Chinooks

[Bigdave_185]

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/recovery-operation-to-remove-utah-national-guard-helicopters-from-mountain-underway

The videos of the blackhawks crashing at snowbird can be found on YouTube

Interesting to get your thoughts Don on the why and what went wrong


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[Flyin6]

First. I do not know the specifics of the accidents.
Next I would ask at what altitude did the crashes occur?
Was there snow on the ground...blowing snow as in creating a "white-out" condition.
Any of that could lead to different sorts of crashes
Now, I just happen to be a high altitude mountain flying rotary-wing instructor pilot,
so I have a direction I would go if I didn't know the circumstances of the crash. I would go to a loss of tail rotor effectiveness due to higher density altitude. In Afghanistan Blackhawks did not do well at high altitudes. It takes a lot of horsepower to drive those tail rotors which counter the torque that drives the main rotor. If the tail rotor was not there the fuselage would want to rotate opposite the rotation of the rotor. Now as you get higher and higher, two things start happening. First, the engines produce less power. Next, the rotor blades and tail rotor blades become less effective. So let's say you set up for an approach to a pad at high altitude. The aircraft is likely operating at the very top end of its available power. You are fighting winds and turbulence and say, on short final you get a good buffet or the wind reverses. Just like that you need to pull more power...power that is not there and the Rotor RPM droops. the resulting loss of lift pancakes you faster than you can say Biden's a loser.
Next thing that happens is some Chinook comes along to lift the busted bird off the mountain side.
A Chinook, in contrast to a black hawk has a huge abundance of power. It can hover at maximum gross weight out of ground effect at 10,000 feet at 95F!!! I don't think any other helo on the planet has that much power. It is a beast and no tail rotor to counter torque because both rotors turn in opposite directions cancelling out torque effect.

[Bigdave_185]

I guess I had never thought of the torque and didn’t of course know the chinooks rotated in different directions
 Interesting

I’ll send ya some video of it crashing if I can find them


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[Bigdave_185]

https://youtu.be/mQg9Ev9SEFA


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[Flyin6]

That's pretty obvious...

Whiteout conditions where the sky and ground all look exactly the same so the pilot cannot tell where the ground actually is.

Chalk 2 landed into the building snow cloud from lead (Big No-no) and instead of going around/aborting the landing continued to press it. He got all discombobulated (Aviation term for this ;-) and either landed hard or contacted the ground with the main rotors which is also a no-no.

Lead had his own problem as he also pressed the landing and you san see that he was chasing the snow cloud. Notice that he makes his approach to the middle of that open area but ends up crashed after striking the trees to his left. My theory: The pilot flying is not that experienced. He gets into this white bubble and as the snow cloud accelerates away from him, he chases after it trying to make something stay still long enough to land. He created his own visual illusion.

Commentary: I think there are several things going on here. It seems these guys are either young and inexperienced or they are like national guard guys who fly jets during the week, then get a weekend a month in the Blackhawk because nothing I see here tells me they are experienced. Had I been flight lead, I would have picked a suitable landing site not too far from the trees so I had some sort of visual reference. I would have instructed chalk two to orbit until I radioed that I was safely down. Now if the snow cloud built like I saw in the pic, chances are good that I would have climbed straight out and circled around to do it all again. I'd give it two good trys and if I couldn't get in, then I simply would not land there.

Assuming I did get down, I'd have to think about the recent snow landing experience of the pilots in chalk-2. If I thought they were strong I'd have them attempt to come in. Same same, give them two chances, then wave them off too.

Now I have to wonder why they were landing to a ski resort slope in the first place? A real mission or just showing off for their girls, families or just plain showing off? Show-boating has caused the majority of peacetime accidents. Don't believe me, goggle air show accidents and you'll read about some doozies.

In any event, never good to lose and aircraft/crewman. Just a downer.

I trained my guys hard. For example, over in Afghanistan we would go out 2-3x a week doing NVG desert brown out landings into gigantic dust clouds and also have them land to mountain top ridges at night using NVG. Probably why half my hair has fallen out and the rest is white...BUT, I am still here, and didn't crash when they weren't shooting at me!

[Bigdave_185]

I read the chapter in your book last eve about your test flight ( I think test flight is what ya called it) where you had the pilot go through a number of planned errors and the two motors ran away on the barley flying machine. The hard landing after spinning around and around down the runway.   

The reason Don has such grey hair lol


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[Flyin6]

I read the chapter in your book last eve about your test flight ( I think test flight is what ya called it) where you had the pilot go through a number of planned errors and the two motors ran away on the barley flying machine. The hard landing after spinning around and around down the runway.   

The reason Don has such grey hair lol


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That was a check ride. I was giving that pilot his annual flight evaluation. It was the very end of the flight. He was on final to a runway terminating from an instrument approach when all hades broke lose. That was "Wild Ride" right?

[Nate]

I know this is not a hook video, but I figured this would give Dave some idea of what active duty pilots do and go through.

the hawk you see in the video was piloted by my old brigade commander when she was the battalion commander of 2nd battalion 82 aviation regiment from Fort Bragg.  Colonel (Ret) Carey Wagen.  during the time of this video, she was the first female aviation task force commander in the army and conducting operations in Afghanistan.  the mission that was being conducted in this video was an extraction of special forces from a mountain top (literally).  at the conclusion of this mission, she was heavily praised by the SF community for her skill.

correct me if I am wrong don, but very few pilots ever get training and have the stones big enough to actually execute this? let along the ability to control their aircraft on a point with that much updraft coming from multiple angles?

https://youtu.be/APIpPijMy5k

[Flyin6]

I know this is not a hook video, but I figured this would give Dave some idea of what active duty pilots do and go through.

the hawk you see in the video was piloted by my old brigade commander when she was the battalion commander of 2nd battalion 82 aviation regiment from Fort Bragg.  Colonel (Ret) Carey Wagen.  during the time of this video, she was the first female aviation task force commander in the army and conducting operations in Afghanistan.  the mission that was being conducted in this video was an extraction of special forces from a mountain top (literally).  at the conclusion of this mission, she was heavily praised by the SF community for her skill.

correct me if I am wrong don, but very few pilots ever get training and have the stones big enough to actually execute this? let along the ability to control their aircraft on a point with that much updraft coming from multiple angles?

https://youtu.be/APIpPijMy5k

That's a tricky one to be sure. She did a one wheel landing and had to hold that position for a few minutes. Must not have been a very windy/gusty day.
Peaks and ridgelines make for a lot of turbulence and causes the wind to be all tricky. You can't see all the eddys. One second you have a headwind then fifteen seconds later a quartering tailwind.

It is true to say not all pilots can do that sort of thing. Most could on a good day. But do that at night/NVG in windy conditions and the group of folks that could pull that off gets pretty small. I think most Army pilots were pretty good, just inexperienced. I had like 7,000 hours when I left the Army after 20+ years of flying there and I was one of the high time pilots.

Lather when I was lead pilot for guys in Afghanistan, we all had 10,000-15,000 hours. A very experienced Army pilot during those days had maybe 4,000 hours. Although he was at the very top of his game, he was way down the totem pole from my pilots. So far down that if I hired one, I'd have to start him off in something like a Huey and fly him for a couple years just to get to the point where he would be a decent co-pilot.

Army pilots in combat would get something like 70 hours a month. My guys could get over 200 hours in the same length of time. The Army considers its pilots as general purpose officers. Primary job is to fly but they also have massive extra duties like being the supply officer, POL officer, motor officer and other full time jobs. By contrast the Special Operations community does not practice that nonsense but keeps pilots in the cockpits. That's the reason they can do so much more. Now that I have retired, I think the Army model for raising up pilots is mostly wrong, is antiquated, way-way too safety conscious and is more focused on making everyone infantrymen and seem embarrassed that their officers actually fly. Just my opinion...

[Bigdave_185]

Can you land a helicopter on a slope?

That video looks intense for sure!!


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[Flyin6]

Can you land a helicopter on a slope?

That video looks intense for sure!!


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You can, but for some helos, not much of one. A Cobra, for example was limited to something like 7 degrees. Something like a Hawk or a hook can take 20 degrees if conditions are right

[TexasRedNeck]

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-60630352

Not a
Chinook but not a DOT


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[Flyin6]

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-60630352

Not a
Chinook but not a DOT


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Part of me is yelling YIPPEE
Another part hates to see men killed
Those guys had mommas/wifes/sons/daughters too

That was a stinger hit I think, although smoky trail may point to Sa-7

[TexasRedNeck]

Agreed. I blame the mad man at the helm of Russia


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[Flyin6]

Back to a couple of pics

The pics of the thing they are unfolding and hooking to the aircraft is called a "Bambi-Bucket." It holds 1710 gallons of water max, but we use vents to keep it at 1500 gallons or 12,000 lbs of the wet stuff. 12K is starting to get heavy for a Chinook, but it can lift nearly three tons more. A really good load is over 17,000 lbs!

[oklawall]

I've seen those used on some of the wild fires around here. That is a bunch of water

[Flyin6]

Let's do some more pics:

[Flyin6]

^^^^ Btw, max nose down attitude is 30 degrees. I think you can add another 30 to the one above...Brits, always screwin' around!

Jumpers are golden knights. Jumped them a bunch of times myself over at Bragg

[TexasRedNeck]

Which country did I just read about that placed a huge order for hooks?


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[Flyin6]

Which country did I just read about that placed a huge order for hooks?


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Germany is the latest to add them to their Luftwaffe. Borrowing from the US Army mission specific MH-47 of the 160th, they, too, will aerial refuel from their C-160 Transals and have unlimited range.
The hook simply has no competition, none. Other aircraft can lift more, but they need an extra engine or are huge like the CH-53E. I only expect this airframe to continue and will easily serve 100 years or more. First flew in the late 50's, operational in the early 60's!

[Flyin6]

some more

[Flyin6]

At times I also show pics hinting at the military culture and lifestyle.

[Flyin6]

A little art and entertainment for the right-brain types

[Flyin6]

It can "Wheelie"

and

Roll over and play dead!

[EL TATE]

Recently watched 12 Strong on Netflix. Days after 9/11 the guys that went in on horseback! that had so much Chinook footage in it you MUST have known some of them. MIGHT have just been for the movie but they had one over 50K ft??

[Flyin6]

Recently watched 12 Strong on Netflix. Days after 9/11 the guys that went in on horseback! that had so much Chinook footage in it you MUST have known some of them. MIGHT have just been for the movie but they had one over 50K ft??

They said they flew it to 25,000. So service ceiling is 20,000 for the airframe based on a pressure differential in the flight boost hydraulics, I recall. The engines will continue to produce some good power, but the blades started getting in trouble, due to a phenomena called "Retreating blade stall"

As far as knowing those guys, yea I probably do know some of them personally, but that has been some years since I flew with them. But that was my old unit, exclusively. And the Hook shots were the actual aircraft in that unit.

[Flyin6]

let's look at some more shots of these big ole beauties

I remember the day that mushroom cloud formed. I was on the other side of the runway a little closer to it. I don't think it was "Incoming" but some engineers blowing up a lot of stuff. That's a big one!

[Flyin6]

I have other pics of this in this thread somewhere.

Sergeant Deetman was once a young private who crewed for me many times. I think he was a Staff Sergeant, E-6 when I left the Night Stalkers to find my way back into the regular Armee, then on to retirement.

Anyway, old Deetman performed well and was a rapid climber. It wasn't long before he had his own aircraft as a young sergeant with his own private or specialist working for him. Well, Brian could be pretty tough on folks, so I guess one of them decided to vocalize his opinion. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying anything bad about Brian, No, he was a really terrific CH-47 Flight Engineer. But one day someone wrote the now famous "Deetman Sucks" in the "F-U" compartment and of course, everyone noticed during the many preflights that aircraft had over the years. So, the thing spread, literally all over. There were parts and boxes of food delivered to soldiers worldwide with the familiar "Deetman Sucks" stamp. There were "Deetman Sucks" rockets fired at bad guys on a couple of continents and right next to the "Hanoi-Jane Urinal targets, you might find a "Deetman Sucks!"

It turned up in every Night Stalker aircraft and also some Marine and Air force planes.

This is funny because some of the earlier Night Stalker airframes were mothballed since the unit was flying them so hard they were going through Chinooks faster than Dave here goes through Chevy trucks. I guess, long after the man retired, someone pulled one of those aircraft out of storage and dropped the big fuel tanks on its side for some serious maintenance. Right there where no man would ever look, always waiting the repercussions of pissing off one private from long ago can still be seen.

So funny!

[Flyin6]

...

[Flyin6]

And one more post:

[JR]

Even had his own stencil, popular.

[Flyin6]

Even had his own stencil, popular.

Wasn't his...

[Flyin6]

Got some more:

[Flyin6]

Pic number two.
Is that anawhetoc?
That was the island chain where we detonated a bunch of surface nuclear weapons.
That dark blue circle looks like the site of a prior nuclear detonation. It matches the description other Army pilots told me about who flew down there.
Kirk, a great friend of mine said he didn't realize what he was looking at until he climbed up one day and saw a perfect dark circle meaning water deeper than a hundred-150 feet I think he said. He could see it clearly and they later told him it was the site of either the first or a subsequent hydrogen bomb detonation that blew the island into two separate islands.

[Flyin6]

Here's a couple more for todays installment:

[Flyin6]

A blast from the past and a salute to my brothers from an earlier generation

[Flyin6]

Loaded up some more hook pics:

I'm pretty sure that first pic has the hook flying by the site of America's first hydrogen bomb detonation

[JR]

 

[Flyin6]

Always adding hook pics

Actually did that second one during the Panama invasion/operation. The second or third night insertion on north end of the canal

[JR]

Heard they ground them all. Something about non spec orings used for engine rebuilds causing fires.

[oklawall]

Heard they ground them all. Something about non spec orings used for engine rebuilds causing fires.

The Chinese flood the military market with counterfeit parts a few years back. They even had government contract info on the package.

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[Flyin6]

True, the entire fleet is currently grounded pending repairs, apparently, of every engine out there.

I've been there before. A transmission issue caused the D-model fleet to be grounded for about 6-9 months. But for we special ops guys, although the fleet was grounded, we were the first to get the mini-teardown and inspection to ensure that little widget in the planetary gearset was tucked in all cozy like it was designed to be. Big Armee was a desert for Hook pilots.

[JR]

Think they grounded all the UH-1s a few years back over some head wear, few more of them but mostly civi now.

[Flyin6]

Think they grounded all the UH-1s a few years back over some head wear, few more of them but mostly civi now.

Not Armee Hueys. We put them out to pasture in the mid 1990's

Funny how ever since then we needed a helicopter about the size of a Huey...

[Nate]

Think they grounded all the UH-1s a few years back over some head wear, few more of them but mostly civi now.

Not Armee Hueys. We put them out to pasture in the mid 1990's

Funny how ever since then we needed a helicopter about the size of a Huey...

Dont be too quick to say that, as the uh-1's are still used in whitesands

[Flyin6]

Think they grounded all the UH-1s a few years back over some head wear, few more of them but mostly civi now.

Not Armee Hueys. We put them out to pasture in the mid 1990's

Funny how ever since then we needed a helicopter about the size of a Huey...

Dont be too quick to say that, as the uh-1's are still used in whitesands

Fleetwide, the UH-1H has been discontinued
THere are still a couple to be found, but there is no flight school, Instructor pilot course or MOS progression that supports that airframe. Some gov't agencies purchased SuperHueys like the ones I flew in Kandahar and Kabul, but as far as a saturation or concentration of Huey airframes, no.
The Army operates all sorts of aircraft that are not really on the books. I bet if I looked hard enough, I could find a US Army B-747 pilot. We fly a ton of different airframes, believe me!

[Nate]

Think they grounded all the UH-1s a few years back over some head wear, few more of them but mostly civi now.

Not Armee Hueys. We put them out to pasture in the mid 1990's

Funny how ever since then we needed a helicopter about the size of a Huey...

Dont be too quick to say that, as the uh-1's are still used in whitesands

Fleetwide, the UH-1H has been discontinued
THere are still a couple to be found, but there is no flight school, Instructor pilot course or MOS progression that supports that airframe. Some gov't agencies purchased SuperHueys like the ones I flew in Kandahar and Kabul, but as far as a saturation or concentration of Huey airframes, no.
The Army operates all sorts of aircraft that are not really on the books. I bet if I looked hard enough, I could find a US Army B-747 pilot. We fly a ton of different airframes, believe me!

oh i believe you 100%.  i was informed last night that WSMR has stopped usage of their uh-1's and have moved everything to the catfish.

[Flyin6]

The super Huey is no joke. 130 knots, 11,500 MGWT. If you can close the doors on it, the aircraft can just about lift it. I was flying mine over 12,000 feet in the stan routinely...And they can take a beating!

[Flyin6]

A few more

[Flyin6]

Merry Christmas, 2022
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