute!

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2016, 09:46:45 PM »
Congratulations.  The trigger is the most important connection between you and the weapon.  I suggest a Jewell HVR over the timney.  More expensive but worth it.

A 308 is easy on the barrell and you can expect 10-15k rounds before it is worn out.  With the 26 inch barrel you have a lot of room to work with velocity in burning up powder.

I have some software I can model loads for you if you have some ideas.  Just let me know.

Look forward to a range report.  8 1/2 pounds is not bad.  My GA precision 308 clocks in at 14 with scope.
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Offline BobbyB

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2016, 09:24:22 AM »
Nobody seems to talk about that caliber much even though they are pretty common.

People don't talk about them as it's an older round and it isn't one of the new flashier ones, nor is there much available in a commercial loaded match round. Well, it IS available, just not as easy to get as going to WalMart, Fleet Farm or most outdoor store; like you can with the hunting choices, well generally.
So, Bobby...being the calculating trained warrior NCO that you are.  Take the appropriate action, Execute!

Offline JR

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2016, 02:32:02 PM »
Guess I will just keep my old 7mm, but it does need to be re-scoped for sure.

I just saw that Savage has a new Scout in 308 under 8 lb and a 22wmr in semi. Been looking for a rifle to compliment my PMR30.
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Offline Bear9350

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2016, 09:00:22 AM »
Stopped in to Scheel's yesterday to check out there gun safe options.  Now that the remodel on the house is finishing up I want to have a designated place for the firepower.

On the way out I browsed through the rifles and ran across the Rem Model 700 Varmint I thinking about.  Picked it up to look at it to find out the one they had was in .308 and the price tag they had on it matched the best deal I was able to find online.  So it came home with me.

For a factory trigger I don't think it is half bad.  It has Remington's adjustable trigger on it (I don't recall what they call it) that can be adjusted down to 2.5 lbs I think and it feels fairly crisp.  I'm  hoping to get a scope on it and have it ready to send some lead down range in two weeks when I head back up north for the weekend.

Offline Flyin6

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2016, 09:02:28 AM »
Stopped in to Scheel's yesterday to check out there gun safe options.  Now that the remodel on the house is finishing up I want to have a designated place for the firepower.

On the way out I browsed through the rifles and ran across the Rem Model 700 Varmint I thinking about.  Picked it up to look at it to find out the one they had was in .308 and the price tag they had on it matched the best deal I was able to find online.  So it came home with me.

For a factory trigger I don't think it is half bad.  It has Remington's adjustable trigger on it (I don't recall what they call it) that can be adjusted down to 2.5 lbs I think and it feels fairly crisp.  I'm  hoping to get a scope on it and have it ready to send some lead down range in two weeks when I head back up north for the weekend.
I had one of those guns with the heavy barrel in 6mm. Shot it in Deutschland quite a bit. I think BDL's make great bolt guns.
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Offline BobbyB

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2016, 09:21:19 AM »
Stopped in to Scheel's yesterday to check out there gun safe options.  Now that the remodel on the house is finishing up I want to have a designated place for the firepower.

On the way out I browsed through the rifles and ran across the Rem Model 700 Varmint I thinking about.  Picked it up to look at it to find out the one they had was in .308 and the price tag they had on it matched the best deal I was able to find online.  So it came home with me.

For a factory trigger I don't think it is half bad.  It has Remington's adjustable trigger on it (I don't recall what they call it) that can be adjusted down to 2.5 lbs I think and it feels fairly crisp.  I'm  hoping to get a scope on it and have it ready to send some lead down range in two weeks when I head back up north for the weekend.

Congrats on the purchase. What scope you going to throw on it?
So, Bobby...being the calculating trained warrior NCO that you are.  Take the appropriate action, Execute!

Offline Bear9350

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2016, 09:45:21 AM »
Not sure yet.  I just put a Nikon Prostaff 4-12x40 on the .223.  For $190 it is a good scope with clear lens but I think I may want something with a little higher power.

Offline BobbyB

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2016, 09:57:26 AM »
Not sure yet.  I just put a Nikon Prostaff 4-12x40 on the .223.  For $190 it is a good scope with clear lens but I think I may want something with a little higher power.

Not bad.
So, Bobby...being the calculating trained warrior NCO that you are.  Take the appropriate action, Execute!

Offline Bear9350

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2016, 12:32:52 PM »
I think I have settled on the Vortex Crossfire 2 in 6-18x44.  My uncle has a set if the binoculars and likes them.   The reviews seem to look good also.   I have heard great things about there lifetime warranty.  There headquarters are here in WI and also where there manufacturing facility is.

http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-crossfire-ii-6-18x44-ao-rifle-scope.html

Offline BobbyB

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2016, 03:31:28 PM »
I think I have settled on the Vortex Crossfire 2 in 6-18x44.  My uncle has a set if the binoculars and likes them.   The reviews seem to look good also.   I have heard great things about there lifetime warranty.  There headquarters are here in WI and also where there manufacturing facility is.

http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-crossfire-ii-6-18x44-ao-rifle-scope.html

Vortex is a good choice to top the rifle. I know it doesn't apply to you with a bolt action, but Midwest Industries is also in Wisconsin, as well as Bravo Company USA, I think relatively in the same area.
So, Bobby...being the calculating trained warrior NCO that you are.  Take the appropriate action, Execute!

Offline Bear9350

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2016, 09:05:33 AM »
Scope and mounts arrived yesterday.

I ordered the "Game Reaper" scope mount from DNZ.  It is a one piece aluminum mount so I didn't need to worry about alignment. 



The scope rings also have a lot more thread engagement then most scope rings do to keep everything tight.




I went with there low height version.  I emailed them with my gun and scope specs and asked if I needed low or medium.  They said low should work.  I just have clearance to the barrel.  The scope covers that came with it don't fully fit between the lens and barrel.  If I screw the sun shade on that came with the scope the covers fit though.



With the low mounted scope it will be a little more difficult to load as it is a top load.  I was a little concerned that the one piece mount might interfere also but I don't thin it will be a problem.  I might consider purchasing a conversion kit to change it to a detachable mag.



The Vortex scope seemed clear even cranked up to the 18 power magnification.  There was a generous amount of eye relief also.  I was able to push the scope nearly as far forward as possible in the scope mounts.  I was happy with everything so I plan to take it apart some time this week and torque everything down correctly.  I will hopefully have time to get to the range this weekend to sight it in and see how it shoots.



I had to do all this on the kitchen table.  I've been busy with the remodel etc.. and haven't had time to set my bench back up in the basement.  Need to get that done soon though so I can load some rounds up.




Offline Atkinsmatt

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2016, 12:24:57 PM »
Looks great.  At first, watch the ejection.  If it is a little harder to load there could be an issue with ejecting the brass.
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Offline JR

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2016, 12:45:40 PM »
Those would be a nice upgrade for my old 10-22.
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Offline Bear9350

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #29 on: February 29, 2016, 10:18:23 AM »
Shot it this weekend.  No pics as I wasn't real impressed with it.  Hoping it was a combination of the cheap ammo I bought and not breaking the barrel in yet and not me or the gun.

I think I might try returning the scope too.  I was just wearing a flannel and light jacket shooting yesterday and couldn't get the lens far enough away from my eye without pulling my head back.  The scope seems to have a decent amount of eye relief, just not where I need it.

Offline BobbyB

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #30 on: February 29, 2016, 12:42:27 PM »
Shot it this weekend.  No pics as I wasn't real impressed with it.  Hoping it was a combination of the cheap ammo I bought and not breaking the barrel in yet and not me or the gun.

I think I might try returning the scope too.  I was just wearing a flannel and light jacket shooting yesterday and couldn't get the lens far enough away from my eye without pulling my head back.  The scope seems to have a decent amount of eye relief, just not where I need it.

Try emailing Vortex, and see what they say. Might allow you to do an upgrade or something. You aren't far from their HQ are you?
So, Bobby...being the calculating trained warrior NCO that you are.  Take the appropriate action, Execute!

Offline Bear9350

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #31 on: February 29, 2016, 01:12:54 PM »

Try emailing Vortex, and see what they say. Might allow you to do an upgrade or something. You aren't far from their HQ are you?

I will do that and I will probably swap one of my Nikon scopes on it to see what I think.

Offline BobbyB

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #32 on: February 29, 2016, 03:37:52 PM »
I will do that and I will probably swap one of my Nikon scopes on it to see what I think.

Good luck.
So, Bobby...being the calculating trained warrior NCO that you are.  Take the appropriate action, Execute!

Offline OldKooT

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2016, 08:45:01 AM »
Let us know how it shoots after you get 100rds through it or so. My son's 700 varmint never shot better than POB @100 yrds   "point of barn"  2.42" the best group it shot.

In fact he just had it re barreled and trued and the usual smiting done...I will let you know how that turned out when he gets out to shoot it. I will say the "smith" was less than impressed with the mess when he started.






 
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Offline Bear9350

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2016, 10:11:18 AM »
Let us know how it shoots after you get 100rds through it or so. My son's 700 varmint never shot better than POB @100 yrds   "point of barn"  2.42" the best group it shot.

In fact he just had it re barreled and trued and the usual smiting done...I will let you know how that turned out when he gets out to shoot it. I will say the "smith" was less than impressed with the mess when he started.

2.5" was about it was shooting Sunday.  Put 40 rounds through it so far.  Cleaned it for the second time last night.  Hoping to put some more rounds through it this week yet then swap a different scope onto it and see what happens.

Offline Bob/OlallaWa

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2016, 09:54:09 PM »
If I am shooting paper only, it gets cleaned after about every 10 rounds. Any more than that the groups really widen out. If you are still breaking it in, well I think you are beyond that stage now so no matter.

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2016, 10:08:54 PM »
http://www.badgerordnance.com/remington-long-action-scope-rail.html

take a look at this rail system.  I use this on my rifles.  Gets you 20MOA built in elevation and you can move the scope forward as needed to make the relief work
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Offline Bear9350

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2016, 02:38:46 PM »
http://www.badgerordnance.com/remington-long-action-scope-rail.html

take a look at this rail system.  I use this on my rifles.  Gets you 20MOA built in elevation and you can move the scope forward as needed to make the relief work

I started looking into rails.  I'm wondering if a 20MOA would be appropriate for what I want to do with this gun.  Nearly all of my shooting will be within 600 yards I think and some out to 800.  By my figuring I would be shooting nearly two feet high between 250 and 550 yards?  Does that seem correct?  I graphed what I am imagining in one of the trajectory vs. line of sight charts you put up.  I am thinking I must be missing something.  The blue and green lines are what I imagine the new line of sight would be with a 10 and 20MOA adjustment respectively.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 02:40:04 PM by Bear9350 »

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2016, 08:21:19 PM »
20 MOA is fine.  Remember, you use elevation to zero the rifle.  So you'll zero the rifle with the turret biased towards to top of the travel, which will give you an additional 20moa of downward travel.  No problem zeroing the rifle at 100 with a 20moa rail.  Have them on all my precision rifles.
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

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Offline Bear9350

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2016, 11:24:13 PM »
20 MOA is fine.  Remember, you use elevation to zero the rifle.  So you'll zero the rifle with the turret biased towards to top of the travel, which will give you an additional 20moa of downward travel.  No problem zeroing the rifle at 100 with a 20moa rail.  Have them on all my precision rifles.

I was talking to a co worker after I posted and realized I was thinking about it wrong.  It just moves the zero up in the scope to give you more adjustment down.

Offline Bear9350

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2016, 08:57:56 AM »
Let us know how it shoots after you get 100rds through it or so. My son's 700 varmint never shot better than POB @100 yrds   "point of barn"  2.42" the best group it shot.

In fact he just had it re barreled and trued and the usual smiting done...I will let you know how that turned out when he gets out to shoot it. I will say the "smith" was less than impressed with the mess when he started.

Shot it again yesterday after getting the scope re-mounted with a new rail and scope mounts.  Rounds 60-80 I think.  I had a five shoot group at 1.7".  There was one flyer that I new was off as soon as I squeezed.  If I throw that one out it would have been a 0.8" group at 100 yards.

These were 20 rounds of American Eagle 150 gr FMJ BT stuff from a coworker.  They have another 840 rounds for sale and asking $.75/rd for it.  Might try to talk them down some on the price and pick it up.

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Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2016, 01:32:02 PM »
Bear, not picking on you. Just an recollection of many an Internet marksmen but I love how many a "marksman" I've encountered likes to throw out "the outlier" or call 3 shots a group. In the real world an outlier is still a miss in 10-15mph crosswind at 800. The steel rings or it doesn't. Or for you real been there done that types, it's a kill or it's not which can get innocents/friendlies hurt or killed if you miss the shot.

Your groups are great with a factory rifle and factory ammo. I would invest in a high quality trigger as it has the biggest return on investment. From there you argue about 1/8ths and each 1/8th costs about $1000


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« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 01:32:35 PM by TexasRedNeck »
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Offline BobbyB

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2016, 02:15:41 PM »
Shot it again yesterday after getting the scope re-mounted with a new rail and scope mounts.  Rounds 60-80 I think.  I had a five shoot group at 1.7".  There was one flyer that I new was off as soon as I squeezed.  If I throw that one out it would have been a 0.8" group at 100 yards.

These were 20 rounds of American Eagle 150 gr FMJ BT stuff from a coworker.  They have another 840 rounds for sale and asking $.75/rd for it.  Might try to talk them down some on the price and pick it up.

I'm thinking those groups are good. You said you wanted it for deer hunting back up and 2-300 yds range time. You are well covered by what you posted as group sizes.

So, Bobby...being the calculating trained warrior NCO that you are.  Take the appropriate action, Execute!

Offline Bear9350

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2016, 02:51:55 PM »
Bear, not picking on you. Just an recollection of many an Internet marksmen but I love how many a "marksman" I've encountered likes to throw out "the outlier" or call 3 shots a group. In the real world an outlier is still a miss in 10-15mph crosswind at 800. The steel rings or it doesn't. Or for you real been there done that types, it's a kill or it's not which can get innocents/friendlies hurt or killed if you miss the shot.

Your groups are great with a factory rifle and factory ammo. I would invest in a high quality trigger as it has the biggest return on investment. From there you argue about 1/8ths and each 1/8th costs about $1000


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No worries.  The main reason I bought this gun was to shoot it and improve my skills, I know they are not there yet.  I was just trying to give an accurate representation of what I think the gun would is capable.  At this point the gun is more capable than I am.  I've been thinking about adding a better trigger but I've been doing some reading and I'm not sure how much more money I want to stick into this relatively cheap gun.  I'll probably just keep shooting as is for now.

I generally base my groups of 5 shoots, that seems like the bare minimum to me.  As and engineer the number 30 is thrown around a lot for these types of things.  Generally an average of 30 repetitions of whatever you have is a good statistical representation of the actual process.

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2016, 03:20:03 PM »
That's only a cheap gun because it lacks things of a more expensive rifle. Captain obvious, huh?  By that I mean you add to it as money allows and you'll end up with a very capable weapon system. The Remy 700 action is the basis for the vast majority of precision rifles. Add a trigger. Improve your groups. Hand load and improve your groups. When the barrel is worn out install a new barrel and blueprint the action.  Greatly improve your groups. Then add furniture of your choice and a big ole honking telescope. You have a rifle that will rival anything on the planet in similar caliber. 

So the good news is you don't lose any money investing as you go and you get to use up the factory barrel while improving your skills, making you ready to maximize your new found hardware  accuracy when the time comes.

Keep up the good work


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Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline Bear9350

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2016, 03:46:20 PM »
That's only a cheap gun because it lacks things of a more expensive rifle. Captain obvious, huh?  By that I mean you add to it as money allows and you'll end up with a very capable weapon system. The Remy 700 action is the basis for the vast majority of precision rifles. Add a trigger. Improve your groups. Hand load and improve your groups. When the barrel is worn out install a new barrel and blueprint the action.  Greatly improve your groups. Then add furniture of your choice and a big ole honking telescope. You have a rifle that will rival anything on the planet in similar caliber. 

So the good news is you don't lose any money investing as you go and you get to use up the factory barrel while improving your skills, making you ready to maximize your new found hardware  accuracy when the time comes.

Keep up the good work



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That was the initial plan but the more I read about the Remington SPS the more I was questioning if it made since to do that or just invest in a better gun.  The two big improvements I could see myself making first would be the trigger and the stock.  In the meantime I will just keep shooting it.

Offline BobbyB

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2016, 05:04:47 PM »
That was the initial plan but the more I read about the Remington SPS the more I was questioning if it made since to do that or just invest in a better gun.  The two big improvements I could see myself making first would be the trigger and the stock.  In the meantime I will just keep shooting it.

I'd keep what you got and develop a load your rifle likes.

As for investing in a better rifle, over time you'll build the rifle you want, off what you already have, vs buying what someone in a building far removed from you, says you want. Just like trucks there isn't a perfect vehicle off the factory floor. Everyone changes something on them. Do what TRN said, shoot the crap out of yours, when the time comes for a better scope snag it, then the action and barrel and stock, develop your own loads. You'll be better off than someone who bought a super fancy premium gunshop built rifle, who has NO time behind it.
So, Bobby...being the calculating trained warrior NCO that you are.  Take the appropriate action, Execute!

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2016, 08:26:06 PM »
I'll make you a deal Bear.  If you buy a Jewell HVR trigger and you don't think it was worth the money or improved your groups, I'll buy it from you for what you paid for it plus shipping.
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Offline OldKooT

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #48 on: March 30, 2016, 07:50:30 AM »
Us old farmers are not where I'd seek advice... that said, your accuracy is now well within deer death range.  5 shot groups are fine, so are 3 shot groups, so are any other number you find interesting. For most real world situations...it's the 1st shot that matters.

It's your 1st cold barrel shot that makes or breaks a hunting rifle/shooter. I always "practice" one shot, one hit, one grade. (once I have determined the guns capable of what I desire) I heavily subscribe to the concept, you only need one shot.

I am with TRN, buy a quality trigger at some point. It won't help the weapon shoot, but it will improve your skills. A quality adjustable trigger will allow you to be more consistent and tighten things up on the paper. Most importantly, it will allow you that controlled confident 1st important shot time and time again, after some practice.

Norm

Are you a prepper?  "No, whats a prepper? I am just a mildly OCD farmer"

Offline JR

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Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2016, 12:54:11 PM »
That is some of the best advice I have seen posted here.  If the gun will perform, you adjust to it and know it.
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