1991/1985 Suburban 2500 build and flip, again!

[JR]

Anyway, got the VE loaded in my little trailer since I have some work to do before the swap begins. Looks like I have the Ppump sold to a local shop (gave a deposit). Full asking price which just breaks me even, but $750 more then the VE cost, so its good. Going to make a quick soft top (conduit-tarp) for this little LUV trailer my brother and I made before he passed. I was going to donate it to the local scouts, but just never worked out which maybe for the better.

What sold me on this VE was it came with everything, even a fan which people think are made of gold wanting $200 for a used one!! Plus with the other adventures with the Ppump I am hearing of it is a better choice and will still make the 400hp or so I want with just the turbo and injectors.

Just stock, HC1 with a little shaft play but I have another from the Ppump, but plan on going to an HC35W anyway. Hopefully will get a lot of info from Norm on this.

Plus the buyer knows a good tranny man so the 46rh I have may just do the job just fine.

[JR]

Took a little ride with the boys to see the "glory hole" up on Lake Berryessa for a scouting award for my oldest. Rain has been good and the water level is up about 6 ft from this picture. Lake is down 35ft form it normal 300+ so not to bad.

Also had a little break with the Pinewood Derby that a buddy and I run after the RR of the track last year. Thats my youngest in the tan pants, he made it to the finals!

Was a great drive and got some cool pics, even a double rainbow heading up.

[Flyin6]

That lake is low!

I've seen the water level even with the intake...a hole in the water!

[EL TATE]

Looks like a blast there JR. ah the pinewood derby, good memories...

[JR]

I have seen it going over more than once. Other lakes in the area are less than 1/2 full so 10% down is not a huge deal.

[cj7ox]

Burb is looking really good, JR. Brings back memories of hunting and fishing trips with my grandfather, in his '73. I really miss than truck. Bare bones, vinyl seats, 1 speaker AM radio, no AC. Great times!

[swbhobie16]

What sold me on this VE was it came with everything, even a fan which people think are made of gold wanting $200 for a used one!! Plus with the other adventures with the Ppump I am hearing of it is a better choice and will still make the 400hp or so I want with just the turbo and injectors.

hey.. don't knock the PPump. mine runs just fine stuck in a 1 gal Gatorade bottle!!  ;D and it's not even in a truck. hahah

[JR]

Not knocking the Pp, just think I can get what I need better with the VE. Plus it is more user friendly, known for better starting and mileage.

Heck, I made $750 on the deal and got a motor with 1/2 the mileage on it. Just a fuel pin, spring and turbo kit and I get another 100hp fairly easy.

Right now on the agenda is getting it running again. I have the TB torn down and new HP injectors and a new dist for it now. Get it cleaned up a little more with the new seats, lift and tires as I get the last few items for the swap and have the tranny done. Found anpther local guy who does the dodge trannys so looks like the 46rh will be final tranny.

[swbhobie16]

you talking about getting the old gasser running again..? some of those acronyms weren't registering in my diesel dictionary. hahah. do you have a tcase for the 46? were you lucky enough to have bought it with the 205 bolted to it..? my VE is incredibly reliable. cranks on less than 1 revolution, running the old 3 speed with who knows what TC, HX35 turbo and 2nd gen IC in it and im still getting 16 mpg. need to do a 3600 GSK on it at some point. the focus has been in the 715 as of late. it's hard to mess with a running truck. hahah

getting a killer deal on a complete VE.. no one can pass that up. well done

[JR]

Yep, the 350 is solid and running great. Will run it like that like I said but will be driving the S10 for awhile as I won't be able to climb into anything in a few weeks, for a month or so. It has a 4L80E in it now that looks new to what I think is a 241. This thing is all manual now but I will install remote locks.

The 46 I have came mated with the 205, so I am good. You can't find a better HD Tcase IMHO for what we drive.

Just ordered a fuel pin and 3200 spring. I see the HX35 on ebay for under $300, but think they are chinese copies. Rather buy a real one, weren't they stock on some 98's?

Thought I found a IC, but its off a 93 ford, not a 99-03 SD and it sounds to narrow. I need it around 34 wide to go around the radiator.

[swbhobie16]

fairly certain the 35s were from 94-98. and a 2nd gen IC is plenty wide enough to fit. I'll measure mine when I get back home and can let you know. I picked up my 35 from a guy in CL (same guy i bought the IC from) I drove down after i had installed the IC and capped off the inlet and outlets. he installed in for $300 total. seemed like a deal. and it is a holset. just do some CL searching. you got lucky finding the 205 on the back of the trans. in my experience.. they're almost impossible to find to fit the spline count of the autos.

[swbhobie16]

after alittle interwebzz search.. 95-98 manuals were the 8 blade hx35s and 99-02 manuals were the 7 blade hx35s. I think what you have is the big H1C from an intercooled 1st gen (91.5-93) the 94s had WH1Cs..

please.. correct me if I'm wrong.

[JR]

I was looking at the SD Ics as they are wide and tall. How deep is the dodge IC?

Thacks for the lead on the turbo, will start looking.

The PP I had came with 2 HC1s, one had a wg, one did not. Sold the W with the PP, so I still have 2 HC1s now so selling those should offset the HX35w some.

[swbhobie16]

the 2nd dodges are freakin stout. wider than a powerstroke I think. they're 2.5"'deep too I believe. I have one that had a crack in it if you know a tug guy.. also the truck it came out of blew all kinds of oil into it. but it's a solid unit. too bad you aren't closer. 

I hope I'm right on the turbos. I'm hoping the PPump you sold was a 94, and my original findings are validated. hahah. I'll see if I can get a pic of my tag when I get back. my dads didn't have tag on it, and it's not waste gated. but has 8 blades and is definitely larger than the baby H1C that came off my 89. I know mine spools to 34 psi in 2nd with an unknown age or mileage torque converter.. hahah

[JR]

Did a quick search and found 2 for $200 each. Waiting on replies now. Heck if I can get $100 for each of my HC1s I break even.

What you did they change flange sizes? I see the later years have a single inlet and the early like mine have a split.

For the IC I am limited on depth and like to stay around 2 in. I still have to relocate 2 smaller coolers when I do that. 

[swbhobie16]

 I THINK the flange on mine is split. the guy I bought it from said I needed to open the waste gate and drill out the divider with a slightly smaller drill bit bc it only waste gates on 3 cylinders if you don't.. I didn't bc I have the waste gate shut down. (which I would recommend.. adjustable boost elbow. has a 'set screw' to adjust how much vacuum is pulled to actuate the gate. pretty simple $15 part) my dads doesn't have a gate.. so it's shorter front to back than a gated one. also, looked at the 2nd gen ones.. they're about 2" deep. we got a universal IC that's 31" long (outlet to outlet) x 13x3" with all sorts of couplers and piping to get it in and out nicely. I think the 2nd gen is around 17" tall..

[JR]

Yep, plan on the elbow but want to keep boost to 30psi so I don't have to stud it.

That second gen might work but I hear the SD is better, but not there yet. I will have to compare for sure.

I just scored a HX35w on CL for 220 shipped. Think thats pretty good. Love all the guys who upgrade and dump their good parts. Fairly certain I need a 90 turn down for it, but a long way from seeing the clearance issue in mine vs all the others I have read about.

[swbhobie16]

what 90 turn down are you talking about..? the elbow off the turbo itself? you don't have one on your engine and/or the one you just nabbed? I've seen them.. but they were about $75 a piece..

[JR]

I have what looks like a 75 now but think I need a 90. Time will tell.

[swbhobie16]

should be fine with that. I would get a 2nd gen intake though, either from a cummins or decent 3" pipe aftermarket unit to replace the older 1st gen intake. just increase some airflow. since yours already came from an IC'd truck, your throttle bracket isn't attached to the intake horn.. so that eliminates another piece you'd have to track down. hahah. if you don't want to buy an intake, with some simple hardware and fab skills, you can easily thrown together a flange and weld on a 3" curved piece that will be perfect. the 2nd gen hot and cold air pipes are 3". if you can find an IC with pipe and couplings included.. that'll be your best bet. if almost bet $$ that the engine bay of your 'burb and my 1st are the same size.. meaning the piping would fit on yours just like mine.

[JR]

I will get a nice full flow intake horn. Same thing Don did later to his when he was prodded earlier in the thread.

[JR]

So how about we get a motor recipe going here. 92 6BT VE with intercooler, automatic w/od, 4.11 gears, 36 in tires. As it sits it is bone stock, but that will not do. I do not want to go crazy either. I have a 3200 spring and fuel pin on the way.

Thinking of a HX35w keeping the boost to 30psi. (other ideas?)

Injectors vs nozzles?

Other ideas?

[swbhobie16]

I think you're on the right path with the spring and pin. can easily bump the timing a hair by rotating the VE on the timing covering housing. I think I heard that the non IC injectors are alittle more HP than the stock IC injectors. or you could go with 370 marine ones. don't know how crazy you're trying to go. mine pulls pretty hard, and like I said it had a TC of unknown age as well as 3.07s.. so your gearing and TC alone will make it night and day different. IF you can find one.. a 94/95 47rh will be even sweeter on the hwy with the locking TC and the tcase and all will fit right on it. you can build it with the 46 just fine and be looking for a 47rh. it will only add roughly 1" to your total drivetrain (thicker engine adapter) but that can happen later down the road. and the transfer case spline coupler will fit the trans and can keep the rear output seal if you machine down the forward 1-1.5" of the coupler. I'll get pics and specs of that once I get back home.) just a thought..

[JR]

I have both the adapters and starters. If I go to another tranny though it would be the 48 converted to a "H"

New injectors are only about 100 more than injectors and then you know they are all good.

Not looking for crazy, just very solid. However, when I push the go peddle, scary can be fun.

[swbhobie16]

is that possible..? 48 to an H? I thought you'd have to replace the valve body and overdrive unit. seemed more feasible to just overbuild the 47 to take anything the 48 could take..?

[swbhobie16]

..and I have a mustang for 'scary when you press the go pedal'. hahah

[JR]

Just as the 47 is better than the 46, same for the 48 to 47. And the internals are better. OD is done with a pressure switch and relay, info on a few sights.

Last quote I got was around 4k for the 48!!!!!!!!!!!!

[swbhobie16]

I found all that info.. but thought it pertained to the 47 only. interesting. I picked up a 47 in NY that supposedly only has 10k miles from dodge for $800. and another with unknown mileage for $400 in Maryland. I think I may have a problem.. hahah

[JR]

Perhaps it is as you say, it has been awhile since I did all the research. Upgrading the internals is the big $$ for the billet shaft and gears that go with it.

Sounds like with those trannys you need more vehicles,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[swbhobie16]

Perhaps it is as you say, it has been awhile since I did all the research. Upgrading the internals is the big $$ for the billet shaft and gears that go with it.

Sounds like with those trannys you need more vehicles,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

it might be.. just didn't want to step on any toes. hahah. from what I gathered the 47RHs can be made as strong as any 48 without the hassle of a TCM and can still be controlled with either 2 pressure switched for LU and OD or pactrans (I think) makes a stand alone controller for LU and OD for maybe $2-300. which in the event of an EMP strike, could easily be taken out and substituted for toggle or pressure switches for full control (Don) but you'd still have 1, 2 and 3 just like an old 727..

[Flyin6]

Perhaps it is as you say, it has been awhile since I did all the research. Upgrading the internals is the big $$ for the billet shaft and gears that go with it.

Sounds like with those trannys you need more vehicles,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

That is a fact!
Going to all billet on the inside of mine in square D tripled the cost of the build!

[swbhobie16]

Perhaps it is as you say, it has been awhile since I did all the research. Upgrading the internals is the big $$ for the billet shaft and gears that go with it.

Sounds like with those trannys you need more vehicles,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

That is a fact!
Going to all billet on the inside of mine in square D tripled the cost of the build!

and yet.. sadly.. it had no effect on its ability to perform  :'(

sorry don.. just had to do it. hahah
 now.. back to the previously scheduled show.

(and get that fuel pressure up.. I wanna a hear it run  ;D)

[JR]

What, Don has a truck to get running?

[JR]

My turbo deal fell through so may hold off for now. I keep reading on either upgrading the the HC1 or going HX35.

[swbhobie16]

best part is.. you can build it like it is and when you find a 35.. just swap it right out. all your plumbing will be correct and if it's a waste gated 35.. it'll only push the downpipe back an inch or so. but yours may be waste gated alread.. I which case it shouldn't do anything to it. try and find a whole parts truck the guy is just offloading and grab from the turbo to the intake from it. should be cheaper than piecing together a whole setup. unless you need to get a smaller IC. what other coolers are you having to run..? power steering and AC condenser?

[JR]

I have another I was looking at. Still not bad at $250, but think I can get it a little less. Downpipe is no issue, don't have one yet.

AC will stay as it is, the PS and Oil can be adjusted,,,,,,,,,,,

Kinda why I want a PS cooler vs a dodge as I think it is slimmer.

[OldKooT]

Gee ya all are busy LoL....

Don't take any advice from me:

Turbo: S300....On a heavy Auto truck I'd likely run a 52mm wheel...it will kill a HX 35 in how it drives/performs. You can go larger, but it's enough turbo for 400hp. Set the gate to 40psi and motor along happily.

Injectors: Well everyone has an approach, and some work better than others in combinations. I'd run OEM until it became obvious your needing more fuel. My guess you won't.

The PS cooler is the best option for a 4x4 durability wise. It also seems to outflow the 2nd gen airflow wise in my experiments. The trade off, is it's not as good at scrubbing EGT's, but less than a 100 degree difference on the same combination. Likely because it flows the air faster, less time to cool it....I have no idea which fits the Chevy best.

Intake/exhaust flow...this is where the VE can really be massaged. Much of the HP increase you see in sec gen trucks from the factory was the better intake horn/intercooler/than the 1st gen stuff. Pay close attention to air flow into/through/out like any other engine. This is cheap/easy HP and as a bonus your "on throttle" time extends as well.  People have made 500hp with a OEM 2nd gen intake horn as an example...simple is cheap/works.

Pump tuning... well this is a variable as each is a bit different.

Auto tranny: I'd not spend much for the lock up features personally. Nor would I spend much on bulletproof Billet components. A stock rebuild of a 518 with your normal HD upgrades found in latter year transmissions combined with a quality converter will be just fine. If you need more transmission than that, you should rethink how you drive/use the truck. I have about killed the present trans in Patch and it's got over 100K of towing stupid heavy trailers, getting constantly stuck in mud and snowplowing, oh and some truck pulling. I  am sure I do more terrible stuff to my truck in a week than most could in a year...and I have no problems with transmissions. Just make sure it stays cool...and has big fat 1/2 cooler lines and motor along. This assumed you have a properly rebuilt 518 =P

With a auto trans/4.10's and a 35" tire (goodyear mil rubber is 35" actual) your going to be fine. You may sacrifice some economy due to the 4.10's but it's a wash as 3.54's and a auto with 35" is a bit tall for stop/n go city stuff...so yah. Especially in a fat Burb. Pay CLOSE attention to selecting a converter that is not "too tight" The OEM Dodge is slightly "too loose"

It's a VE: You have a big large bill board of a truck. It will NOT win drag races against modern diesels. It will not smoke the tires off with a AUTO and that weight. It will not get 25mpg, and it will not be any fun if you build/treat it like a P pump. What it will do is provide smooth reliable "working" HP at levels that may surprise you, while managing decent economy for your combination.

Just remember, Dyno numbers mean almost nothing. You can't drive a truck WOT in one gear for a few seconds and describe it as a functional truck.

I recently pulled a trailer about 9500lbs up a MT pass at 60mph while getting passed by modern oil burners pulling lighter snowmobile trailers. But nearing the top they were all slowed down I am guessing EGT warnings going off on their fancy Aluminum engines. I just looked at my Pyro hovering at 1200 smiled and drove around them...I had been at 1200 for 20 minutes. That's "workable" power. It's how I feel any VE should be tuned...





















 

[swbhobie16]

I'll gladly now out..  ;) hahah

[JR]

Norm, just some of the info I wanted to hear about. Sean, don't go anywhere, the more the merrier!! Your talk of how you like the VE and Dons issues made me go back to the VE. In fact I was a little setback when I did get rid of the first one and been looking for that deal when this popped up.

As said I am not looking for a hot rod by any means, but do want it to go when told to do so. Plus I like the idea of keeping my 46, just building it up.

Actually I think the 80s GM truck are quite clean for a squared off design and I love the classic look.

Has it stopped snowing there yet?

[swbhobie16]

I'm guessing this 'Sean' you're referring to is me. not that I care.. but my name is Seth. hahah. just so long as I know what I'm going by.. I'm good. hahah

having the VE in a running truck, I'm sayinf it's great. the PPump is running just fine under no load, but haven't really put it through its paces either. Im going to push my dad into having the trans looked at before it goes in the truck. just bc I don't want to have to pull it back out again once it's in there.. easier now than ever.

[swbhobie16]

and I badly want to have an old square body crew cab. either that, or if I can get my hands on a 1st gen crew cab..

first and foremost.. just need to get back home and crackin on the 715.9 wagladiator..

[OldKooT]

Yah it hasn't snowed in a few days. Now it's 40 degrees and mud everywhere. It's thawing so fast my driveway is "gone" I'd have to winch to get to the shop and that's not a exaggeration. 50 degrees Sunday they claim...I have just accepted I will be buying $4k worth of rock/gravel to fix this mess.

I think be it P pump or VE if one falls into the trap of "dyno tunes/combinations" one can build himself a rather expensive headache.

I often explain to people, it makes no difference what pump you run.... a engine can only process fuel/air as good as it's components allow. A P pump has as much fuel as you want to tune it for...but you will have to tune to the limits of yr head/turbo and over all combination. A VE pump may not as easily produce the fueling, but the same rules apply in either direction. The engines use the same basic head/bottom end and components....Where the VE has an edge I feel is drive-ability coupled with simplicity.

If one was to use a analogy...the VE is a lot like a Quadrajet or a Thermoquad.. both excellent carbs, both require a understanding to make them work as well as they can. Once dialed in, they are hard to improve on in a daily driven vehicle. The P pump is like a old double pumper Holly...They always win on a dyno or a straight line drag race...they don't always win while cruising around the A&W AND going fast.

see it's simple=)

[KensAuto]

Now that's an analogy I've used before! (Qjets vs Holley)

[stlaser]

Another thing our youth is missing out on. Trying to get a Holley to run on a cold morning going to work. Nothing like sitting along side the road with the hood up, air cleaner off & numb fingers..... ;)

[Sammconn]

^and the extra jets in the glove box when it was really bad!

[stlaser]

I knew someone besides me had been there....... ;D

[JR]

Sorry about that Seth, took a wild shot and missed,,,,,,,,,,

Good analogy, I loved the quadrajet!! It even worked on hills really well.

Think I would rather have snow or rain, I hate the sludge that morphs from snow melting.

[cudakidd53]

Try a triple duce set-up, with vacuum actuated secondaries!  Voodoo plain and "simple"......

[OldKooT]

Oh yeah.... NOTHING runs like a Mopar six pack when it's tuned and working as it should. Mind you that's not as often as one would like LoL  But the sound of those vac operated outboard carbs opening and the wail of a well tuned wedge at WOT are things no man should miss experiencing in my opinion.

To that end just recently I vowed to build a six pack wedge for my personal amusement, and continuing education of my Grandsons. I after all have to do my part in educating our youth.

Besides I can justify this, as those old six packs when properly tuned were even semi economical to drive. Unless you drive like Kurt does...A truck he's owned since new, and drives daily as a work truck. 500ci six pack commuter LoL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly_whk7Ixaw&feature=youtu.be

[JR]

Sorta like the quad with its vacuum secondaries and small primaries.

I used to tick off bobtail drivers and bend the tab out of the way that unlocked the secondaries. Truck ran fine but they couldn't blow it up.