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Offline Flyin6

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Offline Wilbur

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2016, 04:37:42 PM »
yeesh....made me sick watching that but worse was thinking about everything bouncing around.  :o

Offline cudakidd53

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2016, 05:56:01 PM »
Hey Don, is the reason the pitch changes as it rotates, due to air velocity of forward flight hitting the backside of the blade?
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Offline KensAuto

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2016, 09:09:27 PM »
Since I was a former Cobra pilot, and then an Apache pilot, I'll answer that..(in my dreams)
That's how it attains directional motion, by pitching (swash plates up top) at certain points during the revolution.


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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2016, 09:59:12 PM »
Since I was a former Cobra pilot, and then an Apache pilot, I'll answer that..(in my dreams)
That's how it attains directional motion, by pitching (swash plates up top) at certain points during the revolution.


I'm sure Don will eat this post alive.
Yea, you're wrong!

In forward flight the rotor system has an advancing blade, the one rotating into the headwind, and a retreating blade. At, say 100 knots forward airspeed, the advancing blade is seeing 100 knots additional airspeed and the retreating blade sees one hundred less.
So say the rotor blade is doing 400 knots at it's outer foot of length. Then the advancing blade sees 500 knots of relative airspeed, and the retreating sees 300 knots. To compensate, Ken was correct, the swash plate provides for cyclic feathering of the rotor blade. It tends to flatten the pitch or angle of attack of the advancing blade and really pitch up the retreating blade. That way there is a mechanical balance of lift across the rotor system. If angle of attack remained constant like in an airplane, then the advancing blade would be making a whole lot more lift than the retreating blade, so as soon as you started moving forward, like one knot, the advancing half of the system would produce more lift than the retreating half causing the advancing side to rise, thus rolling the aircraft over.
So we mechanically pitch the blade up substantially, like 15 degrees in most rotor systems on the retreating side to maintain that balance. Interestingly enough lower powered helicopters are limited in forward airspeed by how much the retreating side can maintain span-wise performance. A notable exception is the Chinook, which has so doggone much power that it can propel the aircraft forward to a point where the advancing blade becomes transonic, and attempts supersonic flight! The resulting mega increase is what's known as profile drag bends the blade severely tearing the thing to pieces and ending a perfectly good "Watch this" story in the aircraft!
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Offline Nate

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2016, 10:04:27 PM »
yeah, the DOT's are not going to understand what you just posted!

I understand it to an extent just from spending so much time with the crew and the airframe.

from what I could tell on the video, was there was some piece of equipment that was not doing what it was supposed to do????
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2016, 10:13:12 PM »
yeah, the DOT's are not going to understand what you just posted!

I understand it to an extent just from spending so much time with the crew and the airframe.

from what I could tell on the video, was there was some piece of equipment that was not doing what it was supposed to do????
Nope, it was working as advertised. But that was a Russian MI-8 rotor blade. Kinda like a 1991 Cummins VE motor compared to a 2016 Mercedes clean diesel. The Russian stuff just sort of knocks and beats the air into submission whereas western design coerces air into giving up lift!
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Offline cudakidd53

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2016, 10:53:25 PM »
So, in an uneducated, introspective way.......I was half correct.......lift, transonic longitudinal regressive rotational egg beat in' bacon strips have to flutter to keep flying forward without screwing into the ground or flipping over.......add twice as much metal rotating around an oil leak and its mo' better like and called a Chinook........I now know why Bobby says, "pilots"......... :o..... ;)
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Offline BobbyB

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2016, 03:03:04 AM »
So, in an uneducated, introspective way.......I was half correct.......lift, transonic longitudinal regressive rotational egg beat in' bacon strips have to flutter to keep flying forward without screwing into the ground or flipping over.......add twice as much metal rotating around an oil leak and its mo' better like and called a Chinook........I now know why Bobby says, "pilots"......... :o..... ;)

I say "pilots... ::)" when they say, attempt or do something that makes me shake my head. Or they get overly technical and people's eyes glaze over..  ;D
So, Bobby...being the calculating trained warrior NCO that you are.  Take the appropriate action, Execute!
your standard grunt level CQB is just putting rounds and rounds on scary stuff till it stops scaring you!

Offline JR

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2016, 04:04:42 AM »
Ever hear a Huey as it cruises in. That one blade tip is transonic.

I thought it was a cool video as the models. We have progressed from fixed pitch with paddles to as we call it "fly barless heads" and we us 3 axis gyros to control it. Our headspeeds are around 1500-2000, with 3-4* pitch for level flight and 12-15 for crazy stuff that I watch only.

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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2016, 07:14:18 AM »

Since I was a former Cobra pilot, and then an Apache pilot, I'll answer that..(in my dreams)
That's how it attains directional motion, by pitching (swash plates up top) at certain points during the revolution.


I'm sure Don will eat this post alive.
Yea, you're wrong!

In forward flight the rotor system has an advancing blade, the one rotating into the headwind, and a retreating blade. At, say 100 knots forward airspeed, the advancing blade is seeing 100 knots additional airspeed and the retreating blade sees one hundred less.
So say the rotor blade is doing 400 knots at it's outer foot of length. Then the advancing blade sees 500 knots of relative airspeed, and the retreating sees 300 knots. To compensate, Ken was correct, the swash plate provides for cyclic feathering of the rotor blade. It tends to flatten the pitch or angle of attack of the advancing blade and really pitch up the retreating blade. That way there is a mechanical balance of lift across the rotor system. If angle of attack remained constant like in an airplane, then the advancing blade would be making a whole lot more lift than the retreating blade, so as soon as you started moving forward, like one knot, the advancing half of the system would produce more lift than the retreating half causing the advancing side to rise, thus rolling the aircraft over.
So we mechanically pitch the blade up substantially, like 15 degrees in most rotor systems on the retreating side to maintain that balance. Interestingly enough lower powered helicopters are limited in forward airspeed by how much the retreating side can maintain span-wise
Makes perfect sense. Never thought of that.


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Offline cudakidd53

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2016, 07:18:19 AM »
(JR video) That the guy who trims bushes for Disney!?  That's rediculois! (So is my spelling)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 05:31:40 PM by cudakidd53 »
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2016, 09:20:36 AM »
I'm not exactly sure what just happened here, so I'll just leave it...Or we could discuss retreating blade stall, gyroscopic procession, translating tendency, and effects of compressibility
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Offline BobbyB

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2016, 09:25:16 AM »
I'm not exactly sure what just happened here, so I'll just leave it...Or we could discuss retreating blade stall, gyroscopic procession, translating tendency, and effects of compressibility

It was the natural progression of DOT conversation.
So, Bobby...being the calculating trained warrior NCO that you are.  Take the appropriate action, Execute!
your standard grunt level CQB is just putting rounds and rounds on scary stuff till it stops scaring you!

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2016, 09:27:38 AM »
Hey, I was just fillin in for ya boss!
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Offline JR

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2016, 12:20:16 PM »
If that camera was on the hub that thing was shaking up a storm. I could it mounted on a hub doing that, but it is a rusky heli,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2016, 09:27:32 PM »
I'm not exactly sure what just happened here, so I'll just leave it...Or we could discuss retreating blade stall, gyroscopic procession, translating tendency, and effects of compressibility

Love to hear it.  I bailed on the engineering degree after an argument with my Diff E professor so I love that stuff.
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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2016, 08:51:48 AM »
^^^^^same here.  Fascinating info.

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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2016, 01:08:01 PM »
OK, well here's a strange one to start off:

Gyroscopic procession

The rotor system is a big gyro

Now gyros respond in a unigue way to being forced to change their orientation. The force they produce is physical and is hard to adjust. That's why there is some big spinning gyro in rockets to keep em standing upright. (Rocket man, you can illuminate this in a post or two)

If you hold a bicycle wheel and tire by it's axle and spin it up while it if off the bike. Get it going really fast then try and tilt it in some direction. It will resist to the maximum of it's gyroscopic force and will tilt 90 degrees in the direction of rotation from where you pushed!

Say you try and tilt it forward. if it is spinning counterclockwise, it will tilt to the left!

So helicopters are designed with the control input hooked up to the non rotating part of the swash plate 90 degrees off from where the input needs to take place. The forward tilt input is on the right side! The side tilt is either on the front or back!

I always wondered how Igor Sikorsky felt then he pushed forward on the stick and it banked left!
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2016, 02:10:27 PM »
it's amazing those things stay in the air. it's as if everything you're trying to make it do is forcing it to fall out of the sky. over compensating to the max to keep it in flight. like shooting with Kentucky windage while running backwards down the top of a train.. all while the thing falls off a bridge. hahaha

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2016, 02:31:27 PM »
it's amazing those things stay in the air. it's as if everything you're trying to make it do is forcing it to fall out of the sky. over compensating to the max to keep it in flight. like shooting with Kentucky windage while running backwards down the top of a train.. all while the thing falls off a bridge. hahaha
Ah, you just explained the aft wheel landing on a pinnacle at night technique...
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2016, 03:06:20 PM »
Next: Ground Resonance

This is a good to know little aerodynamic factoid. Either knowing about it or not knowing anything about it can result in the sudden destruction of your three bladed aircraft with about a one second warning.

Three bladed rotors have blades flying at almost a perfect 120 degrees apart which creates what is known as a three-per-rev vibration. When a helicopter is running it not only shakes itself, but wouldn't ya know it...It shakes other things as well. Like you, and metallic things prone to fatigue, That can of coke on the dash, but yea, that's not important in this example.

The ground is the other thing that is shaking. Now as long as there are PROPERLY SERVICED struts between the rotor system and the ground, you are OK, well, most of the time... But the oleo struts along with struts mounted to the rotor blades absorb a lot of this nasty vibration. And that's why Helicopter pilot's fillings last at least one year these days!

Back to this ground resonance thing. So when the machine is running (Shaking) it is shaking through a lot of things (You, the fuselage, the landing gear, and oleo struts) which are all absorbing this shaking. The fuselage cracks over time relieving it's stress. Pilots have blood vessels breaking, aneurisms and things like that, which also relieves some of this vibration. The landing gear gets replaced often enough so I won't even count that. And those oleo struts get checked on post flights, daily servicing, and pre-flights. No chance they could fail in flight due to say a 2 mile high pressure change or getting banged off a mountain side a couple dozen times. Nope, they SHOULD be OK!

But if they aren't OK and at the end of the day you decide to do something, like, let's say, land! Well if you do that and maybe touch down just a bit funny, you could have a problem. Aerodynamically, I can't quantify "Funny" but as an instructor pilot if you did it, I'd say, "That landing was a bit funny," And you'd understand.

OK so you landed a bit funny and when you did you translated a bit of that humor up through the landing gear, along the fuselage, across your buttox, upward to where all the turning meets all the stationary stuff, and, well if luck isn't with you...or if it's this helicopter's time of the month (They are all female!) well if all that happens then one of those flyin' diving boards might move a tiny bit out of that balanced 120 degree separation.

That isn't a good thing. Nothing good has ever come from that. In all RHH (Recorded helicopter history) there has never been known to be anything good about blades out of phase...nothing!

So the unbalanced and upset rotor systems responds negatively. It pushes back a pulse. Ya know it's like the other night in bed, the wife and I were all cuddled watching shark tank. The mood was good, the show was interesting and it was just nice. As she snuggled into me, and I reached around and pinched a wee bit of fat. Just a small thing really. Wouldn't have registered on the marriage rector scale at all I would have thought, let alone lead to the San Francisco quake of 1908 (Was it 1908??) OK so I slept in the guest bedroom wondering what happened, but really just happy that most of my hearing was still intact!

Rotor blades out of phase are like that. So this push back ends up in the ground which says, "Yo Helicopter, you pushin' on me? You know I don't like you in the first place. Allow me to diverge. In my book I explain the real reason helos fly. Not because of all this mumbo-jumbo aerodynamic hype, Nope that stuff is just not true! The truth is that the earth repels the ugly shaking thing with crew chiefs in the back which are always peeing all over the ground. It repels the helo, pushing it away into the air, ya know to get rid of it, like an unwelcome guest.

Well when this pulse from the outta' phase blade hits terra firma and the ground swings back, and a fight starts. The pulse from the ground pushes that blade a bit more out of phase which generates an even bigger force. Pilots can't react because they have just expired from coronary failure. So the resulting fight between the ground and the helicopter just tears the helo apart and the ground wins...every time.

It all happens in just seconds and survivors of the coronary often regain consciousness and find themselves wondering where their helicopter went, and why did it leave them sitting here in the middle of this smoking scrap heap.

That's ground resonance. Bad for helos, bad for the earth, and as I discovered last night, bad for marriages!
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Offline cudakidd53

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2016, 04:20:25 PM »
I experienced ground resonence last Sat. when the Mrs. went upstairs in a huff?  How many hours of flight training have I logged I wonder?!?
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Offline Wilbur

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2016, 03:40:30 PM »
This is really cool. I love learning about stuff like this....well "learning" might be a bit of a stretch for me...I like reading about it!....I get the pitch part on the blades and how lift on one side would exceed the other...I get the gyroscope part....the ground resonance I need to work on a bit. Thanks for sharing this!

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2016, 03:03:14 PM »
Great explanations, Don! Care to enlighten us a little more on retreating blade stall and counter-rotational torque? Whirlybirds have always fascinated me! Such complex machines, especially when compared to fixed wing aircraft.
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2016, 07:13:28 PM »
Great explanations, Don! Care to enlighten us a little more on retreating blade stall and counter-rotational torque? Whirlybirds have always fascinated me! Such complex machines, especially when compared to fixed wing aircraft.
We just did retreating blade stall...

The standard annual aerodynamics questions that most pilots see on a check ride are
Retreating Blade stall
Effects of Compressibility
Explain lift
Translating tendency
Dynamic roll over
Ground Resonance
Blade flapping
Blade hunting
Explain three types of drag
Height velocity chart
and a few things like that
Then we do Aeromedical factors such as:
The anatomy of the eye
Stress Factors
Hypoxia and a hundred other subjects
Me being the instructor pilot, I get to ask those questions like 40 times a year...Yup, gets old

Now the check rides I took while flying jets is a whole bunch more difficult. Those guys are fanatics. We would pull up a schematic of the AC electrical system and the instructor would ask, so you have a failure of the No.1 Transformer rectifier...What systems do you lose, and which do you still have?
Lots of stuff like that...Intense is definitely a word that applies!
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Offline cj7ox

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2016, 11:28:47 AM »
I guess since the passenger jets are so computerized, it's more like operating a space craft? LOL! Those "jet" questions you gave as examples sound like something from the space program!
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2016, 12:04:42 PM »
There's a lot of strange stuff about aviation you wouldn't suspect.

Like

In a jet in flight, did you know all the air you breath inside came from one of the engines! Yup the propulsion engines obviously compress a whole lot of air. We bleed off a small portion and send it to the PACs. Pac: Pressurization and air conditioning unit. That 500+ degree air rushes inside an aluminum tube to the pac where it goes through a heat exchanger, delivering air of the desired temperature through the gaspers over head. Those things which you adjust to play cool air onto your knoggin...Gaspers. More air enters through vents. All of that is sucked forward into the cockpit where it is pulled off to cool all the avionics up there and in the planes belly just under the cockpit. From there it travels aft finally into two big valves where in a controlled manner, it exits back to the atmosphere, maybe fifty miles from where it was slammed into those air breathers!

Not some NACA scoop on the side sucking in air, then slamming it into your face, nossir, we are not that crude. Russian stuff, yea, probably is that crude, but not our well maintained, although highly diseased western aluminum tubes.
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Offline cj7ox

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2016, 12:14:53 PM »
I kinda figured that was the fact. Makes sense, since the air flow while sitting on the tarmac pretty much sucks. High bypass turbo fans have plenty of air to spare, so why not vent some of that bypass air to the cockpit? Make sense. Lay some more on us!
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2016, 12:23:42 PM »
I kinda figured that was the fact. Makes sense, since the air flow while sitting on the tarmac pretty much sucks. High bypass turbo fans have plenty of air to spare, so why not vent some of that bypass air to the cockpit? Make sense. Lay some more on us!
Not the bypass air that you breath. That is used to shove grasshoppers and sand pipers through the cowling

You breath the tortured stuff that got cut, diced, tumbled, crushed, burned, and smashed by eight or more spinnin' vegamatics!
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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2016, 12:28:08 PM »
I kinda figured that was the fact. Makes sense, since the air flow while sitting on the tarmac pretty much sucks. High bypass turbo fans have plenty of air to spare, so why not vent some of that bypass air to the cockpit? Make sense. Lay some more on us!
Not the bypass air that you breath. That is used to shove grasshoppers and sand pipers through the cowling

You breath the tortured stuff that got cut, diced, tumbled, crushed, burned, and smashed by eight or more spinnin' vegamatics!
Hmm! That makes me wonder what kind of exhaust we're breathing. I am assuming there is some kind of scrubber before it hits the Gaspers?
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2016, 12:47:43 PM »
I kinda figured that was the fact. Makes sense, since the air flow while sitting on the tarmac pretty much sucks. High bypass turbo fans have plenty of air to spare, so why not vent some of that bypass air to the cockpit? Make sense. Lay some more on us!
Not the bypass air that you breath. That is used to shove grasshoppers and sand pipers through the cowling

You breath the tortured stuff that got cut, diced, tumbled, crushed, burned, and smashed by eight or more spinnin' vegamatics!
Hmm! That makes me wonder what kind of exhaust we're breathing. I am assuming there is some kind of scrubber before it hits the Gaspers?
Nope, no scrubber

You trust engineers, right?

they pull the highly compressed air right behind the compressor, before it gets polluted with hydro carbons. Be hard for exhaust to travel upstream against air moving maybe 600 MPH

But then there's this thing called Compressor Stall...YE Haw!
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Offline KensAuto

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2016, 01:11:41 PM »
So, if a sandpiper gets liquified, hows the , uh, blood and feathers keep from being inhaled downstream?


..I get it...that's how we get the bird flue!!
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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2016, 05:32:44 PM »
So, if a sandpiper gets liquified, hows the , uh, blood and feathers keep from being inhaled downstream?


..I get it...that's how we get the bird flue!!
:o :o :o ??? ??? ??? :o :o :o
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2016, 08:45:14 PM »
So, if a sandpiper gets liquified, hows the , uh, blood and feathers keep from being inhaled downstream?


..I get it...that's how we get the bird flue!!
Sand pipers like to hang out on runways

I think I told about this, but I was landing in Tri Cities, Bristol TN. I was standing up on the aft gear doing some cool guy aerodynamic braking. As I settled the nose gear down, I unlocked the reversers then started to milk in reverse thrust. I had it just about maxed and maybe still doing 100 knots when a whole bunch of Sand Pipers jump up in front of the aircraft. Well those CF-34's gobbled all of them that were near the aircraft up. I knew it, but the engines acted normally. I eased out of the power, back to idle and used the brakes to slow the rest of the way down.

Post flight told the story. Blood, guts, feathers and gore were plastered all over the side of the aircraft. The fan ingested then then flung them out of the open cowling where their parts experienced sudden stoppage against the shiny white paint.
The right engine had particularly voracious. There was one little guy crushed by the cowling having closed on what was left of him, the inside being trimmed nicely, but the head and neck still wearing that" What the heck" look!

It was a bad day for us. Maintenance came out and ran a borescope down into the fire breathing core section, and sure enough there was what they estimated to be parts of 4 birds. It had nicked some turbine blades, so yup, that engine was toast. We just went to the hotel. Timed out before they could fly down a replacement jet for us. But by morning that aircraft was already gone with a replacement engine!
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Re: Go-Pro on a rotor blade: why you don't want to fly in a helo!
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2016, 10:23:27 AM »
Nice!
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“The citizens of a free state ought to consist of those only who bear arms.” ~Aristotle

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