Cummins in my Suburban?

[Flyin6]

So, let's have a discussion and some fun here

I probably won't, but I just may swap a early 6BT 12 valve into the Suburban

* Here's why: It only gets 10mpg on a good day

* I can sell the 6.0L with the LS6 heads and cam, and the supercharger, and the injectors, and the headers, and the exhaust, and the torque converter, and the fancy dual fuel pump setup, and maybe even the transmission

* Duane and I have struck up a deal for me to purchase a 1993 W250 chassis with a good 6BT (Rotary pump) with a Getrag 5-speed and the iron 205 transfer case. He is keeping the Dana 60 front and I will trash the Dana 70 rear axle.

* I have wanted to make my own fuel forever, WVO from the local truck stop to make an endless supply of free fuel, well, like .30 a gal when you amortize the centrifuge price.

* I want a non-electronic "survival" vehicle just in case.

Concept of the operation:

Starting with my 2002 Surburban which is in super excellent condition, I would rebuild the 12 valve and do a mild performance mod. I think I'd just keep the rotary pump since it's easier to start, simpler, bulletproof, and inexpensive. Give it good injectors, a better turbo, and a lift pump, and call it a day. Looking for 350-400HP/900-1200 ft/lbs. ish.

Not sure if I wouldn't just drop in the 5-speed with a clutch or not. The flip side is to just use the 4L80E. It can take a mildly warmed-up Cummins with a low-stall converter. I'd run it with a stand-alone controller. (But that wouldn't be EMP-proof)

I am going to just dump the whole ECM/TCM thing and only use the BCM to run the heater and do other interior things. I would fashion a custom analog dash cut by folks who build Aircraft panels and use a matching set of VDO or similar gages.

I'll just use the factory fuel system, albeit with a lift pump, and call that done. A stock Dodge W250 MBRP exhaust should fit, and after deciding what trans/transfer to use, have the driveshafts shortened or lengthened as required.

I wouldn't call any part of this proposed swap super difficult except for sorting out the wiring harness to keep the BCM things that I still need to work. Dash lights would be a thing of the past and I'd have to just can the anti-lock brakes since I doubt I could sort that.

With that, let the discussion begin

[cj7ox]

I think it's a great plan. Just remember what happened last time you tried an "oil change" on a 6BT. Keep it simple. 

[Flyin6]

I think it's a great plan. Just remember what happened last time you tried an "oil change" on a 6BT. Keep it simple. 

...Still relatively fresh in my memory

[wyorunner]

We’re talking about writing a check, right? If you don’t use the getrag, please put my name on it.

[Flyin6]

We’re talking about writing a check, right? If you don’t use the getrag, please put my name on it.

No, I'll do it myself
I may well use the Getrag. Has a .77 OD which is not good...But all I'll need to do is to rebuild it, then buy a decent clutch and hang some pedals. If I use the 4L80E, then I'll have to buy the box, sort that crap all out, and buy another torque converter. If I do an Allison, I'd have to purchase the converter...Purchase the adapter...find then rebuild an Allison, then find some stand-alone control unit that would be subject to EMP. Seems likely I will just freshen up the whole stock 1993 engine/trans/transfer case and drop it all in.

[TexasRedNeck]

Wasn’t there a comment not long ago about making life simpler and spending more time with the family….

Write a check, sir.


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[Flyin6]

Wasn’t there a comment not long ago about making life simpler and spending more time with the family….

Write a check, sir.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Life changes and I guess we evolve to adapt.
Europe is about to freeze to death
They are not going to suffer all alone. And while all that is developing our idiot of a president, Obama, and his stand-in are going to wreak havoc on this country. We are falling off a cliff in so many ways. Not waiting until the news and internet get shut off...
Can't help but feel something bad is coming
Doesn't seem like a bad idea to put a truck like this together
Writing a check? Who would do it? Who builds things to my standard? And if I could find this mythical person, what would it cost? I'm not spending 50K on a project like this when I can do it for around a fifth of that cost.
I may or may not do it, but if I do, it's going to be me turning the wrenches

[stlaser]

Nope, 6.7l common rail and write a check.

I’d say 24v p pump because I’m doing it but if you recall we believed that to be a low mileage reliable motor until I started trying to up the power and found some concerns. The common rail motor is just more driveable and the power is there. If I had to do it again it’s the route I’d go.

[wyorunner]

Wasn’t there a comment not long ago about making life simpler and spending more time with the family….

Write a check, sir.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Life changes and I guess we evolve to adapt.
Europe is about to freeze to death
They are not going to suffer all alone. And while all that is developing our idiot of a president, Obama, and his stand-in are going to wreak havoc on this country. We are falling off a cliff in so many ways. Not waiting until the news and internet get shut off...
Can't help but feel something bad is coming
Doesn't seem like a bad idea to put a truck like this together
Writing a check? Who would do it? Who builds things to my standard? And if I could find this mythical person, what would it cost? I'm not spending 50K on a project like this when I can do it for around a fifth of that cost.
I may or may not do it, but if I do, it's going to be me turning the wrenches

Swbhobie, builds to your standard. Issue is no idea how long it would be before he could take it on. Think he has a line a builds waiting attention.

Did you already put a solid front axle in? Does the burb have a hydroboost you could use? Will of course need to have drivelines made once a drive train is in. Will
The front clip/grill be able to hold the radiator, intercooler, AC condenser, trans cooler (if using automatic)?

[stlaser]

I agree with Turner, Seth has a new shop he needs to pay for along with young family and he does really good work. I’m sure he’d also work with you allowing you to acquire parts etc and may even let you wrench on it some. He’s definitely the diesel resto mod guy here……

[Flyin6]

Wasn’t there a comment not long ago about making life simpler and spending more time with the family….

Write a check, sir.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Life changes and I guess we evolve to adapt.
Europe is about to freeze to death
They are not going to suffer all alone. And while all that is developing our idiot of a president, Obama, and his stand-in are going to wreak havoc on this country. We are falling off a cliff in so many ways. Not waiting until the news and internet get shut off...
Can't help but feel something bad is coming
Doesn't seem like a bad idea to put a truck like this together
Writing a check? Who would do it? Who builds things to my standard? And if I could find this mythical person, what would it cost? I'm not spending 50K on a project like this when I can do it for around a fifth of that cost.
I may or may not do it, but if I do, it's going to be me turning the wrenches

Swbhobie, builds to your standard. Issue is no idea how long it would be before he could take it on. Concur, he does great work. Think he has a line a builds waiting attention.

Did you already put a solid front axle in? No, not going to be a SAS. No need to do that. 9.25 is plenty strong enough and the whole suspension is well sorted. I do think I would swap out the torsion bars to the 2500/3500 Duramax units from the Silverado.


Does the burb have a hydroboost you could use? Yes, factory equipped with a hydro-boost.

Will of course need to have drivelines made once a drive train is in. Yes, once the main parts are first determined, then procured and fitted, then come the driveshafts

Will The front clip/grill be able to hold the radiator, intercooler, AC condenser, and trans cooler (if using automatic)? It did as a factory unit! Remember, this chassis, although in a Silverado came stock with all of that with the Duramax. So the easy plan would be to just use everything from the stock chevy parts bin for an LB7 chevy truck. Having said that, I have that custom front bumper which is fitted with that big, honkin 13,000 winch. I believe the winch location will preclude the use of the chevy intercooler, so I was thinking of using a liquid to liquid unit mounted somewhere there is ample space.

See above^^^^^^

[Flyin6]

I agree with Turner, Seth has a new shop he needs to pay for along with young family and he does really good work. I’m sure he’d also work with you allowing you to acquire parts etc and may even let you wrench on it some. He’s definitely the diesel resto mod guy here……

I would like to do it that way...If I decide to go through with it
But
I am not as wealthy as you may think. Think about it, the price of labor. I would be into this a couple of hundred hours and at what cost? A hundred an hour? So what are we reasonably talking about, $20K-#0K labor??? Plus the $10K parts. Sorry, but that is just nuts. And for something I can do myself.
If I decide to do this, I am going to have all the questions answered before I Losen the first bolt. I am doing that right now

My decision tree looks something like this:

First, decide on which power plant. I have answered that question already. I'll use a 12 valve, which I now own. I have the simplest of those, a rotary pump motor. I think I'll just rebuild that, shooting for 400 HP which is achievable, very cost-effective, simple, and with readily sourced parts.

Next is to decide which transmission to use:
Candidates are: Warmed over 4l80E
                        Allison
                        Stock Getrag 5-speed

I am leaning now toward the 4L80 which can handle the torque from a warmed-up early 12-valve.
The reason I am leaning in this direction is that it keeps a lot of the stock Chevy stuff in place saving money and reducing complexity
One of the driving reasons for this is that I am finding it difficult to clock the NP-205 behind the Getrag to make it work with the left-hand drop. Should I be able to clock it, working out the transfer case shifter is going to be a problem

So if I go with the stock style drivetrain, then I lose some of the EMP survivability, but it allows me to get a 20MPG powerplant in there relatively easily.

Next after deciding which powertrain to use is to source all the parts
and
Pour over the vehicle wiring diagram to see if I can somehow use the stock dash (which I doubt) or switch to an analog unit.
Should that happen, then I'd identify all the parts needed and solve for things like tach signal and throttle position, and how to get a speedo working.

There are some good standalone 4L80E units that may provide for a speedo signal and that would help.

I think the installation is easy. 1. Source motor mounts. 2. Fab up new trans mount or simply slide it aft to fit and get that bolted up

Next is plumbing. Get the radiator, trans cooler and intercooler figured and the piping fabbed up.

About the same time, do the exhaust. I'll use the exhaust mani that drops the turbo down lower to get it out of the way of the dryer canister.

It's just work, but I'll have to figure out the location of the AC and the alternator and the H2O outlet and hoses...that is simple.

THe hard part is going to be running down the wires. I may keep the ECU in there but just not use the myriad of leads that drive injectors and all the electronics. My goal would be to try to keep enough of a signal to still retain a lot of factory function, such as push-button 4WD, HVAC, and other things. I think that all should work if I can get enough of a signal to the BCM.

My goal would be to actually pull all the unneeded wires from the harness, splice in what I need, and create a new, thinner hybrid thing.

I'll use the factory GM PS pump and lines.

I'd like to use a mechanical fan and shroud

I'll mod the fuel system to the main tank with an aux/transfer tank arrangement. I'll pull all the fuel injection stuff and sell it, then install a decent lift pump and use the factory supply/return lines.

The exhaust would be a Diamond of MBRP with a quiet muffler exiting behind the rear tire.

I would remove the hood and fenders and line them with dyno Mat along with the firewall and floor to keep it quiet.

Well, that's where I am with the thinking at the moment...

[wyorunner]

Lizard skin for under hood, fenders, fire wall. Wish I did that when I had the cab on a rack and the frame outside.

Dieseltuff.com for parts if you get there, Mark is an upstanding and smart Canadian selling all things Cummins, to include brand new pumps I believe made in Poland, we are running one in ours. Come to think of it, our entire fuel system, turbo and down pipe came from him.

Interested to see how you solve the weight on the IFS, some sort of coilovers I’m guessing.

4l80e computer in a faraday cage

Clock ring should be able to get the 205 where you need it I’d think? But I haven’t seen the underside of a burb so not sure.

Twin stick cable shifters for 205 actuation, works well it’s what we’re running, and probably a couple hundred thousand others.

Consider a brushless fan with mechanical parts on the shelf. Smaller better less power suck.

What kind of compressor does the burb use for AC? Can you get one that will mount in factory location?

Will Cummins fit with AC compressor in factory location between frame rails? I believe square bodies have to modify frame on passenger side or put compressor up top.

You might be able to get a factory fitting digital cluster that can tell you all the info, I know they make them for older Chevy stuff. Have mechanical on the shelf with fan.

Measure every possible thing you can before tearing things apart and ensure it’ll fit between frame rails and under the hood with the hood closed.

Oh also, do not get rid of anything that you take off the Cummins. Pieces are getting harder and harder to find and more expensive. Pump core is basically 5-600 any where. Or the getrag or 205 for that matter.

Don’t use dynamite, use the other brand I’m drawing a blank on at the moment it’s cheaper and absolutely just as good. I believe it’s called rattle trap. Need to confirm with upholsterer friend.

[Flyin6]

Lizard skin for under hood, fenders, fire wall. Wish I did that when I had the cab on a rack and the frame outside.

Dieseltuff.com for parts if you get there, Mark is an upstanding and smart Canadian selling all things Cummins, to include brand new pumps I believe made in Poland, we are running one in ours. Come to think of it, our entire fuel system, turbo and down pipe came from him.

Interested to see how you solve the weight on the IFS, some sort of coilovers I’m guessing.

4l80e computer in a faraday cage

Clock ring should be able to get the 205 where you need it I’d think? But I haven’t seen the underside of a burb so not sure.

Twin stick cable shifters for 205 actuation, works well it’s what we’re running, and probably a couple hundred thousand others.

Consider a brushless fan with mechanical parts on the shelf. Smaller better less power suck.

What kind of compressor does the burb use for AC? Can you get one that will mount in factory location?

Will Cummins fit with AC compressor in factory location between frame rails? I believe square bodies have to modify frame on passenger side or put compressor up top.

You might be able to get a factory fitting digital cluster that can tell you all the info, I know they make them for older Chevy stuff. Have mechanical on the shelf with fan.

Measure every possible thing you can before tearing things apart and ensure it’ll fit between frame rails and under the hood with the hood closed.

Oh also, do not get rid of anything that you take off the Cummins. Pieces are getting harder and harder to find and more expensive. Pump core is basically 5-600 any where. Or the getrag or 205 for that matter.

Don’t use dynamite, use the other brand I’m drawing a blank on at the moment it’s cheaper and absolutely just as good. I believe it’s called rattle trap. Need to confirm with upholsterer friend.

T-
Good bunch of information and suggestions
Lizard skin: check...still have a gallon or so from SquareD
Cable shifter for the NP205: Didn't know bout that. What, then do you use for the actual shifter mounted to the floor, I'm guessing???
Clocking the NP205: I've only found clocking rings that give you up to forty-odd degrees of rotation. Thinking I need 90 degrees clockwise.
Front IFS is fine as is. Remember that exact same IFS is sitting in like a million Duramax diesel trucks. Also, perhaps you forgot, this Suburban is a 2500, not a skinny, wee-wittle 1/2 ton. (Not sayin' anything bad about the JR and his Tahoe) But a 3/4 ton suburban is a totally different animal. Shares zero parts with a half-ton car.
AC: Discovered the Cummins mounts the exact same compressor as comes stock in my suburban, and in about the same spot.
4l80E controller in a faraday cage will not matter because it will have wires projecting outward which will collect sparks and route them to the stuff that will melt. Was the reason along with simplicity I was considering the Getrag
Dieseltuff.com: Copy, thanks
Electric fans you say?? Well, could just use the stock stuff. Already has a HD two-row GM radiator with two electric fans...already sorted
Stock dash: That's the big question right now. Will take serious sorting and understanding of the wiring harness. If I can manage to keep the ECM, then I'm golden, but that is highly questionable at the moment. I know that I can supply an oil press, water temp, and tach signal from Cummins sensors. But there will be like a million other functions which are no longer needed. My big question is just how degraded can you still hope to have a functioning ECM? If I get that figured out, man, I'm golden. I already thought of some things, such as a fuel pump. Stock has an in-tank. I could use that signal to trigger a lift pump for example and get that functioning automatically.
Then there's the signal from all those Cummins sensors. Needs to run at the same ohms as the chevy stuff or the signal will be useless. Like I said it will be a big effort to sort all that.
The best way to proceed after firmly deciding to do this is to get all the big pieces of the puzzle solved, then just get into it and start solving the issues as they present themselves.
I do know this, if I can pull it off, I'll have a 3/4 ton Suburban getting 20+mpg that is making around 1000 ft/lbs of torque. A Suburban which can run on waste motor oil which I can collect for free and centrifuge. In an emergency, I can pour in about any petroleum-based liquid and get a few more miles down the road. And the burb is not as heavy as you may think. I may be able to squeak in under 7,000 lbs. if I remove all her makeup and hair curlers!

[wyorunner]

This thing for the 205, it’s what we’re running in our 74.

https://precisionfabricationplus.com/shop/ols/products/squaremax-gm-np205-twin-stick-cable-shifter-kit

The guy that runs that shop, top notch individual as well!

Also, I don’t know why but I spaced the duramax on IFS entirely.

[Flyin6]

This thing for the 205, it’s what we’re running in our 74.

https://precisionfabricationplus.com/shop/ols/products/squaremax-gm-np205-twin-stick-cable-shifter-kit

The guy that runs that shop, top notch individual as well!

Also, I don’t know why but I spaced the duramax on IFS entirely.

That just helped a lot

If you read what he is doing with this, you will note that by rotating the 205 case, I will need to create a "high-hump" transmission and driveshaft tunnel in the Suburban
That's an easy decision
This is off the table, as I am not willing to carve up that truck with some big hump in the middle of the cab
Good info as it just eliminated the Getrag/NP205 option.

[wyorunner]

This thing for the 205, it’s what we’re running in our 74.

https://precisionfabricationplus.com/shop/ols/products/squaremax-gm-np205-twin-stick-cable-shifter-kit

The guy that runs that shop, top notch individual as well!

Also, I don’t know why but I spaced the duramax on IFS entirely.

That just helped a lot

If you read what he is doing with this, you will note that by rotating the 205 case, I will need to create a "high-hump" transmission and driveshaft tunnel in the Suburban
That's an easy decision
This is off the table, as I am not willing to carve up that truck with some big hump in the middle of the cab
Good info as it just eliminated the Getrag/NP205 option.

Yea makes sense. That link was for late 80s body chevys. But yea still gonna be similar. Obviously my use was much much different considering our floor is not factory at all.

Go ahead and put a bag on the getrag, I’ll stop by and get it next summer

[Flyin6]

Exploring this a bit more, something interesting came up yesterday.

Tomorrow Duane and I are moving the donor W250 chassis down to my farm where I will pull it apart. I don't really remember what it looked like, but I seem to remember a rolling chassis, and that's what is currently loaded onto that new Kaufman trailer at the moment. I was not there to do the loading so I cannot confirm.

I've had a bit of a work impediment going on since mid-summer which is about to resolve. I will undergo spinal surgery on Tuesday that will resolve the problem with my teeth. You see, the pain has been so great at times, that I have bitten through all three of my crowns in the ensuing months. Since they are a grand or more each, I opted to strike at the root of the problem.

All that was just to explain why someone else is doing the chassis loading, and not me.

OK, enough of that. Duane and I were talking, and I had thought he wanted to keep the front Dana60 axle to use in that 1976 power wagon of his, but yesterday he changed his mind. I mentioned that I was having difficulties sorting out the Suburban project because of the left drop and really, because of that, I never even went down the SAS route. But now that he changed his mind and the D60 (Pass drop) is available, I could run a completely stock orientation 1993 Dodge powertrain, except for that wonderful 14-bolt FF that Sean built for me.

I can actually just rebuild and warm over the engine trans and NP205 and have what would really be just a K30 crew cab with a newer interior. I have to say, that does have some appeal. It's simple and everything is sorted out and would fit. The issue would then just be to actually fit it and then sort the instrument panel.

So, there it is. I think I could do a SAS using the stock dodge D60, then rebuild the engine, install a good clutch, then rebuild the trans and the NP205. That would be one strong and reliable drivetrain that could also pull my heavy trailers or haul around a bunch of the local Kintuckee girls who tend to run a bit on the large size!

I am thinking that if I went that route, to keep it simple, just run chevy leaf springs. That way, the stock ram/dodge steering would be there to keep things simple, and I'd have a lot less fabrication. That D60 already has spring pads.

One thing there, though, is my 14-bolt has 4.56 gears and the D60 has, I believe 4.10 gears, so something is going to have to change.

Question: Leaf springs or a 3-link/Coil-over?

Second question: (with the 37's) 4.10 or 4.56?

[swbhobie16]

so, a couple of things sort of stand out. the spring perches on the d60 are the wrong width for the GMT800 trucks. ORD sells a 3/4 link kit for them. as does skyoff road i believe.

if you want to keep driver side drop, run a 241DHD from a second gen dodge truck. would be floor shifted. but that’s easy enough.

as for shifting the 205 if you go that route, either ford for driver drop or the factory dodge for pass if you go with the matching axle, the kit from precision only requires you to change the hump for square body trucks to clear the allison. but your truck being (could have been) factory equipped with allison, shouldn’t have an issue with clearance of the 205/shifter.

gearing is up to you. there are 4.56 in my dads kaiser with an NV4500 (.75:1 5th gear). it’ll do 75ish,  but it’s at the top of the power band. so, it depends on what you’ll mostly do with it/desired speeds and such. i’m going to 3.73 in it soon with with an AAM 11.5 for disks and (possibly) better gearing. that will be determined shortly.

the dash cluster should be semi simple to work out. adapt the sensors on the cummins to appropriate GM sending units and you’ll be good. it’s possible now that dakota digital now makes a drop in unit for your truck that has its own brain and sending units for any motor. if you want EMP proof and you’re using the 5 speed, build a fully mechanical autometer or similar setup. which is very doable for around $1k.

[TexasRedNeck]

 Back to my original comment, write the check to SW hobie and play with the kids/grandkids. You’ll thank me later.

You can afford it with all the savings from the tesla gasoline savings.


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[stlaser]

Back to my original comment, write the check to SW hobie and play with the kids/grandkids. You’ll thank me later.

You can afford it with all the savings from the tesla gasoline savings.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Agreed…….

Savings from Tesla and all the Bitcoin fortune should easily cover this upgrade!

[Flyin6]

Appreciate the advice folks, but I want to do it myself. I have already done one SAS, a Tundra.

I have put together a Cummins but ultimately took it to a real diesel mech to fine-tune and take it in for the score.

I think a lot of folks think that just because the SquareD truck did not finish, this current proposal is a bridge too far. SquareD actually was finished for the most part. It was only because I ran into an absolute roadblock getting a title for it that I canned it.

And, let me remind you when I was mid-stream with the SquareD project a person I will not name told me he could supply a title/Vin Tag, but a year later crapped out. Had I known he was full of crap, and I could really never register it given the specific situation, well, I would have stopped, then swapped all those good parts into another truck.

This is well within my technical capability. No different than any of the projects that go on here. It's just a matter of getting 90% or so resolved before you start, along with having a reasonable prospect so you can solve the remaining issues. This project easily falls into that scenario.

Besides, what fun is it to just drop something off, then pick it up having been totally modded by someone else? Who here does that?

[stlaser]

Besides, what fun is it to just drop something off, then pick it up having been totally modded by someone else? Who here does that?

Well, my fummins is still at another shop…….

Granted I have to finish things when it comes back to my shop but.

On another note realize no one said you couldn’t do it. You however did tell us just a few months ago you had limited time and wanted to focus less on projects. Your words not ours, just so we’re clear. Charles and I can be direct but only trying to watch out for you.

[Flyin6]

This happened today:

After this, I'll move this over to the Suburban thread

[Flyin6]

Besides, what fun is it to just drop something off, then pick it up having been totally modded by someone else? Who here does that?

Well, my fummins is still at another shop…….

Granted I have to finish things when it comes back to my shop but.

On another note realize no one said you couldn’t do it. You however did tell us just a few months ago you had limited time and wanted to focus less on projects. Your words not ours, just so we’re clear. Charles and I can be direct but only trying to watch out for you.

You are right about everything. I did say I wanted to back off projects some, but now I am feeling like I want to do this one. I guess I want to get this Suburban right the way I define right.

I don't like having to get others to do my work, but I did hire out my barn build and a ton of other things.

And

I know you and Tex have my back. You always have.

I actually feel better about this one because I will not be shooting for the moon, bust doing a nice and useable swap. At the end of the day, I don't need 800HP and some 12-link suspension with camo paint. Just an oil-fired clean Suburban that I can use to the finish line and maybe actually wheel some along the way.

[wyorunner]

This happened today:

After this, I'll move this over to the Suburban thread

That thing is rusted to all heck, might as well scrap it. I’ll come up and get it so you donut have to worry about the rust tarnishing your weed field it is parked in

[oklawall]

Not saying this is the main reason but could part of the reason you made the statement about backing off the projects was the pain from your back? I for myself before my neck surgery I would do a project here or there but never wanted jump into a big/ long project because I never knew if I could do anything from one day to the next. Now that you have the surgery scheduled and you can see the light at the end of the tunnel you feel like you can do projects? Looking forward to watching the project

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

[swbhobie16]

i love the idea of a 12 valve powered family vehicle. esp one that has already had all the stuff done to it along with insulated. etc. if you’re not 100% sold on the 5 speed and wanted to use the 80e bc it’s built and ready to go that’s very viable. if you did want to go with the getrag, i would still keep IFS up front for rideability and you’re not reinventing the wheel with steering and suspension on a SFA swap.

that being said, i would pay good $$ for that 205 for a pass drop specific build. you can keep the 360 and run a 2nd gen dodge tcase for driver drop 

[wilsonphil]

Just a couple thoughts,

I like your Idea but do you really want to give up all the creature comforts that your current rig has?  You will loose a lot of convivence items that make a more modern truck nice and make the truck nicer to have/use.  That Cummins will not give you what you think it will.  The time you invest you will never get back, if its a project to kill time and you enjoy it 100%understand.

You will always be chasing gremlins with a setup that only YOU will be able to work on, the days of taking it to someone to get it fixed will be gone.

Maybe buy a rig close to what you want where most of the heavy work is finished?

All the people that say just write the check!  Don is 100% spot on with his logic, an example if I had hired someone to get my T28 airworthy just the labor hour cost alone most likely would be more than what I paid for the plane and thats not adding in parts cost, same goes for my Cummins powered RC.

What always happens is something big will break and you will find out it wasn't built correctly and the number one thought will be "I should of built this myself" almost 100% of the time this is what happens.

I say that but I will reassemble my Cummins RC and that will be the last time I do a project like that(I think)  Factory trucks are very capable now but I would have a hard time beating up a 80K+ truck on trails and driving thru the brush, I have come to enjoy the comfort/capability of the modern trucks and have a warranty at least for the first 5yrs.

I'm getting older myself and I want to enjoy the things I can physically still do before I get to the point I cant do them any more, my idea of a good time is not spending all day at a pick-a-part.

the 1st gen setup is the most basic way to go and the quietest, please resist the urge to p-pump this truck those engines are SUPER loud and is not a fun time to listen too for hours and hours.

[Flyin6]

Not saying this is the main reason but could part of the reason you made the statement about backing off the projects was the pain from your back? I for myself before my neck surgery I would do a project here or there but never wanted jump into a big/ long project because I never knew if I could do anything from one day to the next. Now that you have the surgery scheduled and you can see the light at the end of the tunnel you feel like you can do projects? Looking forward to watching the project

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

Pretty perceptive...
Ya, that was a big part of it. Back then was the painful phase before all the Dr. visits and MRI. after I got serious, like you said, I started realizing I could get restored with this procedure.
I've been sitting out life. Last night: Went to watch my son play football during senior night. By halftime, I was toast and hobbled home to start another tough night. Woke up better, but being so limited, now, for so many months has been depressing to some degree.
Better days coming

[Flyin6]

i love the idea of a 12 valve powered family vehicle. esp one that has already had all the stuff done to it along with insulated. etc. if you’re not 100% sold on the 5 speed and wanted to use the 80e bc it’s built and ready to go that’s very viable. if you did want to go with the getrag, i would still keep IFS up front for rideability and you’re not reinventing the wheel with steering and suspension on a SFA swap.

that being said, i would pay good $$ for that 205 for a pass drop specific build. you can keep the 360 and run a 2nd gen dodge tcase for driver drop 

Let's talk about this more.

My first choice would be to retain the stock suspension and steering along with the 4L80E. Which T-case would I use with that? One that still interfaced with the output of the 4L80E trans? Would the NP246 hang with a 1000 ft/lb 12 valve? I figured that the NP-263 would, but not sure if it is a plug-and-play with the electronics already there.

So, tapping on your considerable knowledge, how would you build this burb with the VE pump engine while using the 4L80E?

We could for sure talk about the NP205 should that happen, and T wanted the Getrag, I believe. Perhaps some horse trading would be in order...??

[Flyin6]

Just a couple thoughts,

I like your Idea but do you really want to give up all the creature comforts that your current rig has?  You will loose a lot of convivence items that make a more modern truck nice and make the truck nicer to have/use.  That Cummins will not give you what you think it will.  The time you invest you will never get back, if its a project to kill time and you enjoy it 100%understand.

You will always be chasing gremlins with a setup that only YOU will be able to work on, the days of taking it to someone to get it fixed will be gone.

Maybe buy a rig close to what you want where most of the heavy work is finished?

All the people that say just write the check!  Don is 100% spot on with his logic, an example if I had hired someone to get my T28 airworthy just the labor hour cost alone most likely would be more than what I paid for the plane and thats not adding in parts cost, same goes for my Cummins powered RC.

What always happens is something big will break and you will find out it wasn't built correctly and the number one thought will be "I should of built this myself" almost 100% of the time this is what happens.

I say that but I will reassemble my Cummins RC and that will be the last time I do a project like that(I think)  Factory trucks are very capable now but I would have a hard time beating up a 80K+ truck on trails and driving thru the brush, I have come to enjoy the comfort/capability of the modern trucks and have a warranty at least for the first 5yrs.

I'm getting older myself and I want to enjoy the things I can physically still do before I get to the point I cant do them any more, my idea of a good time is not spending all day at a pick-a-part.

the 1st gen setup is the most basic way to go and the quietest, please resist the urge to p-pump this truck those engines are SUPER loud and is not a fun time to listen too for hours and hours.

Nailed it!

Some excellent points Phil. Labor costs push this way, way into the "this is really dumb" category.

Second big point: I remember bringing SquareD around. You all will recall when I started it, the thing was blowing fuel out the tailpipe. A diesel mechanic I hired found the timing to be way off, so he "fixed it." That cost me plenty and I just assumed that although the motor wasn't right, it must be the new injection pump, or new injectors, or a myriad of other new things. After six months I finally towed it to a big performance diesel shop. They discovered the timing was way off and had it purring like a kitten in a couple of hours.

I just do not trust too many people when it comes to wrenching. I really believe the vast majority of so-called mechanics are just plain idiots. I have learned the hard way, too many times to sift and search until you find a Ken or a Sean. But guys like that are well-known and can command some good coin. What would a shop charge me to swap all this around, and have to figure it out as they went? I do not think $30K would come close to the final number, and I'm just talking labor. So, the question becomes "exactly how much do I want to invest into a $5K 2002 Suburban?

The other side of the $5K suburban question: What other vehicle can I find these days that are just as capable that could get 20-25MPG? And run off waste motor oil as well? That group just got pretty small. I drove a diesel Land Cruiser in Kirkuk, but I'm sure some bad people wearing all black took that and drove it right to the point where some USAF F-16 smoked it and turned the vehicle into a shallow pond.

Should I build this with a big emphasis on keeping it simple and low cost, then for a fourth or a fifth of the cost of stroking the check, I could have a high torque/high mileage Suburban. I would save thousands in fuel over the D-max truck using it for almost all of my farm trips except those requiring the power of the Silverado to pull heavier loads.

Finally, strongly concur with my doing it as the primary quality control measure. I can guarantee it will have all new bearings. I can guarantee the head will be overhauled properly. I can guarantee the manifold is torqued on, and I can guarantee the swap will get every single part required to make the truck functional.

[Flyin6]

Just a couple thoughts,

I like your Idea but do you really want to give up all the creature comforts that your current rig has?  You will loose a lot of convivence items that make a more modern truck nice and make the truck nicer to have/use.  That Cummins will not give you what you think it will.  The time you invest you will never get back, if its a project to kill time and you enjoy it 100%understand.

You will always be chasing gremlins with a setup that only YOU will be able to work on, the days of taking it to someone to get it fixed will be gone.

Maybe buy a rig close to what you want where most of the heavy work is finished?

All the people that say just write the check!  Don is 100% spot on with his logic, an example if I had hired someone to get my T28 airworthy just the labor hour cost alone most likely would be more than what I paid for the plane and thats not adding in parts cost, same goes for my Cummins powered RC.

What always happens is something big will break and you will find out it wasn't built correctly and the number one thought will be "I should of built this myself" almost 100% of the time this is what happens.

I say that but I will reassemble my Cummins RC and that will be the last time I do a project like that(I think)  Factory trucks are very capable now but I would have a hard time beating up a 80K+ truck on trails and driving thru the brush, I have come to enjoy the comfort/capability of the modern trucks and have a warranty at least for the first 5yrs.

I'm getting older myself and I want to enjoy the things I can physically still do before I get to the point I cant do them any more, my idea of a good time is not spending all day at a pick-a-part.

the 1st gen setup is the most basic way to go and the quietest, please resist the urge to p-pump this truck those engines are SUPER loud and is not a fun time to listen too for hours and hours.

This happened today:

After this, I'll move this over to the Suburban thread

That thing is rusted to all heck, might as well scrap it. I’ll come up and get it so you donut have to worry about the rust tarnishing your weed field it is parked in

Well, right now I am using the chassis to hold down the trailer. And I am using the trailer as a weed control measure in that field. I think I've got it under control... ;-)

[Sammconn]

I too totally get the don’t trust a shop.
Did have to for my heads, but they are well known.
Cost me a small fortune also.

Sort it all out chief then get at it.
When it’s only you to blame things generally get done the way you want them.

[Flyin6]

I too totally get the don’t trust a shop.
Did have to for my heads, but they are well known.
Cost me a small fortune also.

Sort it all out chief then get at it.
When it’s only you to blame things generally get done the way you want them.

Hear-Hear!

[wilsonphil]

Just a couple thoughts,

I like your Idea but do you really want to give up all the creature comforts that your current rig has?  You will loose a lot of convivence items that make a more modern truck nice and make the truck nicer to have/use.  That Cummins will not give you what you think it will.  The time you invest you will never get back, if its a project to kill time and you enjoy it 100%understand.

You will always be chasing gremlins with a setup that only YOU will be able to work on, the days of taking it to someone to get it fixed will be gone.

Maybe buy a rig close to what you want where most of the heavy work is finished?

All the people that say just write the check!  Don is 100% spot on with his logic, an example if I had hired someone to get my T28 airworthy just the labor hour cost alone most likely would be more than what I paid for the plane and thats not adding in parts cost, same goes for my Cummins powered RC.

What always happens is something big will break and you will find out it wasn't built correctly and the number one thought will be "I should of built this myself" almost 100% of the time this is what happens.

I say that but I will reassemble my Cummins RC and that will be the last time I do a project like that(I think)  Factory trucks are very capable now but I would have a hard time beating up a 80K+ truck on trails and driving thru the brush, I have come to enjoy the comfort/capability of the modern trucks and have a warranty at least for the first 5yrs.

I'm getting older myself and I want to enjoy the things I can physically still do before I get to the point I cant do them any more, my idea of a good time is not spending all day at a pick-a-part.

the 1st gen setup is the most basic way to go and the quietest, please resist the urge to p-pump this truck those engines are SUPER loud and is not a fun time to listen too for hours and hours.

The other side of the $5K suburban question: What other vehicle can I find these days that are just as capable that could get 20-25MPG? And run off waste motor oil as well? That group just got pretty small. I drove a diesel Land Cruiser in Kirkuk, but I'm sure some bad people wearing all black took that and drove it right to the point where some USAF F-16 smoked it and turned the vehicle into a shallow pond.

Dont want to rain on your parade or be a nay sayer BUT you will never and I mean never see that kind of mileage, when my RC was operational the absolute best i EVER saw was 15MPG.  Now I know all the internet experts all get 25mpg pulling a 40ft 16K trailer up a 20% grade and don't even feel the trailer back there.

But the reality is nothing close to that!   When I got 15mpg that was @ 55mph and a 100mph tail wind and down hill(30% grade) once you get the weight up and with your rig being up in the air it will take its toll on the MPG

I know what people say but those gal/miles don't lie, its called math and works 100% of the time.

you can always look for truck someone built OR a newer used Power wagon and convert that to diesel then you will have everything your looking for EXCEPT MPG.

Drive that 5K Suburban because IMO you can buy LOTS of fuel for 30K+ even at todays prices. 

[Flyin6]

Phil, was your RC a P-pump or a VE motor?

I know of some folks who do score some good fuel numbers.

So I'm wondering what may be different between the two pictures?

100 mph tailwind... So you had this thing at FL310 then ;-)

[wilsonphil]

I run the VE, typical mods(pin, spring, timing)  Good injectors and good turbo.

So the RC was 7K lbs with no gear and 3/4 tank of fuel.

it had roughly 4" lift and 33, tires with the stock 3.54 gear.

The only 1st gen dodges I have ever heard of getting close to 20ish MPG are the 2wd 5speed running empty of course and not running 75mph

People say a lot of things, reality is a different story.

I was all the way up to FL37

[wyorunner]

Just a couple thoughts,

I like your Idea but do you really want to give up all the creature comforts that your current rig has?  You will loose a lot of convivence items that make a more modern truck nice and make the truck nicer to have/use.  That Cummins will not give you what you think it will.  The time you invest you will never get back, if its a project to kill time and you enjoy it 100%understand.

You will always be chasing gremlins with a setup that only YOU will be able to work on, the days of taking it to someone to get it fixed will be gone.

Maybe buy a rig close to what you want where most of the heavy work is finished?

All the people that say just write the check!  Don is 100% spot on with his logic, an example if I had hired someone to get my T28 airworthy just the labor hour cost alone most likely would be more than what I paid for the plane and thats not adding in parts cost, same goes for my Cummins powered RC.

What always happens is something big will break and you will find out it wasn't built correctly and the number one thought will be "I should of built this myself" almost 100% of the time this is what happens.

I say that but I will reassemble my Cummins RC and that will be the last time I do a project like that(I think)  Factory trucks are very capable now but I would have a hard time beating up a 80K+ truck on trails and driving thru the brush, I have come to enjoy the comfort/capability of the modern trucks and have a warranty at least for the first 5yrs.

I'm getting older myself and I want to enjoy the things I can physically still do before I get to the point I cant do them any more, my idea of a good time is not spending all day at a pick-a-part.

the 1st gen setup is the most basic way to go and the quietest, please resist the urge to p-pump this truck those engines are SUPER loud and is not a fun time to listen too for hours and hours.

The other side of the $5K suburban question: What other vehicle can I find these days that are just as capable that could get 20-25MPG? And run off waste motor oil as well? That group just got pretty small. I drove a diesel Land Cruiser in Kirkuk, but I'm sure some bad people wearing all black took that and drove it right to the point where some USAF F-16 smoked it and turned the vehicle into a shallow pond.

Dont want to rain on your parade or be a nay sayer BUT you will never and I mean never see that kind of mileage, when my RC was operational the absolute best i EVER saw was 15MPG.  Now I know all the internet experts all get 25mpg pulling a 40ft 16K trailer up a 20% grade and don't even feel the trailer back there.

But the reality is nothing close to that!   When I got 15mpg that was @ 55mph and a 100mph tail wind and down hill(30% grade) once you get the weight up and with your rig being up in the air it will take its toll on the MPG

I know what people say but those gal/miles don't lie, its called math and works 100% of the time.

you can always look for truck someone built OR a newer used Power wagon and convert that to diesel then you will have everything your looking for EXCEPT MPG.

Drive that 5K Suburban because IMO you can buy LOTS of fuel for 30K+ even at todays prices.

I can confirm this. We typically get ~14 in the dodge. Had one tank where we got 17, most of those miles were at about 45-55 driving all over the island.

[swbhobie16]

i can say my dads ppump 12 valve/4500/205 with 37s and 4.56s in a ~6500Lb kaiser gets 17 all day. started out around 15 but was told by a fairly reputable and knowledgeable cummins pump builder that a newly built cummins will progressively get better mileage (by 30% or so) up to 50k miles. and since his motor was brand new built from top to bottom, that is tracking along about right. i didn’t believe it. but it’s there. and he drives it alittle hot in my opinion. (shifts alittle higher than i would but it’s his truck. hah)

you should have a 263 in there if it’s from an 80e. which it seems like it is. if not, get a 263 from a truck with 80e. will have 32 spline unlike the duramax 263s which are 29 spline and i believe a different bolt pattern.

if you do the 5 speed, a 241 DHD will bolt up to the 29 spline 360 as/is

if you’re doing full EMP or battery proof, a ppump 5 speed would be the option. ppumps don’t even ‘require’ a battery to run. it can be jump started down a hill and can be held on mechanically to fully eliminate any need for electronics. VEs take 12 volts to hold open fuel
shuts.  that doesn’t sound like exactly what you’re going for. but just some food for thought.

[oklawall]

Phil, was your RC a P-pump or a VE motor?

I know of some folks who do score some good fuel numbers.

So I'm wondering what may be different between the two pictures?

100 mph tailwind... So you had this thing at FL310 then ;-)

No he was driving in Oklahoma. Lol

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

[wilsonphil]

i can say my dads ppump 12 valve/4500/205 with 37s and 4.56s in a ~6500Lb kaiser gets 17 all day. started out around 15 but was told by a fairly reputable and knowledgeable cummins pump builder that a newly built cummins will progressively get better mileage (by 30% or so) up to 50k miles. and since his motor was brand new built from top to bottom, that is tracking along about right. i didn’t believe it. but it’s there. and he drives it alittle hot in my opinion. (shifts alittle higher than i would but it’s his truck. hah)

you should have a 263 in there if it’s from an 80e. which it seems like it is. if not, get a 263 from a truck with 80e. will have 32 spline unlike the duramax 263s which are 29 spline and i believe a different bolt pattern.

if you do the 5 speed, a 241 DHD will bolt up to the 29 spline 360 as/is

if you’re doing full EMP or battery proof, a ppump 5 speed would be the option. ppumps don’t even ‘require’ a battery to run. it can be jump started down a hill and can be held on mechanically to fully eliminate any need for electronics. VEs take 12 volts to hold open fuel
shuts.  that doesn’t sound like exactly what you’re going for. but just some food for thought.

Yes the stick shift trucks do get better, my 06 2500 jumped like 3mpg once I got to 60-70K its an auto.  Speed has a lot to do with it , now in most place in the US you can run like 80mph and the RPM starts getting up there. 

My Company has a new f350 4x4 crew club cab long bed with the new 10sp auto, technology is nice at 80mph its only turning 17-1800rpm

VE pumps dont need power either, you can take out the plunger in that solenoid and use the manual shut down lever with a cable attached.to shut it off.

That little plunger actually stranded me once.

Last thing about a stick shift, 99% of the population cannot drive them anymore, so if you get hurt and nobody can drive you to safety it will make for a very bad day.

[stlaser]

And depending where you live 99% of the thieves can’t steal them either….. 

[Flyin6]

Great discussion.

So one of the biggest considerations will be cost followed closely by the amount of effort required to pull it off

If I go with the options which require an SFA, then both the effort and cost increase dramatically.

That alone points to my just swapping in the engine. Now should the 12-valve "only" get 15 mpg, that is a 50%-55% increase over what I am presently getting! That's huge. I cannot centrifuge sewer water to make gas but I can centrifuge WMO to make diesel all day (literally, all day)!

swbhobie16, my truck has the NP 246. I know this because it grenaded and Tate sold me a rebuilt one. The Surburban 2500 was not as HD as the truck, witness the 14 bolt semi-floater used in this truck vs the FF in the HD trucks. Gasser/6.0/NP246 is the stock configuration for this vehicle.

[swbhobie16]

pull the case or look at the old one and see what your spline count is. if it’s 32 (should be since it’s an 80e) then source a 261/3 from a truck and let it ride.

[EL TATE]

pull the case or look at the old one and see what your spline count is. if it’s 32 (should be since it’s an 80e) then source a 261/3 from a truck and let it ride.

T case is an NP246G for the 4L80 trans

[Flyin6]

Tate, you concur with hobie16?

261/263 just slide in with no further problems?

[EL TATE]

NP263HD (non diesel) 32 spline. NP263XHD 29 spline (diesel) np261 is just a manual shift version of the 263.

I trust nearly everything out of his mouth Don.

[Flyin6]

NP263HD (non diesel) 32 spline. NP263XHD 29 spline (diesel) np261 is just a manual shift version of the 263.

I trust nearly everything out of his mouth Don.

I would agree!