REAL MAN TRUCKWORKS & SURVIVAL
VEHICLES, CAMPERS, and BOATS => Build Threads => Topic started by: OldKooT on April 07, 2016, 11:01:37 AM
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Today Day 1: I called Tate and ordered a few parts and didn't have any convulsions or regrets at spending $$ so that's a great sign my motivation is alive and well.
I have a bare frame sitting in the shed that is about half painted and stripped of even the suspension mounting brackets. I was so thrilled last Summer with my new rivet removal tool (big honking air hammer) I may have removed things just for the fun of it. Anyway on the upside, I can make the claim this is a frame up rebuild...because that is where we are starting.
Since it won't warm up and be spring like here I can't really finish painting yet. So....lacking a real shop because well that's the next project (I know a bit backwards) I am going to start with punting junk around in the shed and making room. Maybe spend time devising a easy way to move the frame around when it gets time to paint/assemble.
Man this thread is already a bummer...I promise I will paint a caliper or something and spice this up in the near future.
Anyway, here is a truck (not mine) that generates a vision of what color it will be.
(http://i.imgur.com/BSY3Otx.jpg)
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The above posted picture represents a OEM starting point..... from that we need to create a durable off road friendly and highway happy platform. Think a tractor that can run along a 90mph with the new fancy pickups.
Weight: Less it weighs the better. I expect a fair amount of gear, a bed mounted tent possibly, camping equipment, mid weight towing capabilities, and again it has to handle off road trails. So many expo rigs get to a point they are so heavy, and unbalanced, where they can go off road is limited heavily. I fully intend this truck to go where it will physically fit. This will not be a crawler, but it will have to deal with rocks, it won't be a mudder, but it's going to see plenty of mud, it will not be a river truck, but it will cross hood deep water and, well you get the idea.
Think Camel trophy meets Ultimate adventure, and some blend of in between.
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cool, now I understand....... ;D
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Yah Yah I know not a wheeling truck...LoL But I am getting to that age in my life where I really enjoy going places that don't have a dozen other rigs tackling a obstacle. I have always subscribed to the concept that the real challenge off road is conquering the trail, despite it's level of difficulty, while enjoying the experience and nature. So this rig is all about getting back to those days when we had a load of fun doing just that.
That said in it's last incarnation it got around ok for a pig of a truck. It's still much smaller than today's pickups and way lighter. I hope to improve on that this go around. All in all, this won't be too fancy of a build. Just a simple strong foundation for adventure.
Somewhere in Idaho many years ago after 9 hours of amazing snow and scenery.
(http://i.imgur.com/G3Nmpxy.jpg)
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Nice! I too am over the trucks that I tended to lay on their side or even endo. I do miss standing it up on its rear wheels every once in awhile I must admit! ;D I know I haven't given it much love on the jk build thread but as soon as a couple projects are completed (one for storage & one for mom to sun bath on) I will be going full speed on a similar build with the jk......
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heres your original thread in case you want to link it to this one?
http://real-man-truckworks-and-survival.com/index.php?topic=724.0
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Sub'd
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^^^Sorry, had to do that!
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Stormin, Norman,
Love it. Excellent color choice
I have wanted to see you finish that BLD (Big Long Dodge) since you, err, I mean, Kay started it what a year ago.
Hmmm, have to laugh at myself
Get it? Finish it???!!!
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Start it.....it's got a REALLY nice finish already.
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It's a bare frame and a ugly almost no paint left on it cab...anything we do is "finishing" LoL
On the color: The truck I posted a pic of is the same color as ours, but it's clearly a gloss finish. Our truck was shipped a semi gloss finish. The vote around here so far, is it will remain semi gloss.
Also, it's likely it will have a step side bed. That would lend it's self much more to off road use than the fleet-side bed it came with.
6400lbs completed is the goal.
50 gallons fuel capacity minimal.
20mpg or very close
Crowd sourcing: I NEED one passenger side rear Dodge step-side fender. I also need one passenger side mint rust free crew cab rear door. Feel free to keep your eyes open and contact me if you have any leads on these parts.
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Nice sounding project, Norm!
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I vote mil style bed, on 52s...oh, and six doors.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1600r20-Goodyear-At3a-Take-Off-90-52-Tires-Monster-Truck-Military-Tire-/291730191356
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I owned a set of those tires once...... ;D
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I love the idea of what the truck will be built to do, a little of everything well or better. Color is right on too.
I know it adds weight, but I always invisioned one with a utility bed. I mean we always carry so much, why not plan for that from the start?
I keep seeing this on CL in Reno. I think it is a tailgate 1500 version is a turnoff;
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JR that's a pretty good deal looks like.
LoL @52" rubber....I will be pretty excited if I can wedge 38" rubber under it. Now if I sell those Hutchinson's, I could see myself buying 40" rubber and force fitting them LoL But I dunno....I like that it fits in parking garages on 38" rubber. But time will tell...
first step... frame paint, springs/axles. I spent tonight digging through my NOS OEM Spicer pile and came up with some 35 spline stub axles...inner tube seals, and assorted bearings races/seals. That should work for now to keep me busy. Hopefully I can sort out my front spring selection and get those ordered, and then start working on the rear end.
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Bigger rubber just means more fender trimming...... :o
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Bigger rubber just means more fender trimming...... :o
Kaiser saw this, and took a sawzall to a set of wagoneer fenders and made a 44" diameter fender on the 715.. just sayin ;D
satin/semi gloss looks amazing on those trucks. dad painted his yesterday, about to head out and check the color.
and those 12 valve 'burb looks awesome. would make for a great expedition vehicle. so much room for activities!!
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The Ramcharger has 37" rubber a 4" or so spring and fender stretching, as well as the front axle slid forward 1.5" 38" is about the limit and still have a suspension that moves. If you removed the entire inner fender, slid the axle forward 2.5" and cut a lot you may get to 40" before the firewall gets in the way. Again assuming you want the front springs to actually move. Just the nature of a 1st gen Dodge.
I can get anything done with 38" rubber a 40" tire can do, so it's not a huge deal. The other limitation I am working with is low range gearing. With a 38" tire roughly speaking 3.73-4.10 gears are about right. 4.56 is better for slower speed work but too deep for 85mph freeway speeds...so in the end I am most likely going to stay in the 3.73-4.10 range which with the 5spd gearing will work fine.
The OTHER limitation is if I use the 16" Hutchinson's, my decent radial mud terrain rubber choices are somewhat limited. Again 38" being about the ceiling.
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Norm it's not the tire size it's the driver. I saw my buddy (elderly guy from SE Ky) with a beat up ol EB on bald 35" boggers that each had 3 cases of plugs in per tire to keep air in them go places a custom tube chassis purpose built crawler on 44's couldn't go. Driver can make up for vehicle limitations.......
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Kooter, you had 40s on the last green truck didn't you...or 42s maybe...the one in that pic up there^^^
I know you talked about it a while back, but icr.
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Yeah ST I agree. This truck and I have 120K+ miles of traveling and wheeling together already. It's been over the Rubicon, most of Moab and Colorado in it's previous configuration of 38" rubber, locked diffs and a healthy big block. It's been to Pismo and Silver lake dunes, Wis mud, and the Smokey Mt's even a bit. So I have a fair idea what it can and can't do.
With some modern touches and a rebuild, it should be capable enough for our needs. It's just about getting it done and driving LoL
That's part of the reason I am going with a stepside bed this go around. I was forever knocking the tail lights out of the original bed on dirt banks, and rocks and trees and whatever else it brushed against in a an attempt to maneuver a large truck places it would fit, but maybe shouldn't. The stepside bed is just a ancient form of dove tailing as I see it. LoL
The issues we had with the truck were Dana 60 front pinion shaft breakage. Many a bent/destroyed tie rod...fuel tank damage. And a few stub axles/lockouts in the front axle. Most of the tie rods came from submerged stumps in Colorado mudholes back before they paved such trails as holy cross and other fun destinations. The OEM Dodge tie rod will flex and bend if you look at it cross eyed. I upgraded to chromo tube stuff and it survived much better, but still bent on occasion.
Part of the reason I want it light as possible for it's bulk is I would really prefer to keep a front 60 under it. But I have promised myself if I break a pinion shaft again, it's getting a 14 bolt front with RCV's. I am sure it will be a constantly evolving project...
First step get it on the road, Sec step outfit it for expo type use. Third step fix all the mistakes from step 1 and 2 and enjoy it.
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6400lbs completed is the goal.
I have no idea how you will keep it that light!
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Ken... it ran 38" Swampers or 38 Michelin XML's depending where it was going. In this video ya can see it with the swampers on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a0uJanyryA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a0uJanyryA) In the icy wettest snow I have ever managed to find, right in the driveway LoL A friend had planted his Jeep Scrambler on 35" rubber/locked and we were trying to extract him.
I watch that and grin, man that big inch Wedge could spin up. I remember the recall on the tack saying 7200 rpm or so after we were done. That 727 saw a workout that day also... For those interested that motor dynoed at 637hp on pump gas. It's still with us...it sits on a stand pickled for the "next" thing I toss it into.
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6400lbs completed is the goal.
I have no idea how you will keep it that light!
Helium blended into the radiator and transmission fluid
Oh, and light weight clothing for Norm and Kay
Duh... ;-))
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Well Phil... it will be a challenge. But it weighed in right at 5470 back in the day. I truck pulled it frequently in the 5500lb class. The Cummins will be a few hundred heavier than the wedge I imagine. The stepside will drop a few hundred over the fleetside box...so that should about even out. Winch/bumpers will add weight..aluminum wheels will drop weight... bottom line it may weigh more, but I intend to pay close attention to weight while building it.
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Norm what about dropping on of those old military trailers in place of a bed?
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Yeah ST I agree. This truck and I have 120K+ miles of traveling and wheeling together already. It's been over the Rubicon, most of Moab and Colorado in it's previous configuration of 38" rubber, locked diffs and a healthy big block. It's been to Pismo and Silver lake dunes, Wis mud, and the Smokey Mt's even a bit. So I have a fair idea what it can and can't do.
With some modern touches and a rebuild, it should be capable enough for our needs. It's just about getting it done and driving LoL
That's part of the reason I am going with a stepside bed this go around. I was forever knocking the tail lights out of the original bed on dirt banks, and rocks and trees and whatever else it brushed against in a an attempt to maneuver a large truck places it would fit, but maybe shouldn't. The stepside bed is just a ancient form of dove tailing as I see it. LoL
The issues we had with the truck were Dana 60 front pinion shaft breakage. Many a bent/destroyed tie rod...fuel tank damage. And a few stub axles/lockouts in the front axle. Most of the tie rods came from submerged stumps in Colorado mudholes back before they paved such trails as holy cross and other fun destinations. The OEM Dodge tie rod will flex and bend if you look at it cross eyed. I upgraded to chromo tube stuff and it survived much better, but still bent on occasion.
Part of the reason I want it light as possible for it's bulk is I would really prefer to keep a front 60 under it. But I have promised myself if I break a pinion shaft again, it's getting a 14 bolt front with RCV's. I am sure it will be a constantly evolving project...
First step get it on the road, Sec step outfit it for expo type use. Third step fix all the mistakes from step 1 and 2 and enjoy it.
Did I mention a buddy of mine from NE IN dad designed the front 60? Worked for Dana in Fort Wayne for years. Was a mechanical savant if there is such a thing. Unfortunately he pass just a couple months ago from complications from a stroke. Back ten years ago when we were heavy building tube chassis crawlers (I was helping his son build one in fact) we emailed him a copy of the Dana 60 bible assembled by that Canadian pilot guy (also very nice guy). Anyhow Dick Cleveland (savant) reads the 60 bible & his only response was "I don't think they said one bad thing about the 60". He then clarified to us & he was the guy who did all the hp/torque testing on it & different gear ratios etc. stated that the down side to the 60 is if you put enough hp/torque to it the pinion will walk the ring gear being its only bearing supported at one end unlike say a ford 9" or as you stated 14 bolt.
With all that stated cryoing the gear set may be an option to help you out over long term.
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Well Phil... it will be a challenge. But it weighed in right at 5470 back in the day. I truck pulled it frequently in the 5500lb class. The Cummins will be a few hundred heavier than the wedge I imagine. The stepside will drop a few hundred over the fleetside box...so that should about even out. Winch/bumpers will add weight..aluminum wheels will drop weight... bottom line it may weigh more, but I intend to pay close attention to weight while building it.
Well I don't know what kind of material your trucks are made of but I wish my RC was that light!!!
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Well Phil... it will be a challenge. But it weighed in right at 5470 back in the day. I truck pulled it frequently in the 5500lb class. The Cummins will be a few hundred heavier than the wedge I imagine. The stepside will drop a few hundred over the fleetside box...so that should about even out. Winch/bumpers will add weight..aluminum wheels will drop weight... bottom line it may weigh more, but I intend to pay close attention to weight while building it.
When I had the driveline out for the frame boxing, I weighed the Cummins and the 518 together, both were still full of oil and the scale was showing 1260lbs which is about 160lbs more than the 440 727 setup. Adding the Cummins is not a big weight penalty. If you forgo the winch, big bumpers, roof rack, sound deadener, spare fuel tank you know all the stuff that's kind of nice to have for expo stuff it should be pretty light.
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Reminds me of a time I went hunting with pops and the snow was up to the axles. That is a lot to dig through. If that was your house it was some gorgeous area!!
Then I believe I saw a Koot sighting!!!!!! Kay rocking out on stage,
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LoL @ sighting, and I forgot about that video of Kay completely.
Phil that's useful info on the weight of the engine/tranny. Know any engineers that would enjoy calculating how much weight I can pull off the front wheels by setting the engine back 1.5"? And then moving the axle forward 2"? So a 3.5" change.
The truck will have a winch (kinda required) but I likely will use a PTO Ramsey if I can sort out a sensible way to run the winches driveshaft. The winch/pto shaft/box is lighter than a Warn 12K model. If I can't make that work how I like, I will swipe Kays 12K hydraulic LoL
Probably won't be a roof rack. I have the bed and back seat area I can use for gear, and hopefully that will be enough. In the event I need more room I may build a rack for above the bed at cab window height or something. The lower the center of gravity the better.
Mr Laser: That pinion gear climbing the ring gear has been evident in every pinion I have broken on a front 60. I have been tossing around doing the Dana 70 R&P/carrier swap into the front 60... or just building a front Dana 70 because it wouldn't take much effort really. Still time to think on that a bit....
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If you're gunna go 70 in a 60 why not just step up to a full blown 80? Friend of mine Scott Morris from Sunfire Off Road in Sunman IN. is doing custom 80's. I designed a special cover last fall that Glo is building for them. Just a thought on how to spend more of your money...... ;)
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Phil that's useful info on the weight of the engine/tranny. Know any engineers that would enjoy calculating how much weight I can pull off the front wheels by setting the engine back 1.5"? And then moving the axle forward 2"? So a 3.5" change.
Them engineers don't know anything trust me! I can tell you if you move that cummins back 1.5" your firewall will not like it much. Ill run some rough numbers for you this weekend,
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Norm, I'm sure you've seen me post about the local available crew... If not, there is an 84 rear passenger door that I believe to be in pretty good shape, only problem is it is attached to a 2wd longbox truck. If you want the price or pictures I can try to provide.
Also, glad to see this happening, as it is in lines with what we want to do.
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Is it really worth moving the engine/tranny back for a probably what would amount to a 200 shift? I can see moving the front axle for pan/wheel clearance as well as a longer wheelbase.
On those 60 you broke, bet you were running big meats just like the video.
What about LMC for the door or fender??
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Yah a Dana 80!!!!!! ;D
Then I'd need to go 40 spline and then...... nah I am going to keep this build sensible and sane.
I have exactly 2.5" between my firewall and the closest Cummins part wanting the same space. Moving it to the rear is as simple as drilling a few holes and such fun stuff. As for is it worth it...only Phil can say. I do think Dodge engineers were pretty smart... that said I don't have any faith they really spent much time redesigning much back in 89 when they came up with the idea. Most effort was spent what 1992? The bigger frames IC and so on....everyone knows they just stuck a backhoe engine in a old Dodge pickup and sold em LoL
I do need a door, I probably don't need a entire truck per say LoL
JR I can get fiberglass rear fenders for the stepside, but I like metal, they smash less easily in theory. I may end up with glass anyway... we shall see.
it's after 2am we just got back from dancing.... time to sleep for 3 hours and get back at it.
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Was Kay on stage again? She seemed to fit right in,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Yah a Dana 80!!!!!! ;D
Then I'd need to go 40 spline and then...... nah I am going to keep this build sensible and sane.
I have exactly 2.5" between my firewall and the closest Cummins part wanting the same space. Moving it to the rear is as simple as drilling a few holes and such fun stuff. As for is it worth it...only Phil can say. I do think Dodge engineers were pretty smart... that said I don't have any faith they really spent much time redesigning much back in 89 when they came up with the idea. Most effort was spent what 1992? The bigger frames IC and so on....everyone knows they just stuck a backhoe engine in a old Dodge pickup and sold em LoL
I do need a door, I probably don't need a entire truck per say LoL
JR I can get fiberglass rear fenders for the stepside, but I like metal, they smash less easily in theory. I may end up with glass anyway... we shall see.
it's after 2am we just got back from dancing.... time to sleep for 3 hours and get back at it.
1991.5 Norm...
That's what Square D is. Added an inter-cooler, as you very well know. Same IC through 93. Something else change about the truck in 92???
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Yah JR she's been on a stage or two in her life. Sat night she wasn't dancing on stage, she wailed her sax for some Pink Floyd covers the band did.
Don somewhere in 1992 Dodge increased the frame height on the standard cab Cummins trucks. The 91.5 wiring is unique to 91.5 also BTW LoL
So the 92 and newer are called big frame trucks and the others are small frame in Dodge circles.
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Yah JR she's been on a stage or two in her life. Sat night she wasn't dancing on stage, she wailed her sax for some Pink Floyd covers the band did.
Don somewhere in 1992 Dodge increased the frame height on the standard cab Cummins trucks. The 91.5 wiring is unique to 91.5 also BTW LoL
So the 92 and newer are called big frame trucks and the others are small frame in Dodge circles.
Wouldn't ya know it!
I own a "little" frame truck...
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Yah Patch is a "little frame" also... but that's good, it's lighter LoL Besides patch only breaks voltage regulators, the small frame is not a issue.
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So... I need to be able to rotate and move around the Crew's frame while this process begins in earnest to put this thing on the road.
What do you guys think of suspending the bare frame by a engine stand on each end? It would have to be better than the jackstands and Hutchinson bead locks presently holding it up LoL
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Should work...fine...maybe...
...might wanna hook them together somehow.
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Sounds like a good plan, attach the stands somehow. Angle would be perfect.
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Should work...fine...maybe...
...might wanna hook them together somehow.
can't wait for the pics to follow.. provided he wins the on going battle with technology and is able to upload some..
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HP 14t from T.O.R.C. w/ RCV's sounds like a solid plan, ya know, if you bust the regular front end.
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LoL Tate... my plan is to upgrade to some of you folks alloy shafts once completed, and see if I can ruin them. You know, proper farmer durability testing. I think keeping it geared 3.73 or 4.10 will help a little in the front ends durability struggle.
This a Pro Expo build... the focus is on stickers and expensive lights dun't ya know. :D
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LoL Tate... my plan is to upgrade to some of you folks alloy shafts once completed, and see if I can ruin them. You know, proper farmer durability testing. I think keeping it geared 3.73 or 4.10 will help a little in the front ends durability struggle.
This a Pro Expo build... the focus is on stickers and expensive lights dun't ya know. :D
20hp per sticker, 50 per light bar, gotta be at least 40' wide LED and make sure you put a manufacturer's sticker for every aftermarket part you have on the fender so everyone knows who your sponsors are!
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Sounds like Dons garage,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Not a lot exciting happening on the Crew Cab... but progress is being made. I am parting out other trucks to get pieces I desire/need and spending time thinking about the build "direction" while gathering parts.
Also some boxes arrived from Yukon gear, so I now have enough pieces to toss together a front 60 with all new components...so watch for that soon. I found a Detroit on my shelf for a Dana 60 , also a ARB air locker... still debating which I will use. I prefer the Detroit in most instances, but the ARB has some attractive qualities for this build in the front axle... still debating. I also found a Dana 60 power lok new in the box...forgot I had that LoL I rounded up some new inner axles, new 35 spline outer axles also off one of my shelves, so I may modify them for full circle C clips and see how long they last.
I was going to build this truck with 3.73 gears. More I think about it, the more tempted I am to run 4.10 or 4.56...this is partially why I haven not yet selected a front axle to build from my collection. More on this latter in the build....
That's it for now....
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I vote 4:10s.... I think you'll regret 4:56s, even w/37s or 8s....but it's not mine. :)
You'll have plenty of torque...
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I would like to see him run a deeper gear set then add on a gear vendor overdrive unit. He has the wheel base & this gets him best of all worlds. Low gearing & highway drive ability.
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I would like to see him run a deeper gear set then add on a gear vendor overdrive unit. He has the wheel base & this gets him best of all worlds. Low gearing & highway drive ability.
YES! but taller gears like 255s....he could set a decent time at Bonneville on the way out west!! haha
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But it is not all Salt Flats,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I say the 4.10 too and ARB, The others are really happier in a rear axle.
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I'm all about detroits, I think Tate's grizzly might be a good option too but never ran one honestly. My buddy has raced the same front ox locker for years with no issues from it.
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I've got air, but only for the front end. haven't developed the Zip Locker for the 14t yet. Grizzlies are consistent, reliable, and passive. my overall choice for duty specific vehicle applications.
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Passive? I don't think I want a locker that is passive do I? ???
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LoL Tate... my plan is to upgrade to some of you folks alloy shafts once completed, and see if I can ruin them. You know, proper farmer durability testing. I think keeping it geared 3.73 or 4.10 will help a little in the front ends durability struggle.
This a Pro Expo build... the focus is on stickers and expensive lights dun't ya know. :D
And autocross slicks....jus sayin...
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the stuff that he just has 'on the shelf' is what most ppl have to save up to buy. and you can bet for dag on sure they know they have it. hahah
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Well, his videos prove he is not light on the right peddle.
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Well gentleman...
The goal here is a truck which does not need 1st gear around town. A truck that can cruise 80mph, and a truck that can idle around off road with no drama. The Ramcharger is "too low" for 2nd gear to be useful in city driving. Problem is, 3rd gear in the NV4500 is a smidgen too high. Which means 4.56 gears are ok...but unless I run a true 40" tire, driving it in the city will blow. Because with 37" rubber and 4.56's, the Ramcharger is stuck at 70-75mph cruise speeds, and using third gear to start in town. A better combination would be 4.88 and a gear vendors... but that is the weakest combination.
Go the other way and run 3.55 gears, and a Magnum box may work... But you'd then make 2nd gear possibly a bit tall for dead stop starts. I run this combo (38Xml's 3.55 gears and a Getrag 5spd) It works, but less than ideal.
So I keep coming back to the 4.10's and 38's as pretty much identical gearing as a stock 3.55/5spd Dodge was when brand new. I don't need a Gear Vendors then, and I don't need a Magnum box or doubler box either. Keeping it simple is how we build 85mph tractors here in Nebraska. ;D Another possible advantage... you can find 4.10 ring and pinions for the 60 and 14 bolt almost anywhere used if needing one and far from home on some adventure. (think Alaska or Deep Canadian trips) The 4.10 front 60 pinion will be a bit stronger than a 4.56 also... and well, it's going to get 4.10 gears to start. I can add a doubler if it is too "tall" off road, but I think it will be fine.
As for the ARB/Detroit discussion.....
I have always run a Detroit in both axles and been largely 100% happy with that combination on and off road. The only downside to a Detroit in my eyes is somewhat increased rear tire wear, and the habit of breaking the dog clutches if you bust an axle. The latter being the MOST annoying when it happens in a front axle. The rear 14bolt I intend to run rarely fail..... can't say that about the front Dana 60.
So... because Tate can't whistle me up a locker Yukon doesn't build yet (ZIP LOCKER FOR A 14 BOLT) I will be running a rear Detroit. I also have like 3 of these for a 14 bolt laying around...so may as well use one LoL
The real debate is the front axle. If I run a ARB in the front, I will enjoy it everywhere except off road. A front "spool" is about the dumbest thing I have ever seen used offroad. Let me elaborate....
Buy a front air locker...then you need a Hydraulic assist steering, then you need Moly axles and some exotic U joints you can't use in a snow storm on the freeway...or I suppose you can buy RCV's and brag around the camp fire how you spent more on your front axle shafts than my bass boat cost..but yah I don't like front spools off road. I haven't even touched on the stress Hyd steering assist puts on knuckles, or frames, or well...who spools a axle that has to turn? Now the above said....
If you don't "need" to be locked very often up front off road... and you drive yr rig on the street a lot, a air locking diff looks more attractive. My debate....how many times cruising around Moab or Colorado will I curse the Air locker?.... still debating. How many times in deep snow in the rockies, or mud in Alaska will I miss the Detroit? Still debating....
See if I did not have a ARB and a Detroit sitting on my workbench, I could justify calling Tate and buying a Grizzly locker for the front and it would not even be a discussion LoL A lesson to you all.....do not collect traction aiding differentials.
Yesterday I spent 4 hours wet sanding and buffing a old safe. This may not sound like Dodge truck building... but the safe was in the way, and I wanted it sanded/buffed before I moved it to get to the Dodges frame LoL
Today's project.... find a snow commander 4.10 front 60 I know I have, just not sure which farm it's at LoL I have a 4.10 Front 60 here already, but I want the larger Dana 70 sized inner C's the snow commander axles have.
I also need to finish cleaning the work space so I can make a new mess.
I am also depressed a little, I had my mind set on a GLO front diff cover...but my fat front tie rod won't even come close to clearing it at full lock. In fact it's close with a stock cover. So...more deliberation I guess.
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Hey Norm,
you could just get one of these already rolling on 40's
http://expeditionportal.com/featured-vehicle-american-expedition-vehicles-ram-prospector/
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That's pretty nice..... :)
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I agree, just not the price tag!
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I agree, just not the price tag!
I already knew w/o looking that I wouldn't afford it but it's nice to dream.......
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I dunno Phill... it has too many wires, computers, and probably mall navigation. I do however like the color, but for me if I don't build it, I'd not enjoy it.
Besides, I fully intend to build my entire truck for what the suspension and snorkel cost on that one LoL
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Well Norm, if you got this truck you could find the closest Starbucks, you would have Mall Navigation to help you. For 90K I would have a very hard time running it thru the brush or getting rock rash all over it.
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if you're lifting it (which it sounds like you must.. for 38s and all) go ahead and do crossover/high steer. you're most likely doing crossover anyway, so why not just spring for an extra few bucks and get high steer arms, relocate tie rod to over the spring and get your GLO diff cover ;D
it's what I'm doing.. which might also be an indicator as to not do that. :-\ hahaha
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I found the local Starbucks when Duane stopped to visit. Nice enough place all in all, but they don't have my fav coffee. Which is any my wife brews LoL
Yah at 90K I am just not feeling it.
As for the high steer. It doesn't fit with 4" of lift at all. It's just a personal thing (no facts, just opinion) but.... I also feel loading the pass side knuckle above the axles center-line puts undo stress on the upper king pin bushing, the knuckle it's self, and especially the studs. I am not 100% convinced cross over steering is even a good idea, despite having run it for many years on many Dodges. I will most likely run it again...but I am not happy with how they almost require a track bar if you have flexy springs.
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you tell me all this now.. now that I'm eyeballs deep in crossover setup. it's a springless conversion, with new bronze kingpin bushings. so.. im hoping.. it'll be fine for what we are doing. if not.. guess I'll slap a track bar on it.
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On a old Dodge, a cross over steering swap is like night and day in how they drive "usually" As in they turn sharper, steer equally in both directions, whats not to love?
The issues crop up when the springs get soft enough to flex well. They start to "twist" under certain hard steering loads that make for some quirky driving at times in some combinations. Also side to side flex in the shackle is extremely noticeable., and increases with shackle length. In a mild short lift, with new heavier shackles it's not usually a issue. But in some cases with a spring that uses a fair amount of it's movement at road speeds, you can create some profound bump steer.
Like anything, one modification leads to another and so on.... frame strength at the steering box...the debate, should you box the frame near the box or triangulate and well it starts a snowball....
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Steering, ain't that the truth ^^^^^
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On a old Dodge, a cross over steering swap is like night and day in how they drive "usually" As in they turn sharper, steer equally in both directions, whats not to love?
The issues crop up when the springs get soft enough to flex well. They start to "twist" under certain hard steering loads that make for some quirky driving at times in some combinations. Also side to side flex in the shackle is extremely noticeable., and increases with shackle length. In a mild short lift, with new heavier shackles it's not usually a issue. But in some cases with a spring that uses a fair amount of it's movement at road speeds, you can create some profound bump steer.
Like anything, one modification leads to another and so on.... frame strength at the steering box...the debate, should you box the frame near the box or triangulate and well it starts a snowball....
shooting for stock dodge length shackles, with factory CUCV springs and add a leaves. so it's going to basically be a factory setup with add a leaves. nothing super flexy or high. so.. I'm hoping the side shift and bump steer is minimal if at all. we shall see.. once it's starts moving down the road. hahah
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Norm I saw a build thread recently where a guy cut his fenders both on the cab and bed to stuff much larger tires into the build but he didn't want to go all Bigfoot lift on it. It looked "almost" stock and took a second to figure out what he had done. He did a good job of following basically the same lines for thr cutouts as stock just made the "holes" larger. He did have some adjustments to make steering wise iirc but it ultimately allowed him to use much taller tires without significant drive train changes.
If I could only get my mind to work I might be able to find it for ya. But it was a month or so ago so it might as well be 30 years ago sorry. ::) But I think you get what he did. It was a cool solution and avoided so many probs with big lifts.
So a little snooping and I found it again!
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/24653-Project-Doitall-Dodge
He starts chopping fenders in the first few pages (so its not like you have to go through all 90 pages. ha!)
He's running 325/85r16 Michelin XML with no lift kit. Not sure what he decided for gears but I think it came out pretty good.
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Ah yah Wilbur....I myself run those same tires on one of my other trucks with stretched fenders and no lift. Where the issue with these Dodges crops up is, you need a bit of lift to get some upward suspension travel or the ride/performance is punishing.
I think it will end up being custom front springs that relocate the axle forward 1.5" and some heavily modified inner fenders. That worked fairy well on my Wife's Ramcharger...
I am trying to get this project off the ground...but every time I turn around Patch demands more attention. The last thing I need is two projects going at once, but it's looking like that may be how it works out.
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Sheesh you say that like you need sleep occasionally or sumthin' .....ha.
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Hello, anyone in here? :pokefarmer
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Well I could give you excuses why not much is happening...I could sum it up easily by saying, retirement is more work than a career.
Stay tuned something is bound to happen soon....
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The UPS man is supposed to arrive today with some needed parts. So this afternoon I have to decide which truck we are building...and then assuming Don gets Square D running yet today, I can then begin this project properly.
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The UPS man is supposed to arrive today with some needed parts. So this afternoon I have to decide which truck we are building...and then assuming Don gets Square D running yet today, I can then begin this project properly.
Cool...Its off to the races!
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Well UPS didn't arrive (roads are muddy) but I did track him down in town this evening, so we have parts.
I spent a chunk of the day retro-cobbling a old parts washer I scored for peanuts. Nothing hours of scrapping flushing and re flushing a dozen times didn't make functional. So now our shed has a parts cleaner. I think I will rig up a 55 gallon drum tomorrow with diesel fuel for soaking the nasty parts before contaminating my nice new spendy parts cleaning fluid.
Work on the truck didn't happen...because I have yet to commit to any one truck LoL
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Work on the truck didn't happen...because I have yet to commit to any one truck LoL
just do them both..? ;D
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I fell out of my chair....
UPS....new parts???
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Yeah, Kate seems to get into these fast ans works about as hard as you from your reports.
Half the time or both,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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It has begun..I drug the crew cabs "shell" to the general shop area. Evaluation and a game plan are next.
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Well I stopped to have a sandwich and thought I'd share the evaluation of the crew cab...
The areas I was concerned with were the drivers side floor/b-pillers and the roof (crews suffer from roof rust issues) as well as just how much work this will be.
The starting point
(http://i.imgur.com/NW9C51C.jpg)
Rear seat floor area...petty much all original paint yet. The truck had a rubber floor mat with a jute backing per USAF specs I guess. The rear floor mat had no jute backing so no moisture ever got trapped.
(http://i.imgur.com/TJVixjb.jpg)
The pillar between the front and rear doors...this area had almost no paint OEM so it hd some surface rust...small area of light pitting but the seams are dry and solid so.....
(http://i.imgur.com/mUVVf75.jpg)
The driver side floor area....we can work with this I feel.
(http://i.imgur.com/mkg5znO.jpg)
I took a wire wheel to the rocker panel/floor seam area and dug out all the seam sealer. Dodge used a seam sealer that attracted moisture so these areas usually rust badly. I was happy to see this one is still nice and dry.
If you look you can see the less than nice rocker replacement it had at one time. Since we have owned it since about 1998, it must have been done before that.
(http://i.imgur.com/w7n5OFR.jpg)
The last real evidence it was a USAF rig....
(http://i.imgur.com/uJoxDWx.jpg)
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Heck, Norm, that looks great!
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So as of yesterday I was going to build a standard cab pickup from spare parts laying around. That was the plan....then my Mother stopped by on one of her (I am 75 I shouldn't drive at all really wander bout's) and Kay mentions to her we are about to build a truck. So out of the blue my Mom says "are you going to build that ugly green one our relative used to ride in when he was in the Air Force" So I guess it turns out that back about 1998 this fella (I think he's a Cousins husband) who was stationed at SAC and a commander of some sort in the Looking Glass program recognized it was the very truck he rode in by the crooked placement of the flight line sticker I posted above and the dent it has in the pass side rear door that he apparently was involved in. Small world... and funny she never mentioned this before...So anyway sentiment got me and we are building the Crew Cab....
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Thanks Don...I guess sitting in a mostly dry shed for 10 or so years didn't seem to hurt it too much. Wonder if qualifies as a barn find if you find it in your own barn?
The plan at present: Remove the dash *ugh* Remove all the stuff hanging on the firewall, and then the fun begins. It's in good enough shape I can't justify hauling it 120 miles and having it media blasted. It's very awkward to move around and you shouldn't lift these Crews by the roof and a sling so I suppose I will break out the DA, and the blaster and selectively sand/blast it the hard way at home here.
My plan is to do the floors inside, underneath, get some epoxy on them and spray color on the floor and door jams and hopefully by then I have a frame with some axles under it waiting. The finish paint and beautification can wait..outside storage is risky in hail season so getting it inside is my main focus...so that's this weekends fun.
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You just motivated me Norm...I think I'll get out and do something to SquareD!
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LoL That's good to read Don....now all I need is someone to motivate me. I dislike body/paint work immensely and to make it worse I have to drive 60miles for supplies which would maybe be no big deal if I had a clue what I was needing.
I suppose, I have procrastinated over a decade...time to build this thing.
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Looks pretty good for a 35 year old cab.
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That thing looks like a great start.
I have a cattle prod if you need some motivation.
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I was just talking to Duane this very morning about his Crew-Cab. If he doesn't start that thing soon, I am going to buy it from him!
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I was just talking to Duane this very morning about his Crew-Cab. If he doesn't start that thing soon, I am going to buy it from him!
Shouldn't you, you know, finish D2 to the point she can move under her own power? THEN start on Double C.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ :) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Well it's 5pm it's going to rain, and I have bare metal everywhere. (No rain until wed next week they claimed) So I covered it up with a tarp and cleaned up the mess I made.
Progress since noon is as follows: I stripped the assorted junk off the firewall and boxed it up for safe keeping.
I ground out a bunch more seam sealer on the inside of the cab floor. I took the DA and some 80 grit to the cowl area and found a couple miniature cracks starting. I also bought a gallon of epoxy primer and assorted other crap to make it spray-able. I also grabbed 150 sheets of 80 grit and the same of 320 to restock my supply.
I then had to fix a tire on the the 5th avenue and some other daily chores so that slowed me down a little. But after supper I will go sit and stare at it and come up with a plan of how to get this thing done how I want it.
I had not counted on needing to remove every single bit of seam sealer...but if I want it to not rust in the future, I will need to remove it all.
Tomorrow weather permitting I think we will do some media blasting of the inside cab floors. If not...I will do something else.
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Koot, 3M makes a paintable seam sealer called drip check. FYI
That's what I used on my 73 Jimmy when the bed/sides were replaced.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160519/3c942393c7c45a10fcdb7cf349d63a9a.jpg)
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
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can't. wait.
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Ain't much for motivation but here's a picture of a 12v sitting in a crew...you're doing that to yours right?
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160519/673343391c6910d2d0a761d26eda3962.jpg)
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did the ax handle take out the front windshield..? hahah
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did the ax handle take out the front windshield..? hahah
Hammer, and no.... While it was a crappy accident (engine slipped, and hoist was not taut and smashed into the windshield), it did allow me to see the windshield channel and lack of rust in there so I was pleased. Now my biggest concern is getting replacement glass!
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I got a new one from a place here. came out and installed it at the house for $200.. and I only have a leak from a screw. not something with the new gasket.
perfect fit
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Last time I has a windshield replaced was at my house and was under $150 (87 elky)
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Thanks Ken I will take a look at that stuff. What I ever I use, I will need lot of it. Must be a half mile of seams on that roof LoL
My lovely wife reminded me last night that I need to have a vin check done by the sheriff before I tear the dash (and vin tag) out of the truck. Neb requires all out of state titles to have a vin check done...and the Crew still has a Wisconsin title. So that's the first order of business. If I can't get that done today....that will slow things down considerably until it's done.
I found two small rust pin holes in the floor. Which is odd because the metal surrounding them is very solid. I will have to see about removing that and patching it...(about a square inch LoL)
Part of a crew cab cummins swap is the firewall modifications for the clutch master cylinder and the interference with the 1985 style wiring/bulkhead. So one thing I could do today while waiting for the sheriff is figure out how I will address that issue.
It's 6:20 am I got up at 3am and the days required work is done, so it's the weekend now... I have most of the day to mess with the crew project. Come on Sun......
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Hey Norm, why not go old school and "lead" the seams? It sure won't rot, you can smooth over with body filler, and you probably have enough wheel weights sitting in one of those sheds to cover your needs. We took an old hub cap and melted hundreds/thousands in our fireplace when I was younger to fill the frame on the stock car......since adding weight wasn't allowed supposedly ;) I suppose a campfire would be more "safe"......unless it's raining!
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I thought the lead was the body filler in applications like that in the old day?
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Lead wouldn't likely work good in a seam required to flex. That said neither do some seam sealers LoL I grew up smearing lead...I actually even own most of the specialized tools for lead work. Not sure if I remember how to use them, or where they are. LoL
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I grew up smearing lead...
well that certainly explains a lot..
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Oh boy, got a chuckle out of that comment...... ;D
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Yeah I probably asked for that LoL
So the subject of paint color has arrived...we will discuss that today but it's been said if we could find a match to the OEM color that would be a happy day. Not holding my breath LoL
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can't you get it read and have a duplicate paint color mixed..?
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Made me wonder for a moment
What part of the human brain is affected by lead poisoning? ;)
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Well we passed the vin check Saturday with flying colors. So I believe dash removal and firewall modifications will begin. I hope to have most of the required welding on the cab done, and the floor/firewall at least in primer in the next few days.
Yesterday Kay and I went and took a look at a 1980 W200 Snow Commander parts truck that was for sale. I should purchase it....I manged to not buy the truck despite the Dana 60 front, power lock Dana 60 HD rear, 360/727/205 and rust free front sheet-metal.
I did however buy the uber rare OEM auxiliary rear fuel tank and cross member for $20.
Anyway back to work for me....I will post some new pics when I have any progress you can see LoL
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did I miss where you said what front clip/grill it was going to end up with? keeping it year correct.. or going with a 91-93 front end..?
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The grill/core support is a interesting question. The easiest route would be a 91.5-93 intercooled support/grill obviously. Then there is the fact I prefer the older grills (say 1985 vintage) that and they are much stronger as well. So...I am thinking if I can wedge a power stroke intercooler, a radiator, and a AC condenser in a 1985 core support/grill, that's what I'd prefer to do.
It may come down to time. If I have time to mess around with what I am sure will be a fair amount of core support fab/butchery...I will take a stab at making the 1985 grill work. If I am short on time I may ust go for the quick and easy intercooled grill/support.
Fuel tanks is another issue. The OEM Crew tanks are smaller than normal pickup tanks 25 vs 30 gallon. I am not fond of the factory tanks as they are low hanging but if I ran the OEM crew cab tank and this OEM 1980 rear tank I scored, I'd have 50 gallons...so probably enough. I do have a 50 gallon farmer bed tank I could modify into a main fuel tank also...so I am thinking on this entire process as well. If I ran all 3...I'd have a even 100 gallons. That's tempting....we shall see. I'd be tempted to run a 30 gallon RC tank in the very rear and then the 25 gallon aux tank in front of that....but th RC tank doesn't fit in between the crew cabs rear frame rails without some trimming...Rc's have narrower frame flanges
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what ive run in to with putting a 2nd gen IC in front of my early first gen (with mid 80s core support) was the depth of the front grill. they seem to step further back than the 91-93s (which seem to be a smoother, further forward profile line.. allowing for the IC, trans cooler and condenser). it would, however, be pretty awesome to see some round headlights on the front of a CCC. does it have the scalloped hood, or is it the standard dodge hood?
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what does this mean.. project terminated??
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??????????
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Norm ran into a problem, apparently above the windshield in the crew cab it appears to have been hit with something & dented in. Well, whoever fixed it must have used a slide puller to get the dent out & drilled two holes. This removed the dent but I guess they didn't think welding the two holes shut was a priority. ::) so every time it rained it left water in and rusted. Well, Norm is on a timeline & he ain't got no time for fixing that so he's going different direction now.
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Norm ran into a problem, apparently above the windshield in the crew cab it appears to have been hit with something & dented in. Well, whoever fixed it must have used a slide puller to get the dent out & drilled two holes. This removed the dent but I guess they didn't think welding the two holes shut was a priority. ::) so every time it rained it left water in and rusted. Well, Norm is on a timeline & he ain't got no time for fixing that so he's going different direction now.
Dang it!
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That sucks...really too bad things like that happen. I do want to see this one get done too, but with a timeline that's one heck of a repair.
Will be patiently waiting for the next one to come up!
Sorry for the bad luck Norm.
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Yes the above pretty much explains it. The crew cab went from a simple build to a full on restoration/preservation. Amazing what a pin hole of rust can do. I will still be working on it when time allows.... but other truck building priorities are now in play.
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well that's a bummer. I found one around here.. step side and all. but dang if he doesn't want an arm and a leg for it. sheeessh.
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Honestly....it's kind of a blessing as I see it. It not being a "expo build" will likely extend it's life span considerably. My advice to crew buyers or owners...be careful...the small amount of rust ours had was all hidden under the windshields weather stripping.
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Spray some converter in there and weld those holes up. I have 3 antenna holes on the sub to fix, and a HUGE one on the side.
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The proper way to fix it is to remove about 14" of roof skin, the entire front drip rail assembly, media blast and then replace the drip rail, skin assembly. It's simple enough, just time consuming with there being 200 or so spot welds to drill.
It will be a entertaining winter project.... right now I have a summer project to get rolling.
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Hey Norm, when you get a chance, would you snap a picture of the affected area and post it up?
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Yeah Duane I'd be happy to. Look for a pic tomorrow evening.
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Hey Norm, when you get a chance, would you snap a picture of the affected area and post it up?
Hey Bro, you don't think your PW has anything like that going on, do you?
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Yeah Duane I'd be happy to. Look for a pic tomorrow evening.
Thanks.
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Hey Norm, when you get a chance, would you snap a picture of the affected area and post it up?
Hey Bro, you don't think your PW has anything like that going on, do you?
I don't think so. I have heard stories about rust starting in the drip rail above the windshield on this body style and would like to see an example so I can do a thorough inspection. Probably would benefit you as well.
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Honestly the truth is, I had no idea ours had any rust at all. The body is the driest nicest crew I have ever seen.
I had one spot where the seam sealer had a small crack in it so I made the call to grind out all the seam sealer, and that's when I found the damage. Now if some idiot had not left holes behind the windshield gasket I am confident there would have been no rust. I based that on the fact the entire rest of the roof has dry pinch welds and looks great.
There are three pieces of metal that are spot welded together under that drip rail...after removal of the seam sealer I found a soft spot. I could fix it without the removal of the outer roof skin but eventually it would get worse. The only correct way to fix it is to remove the first 15" or so of roof skin and clean/blast the inner skin...epoxy prime it, and replace the outer skin, drip rail with pristine pieces.
I made the call to put this project off until winter largely because of the time a proper "body" job would take and the call that for what we need/want of out next truck...I didn't want to risk the rare crew body off road.
Duane you have seen Patch...I can't bring myself to subject a rare nice crew to that abuse...call me sensitive LoL
I will get some pictures latter today...but in all honesty I'd sure consider windshield removal as the only way to know for sure...and even then that seam sealer can hide surface rust under it. I found a few places removing seam sealer on our crew that would have become an issue in another 5 years or so.
My advice to anyone with this roof style especially...so all Crews and club cabs 93 or older and all standard cabs 1981 and older that is considering painting anyway...remove the seam sealer and repaint and reseal and keep it dry.
Roof rust is common on all 93 and older Dodges....but the early roof design is by far the most prone.
I am just relieved I caught this problem on our crew before it became a real issue... right now it's a time consuming but simple fix that will allow me to address this properly, and eliminate any fear of a future rust issue.
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With all that is there a way to graft a new top on? Which is easier, finding a whole cab or finding a good roof.
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Jr... it doesn't need a entire roof... just some work in the rain gutter/lip area. That said, since I have a good front roof section from a club cab that's perfect, I am going to cut the roof back a foot or so and blast/treat/epoxy the inner roof and the "sandwiched area" It's a simple process if you don't count drilling 100 or so spot welds from each roof section, then re spot welding all three pieces together and then welding the roof skin back without warping. I have done it before....it just takes patience and time. If it had one spec of rust anywhere else in a seam or pinch weld I'd possibly find a different cab....but since they rust like this even in Arizona...that's easier said than done.
As an example... I looked at a old Crew Fire truck that's been stored indoors it's entire life. It has about 12k miles on it. Mine is way cleaner rust wise than that truck....and they want and got $7k for it. '
This is the bad area after some picking at it and seeing how bad it is.
(http://i.imgur.com/75l0GDC.jpg)