The Other Dave’s house

[dave945]

Thought I would start my own thread about the house we moved into two years ago. We’ve already done some work on it, but I’ve got some more projects I’m getting into and I figured it would be good to have somewhere to ask questions and get input(besides from my wife, even though that is the only real input that really matters).

So first off, a little background: in September of 2107 we moved into this house. It is about 5400 square feet , about 4900 is on the ground floor and 500 is in a single upstairs room.  From what I’ve gotten from the son of the previous/original owner, it was built in early 80s. The majority of the framing is 2x6 except for a few interior partition walls. Four bedrooms, 2.5 baths.
It also has a 6000 sqft garage attached that has two half baths in it.

There is also a 1000 sqft guest house, one bedroom one bath with garag and basement space under it.

All on 63.6 acres of beautiful Kentucky land.
Attached are floor plans of the house and garage, as well as a layout of how it all sits together.   


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[dave945]

So here’s one of my current projects. The dining room off the kitchen has a step down into it. I’ve taken out the wall between them so now I need to bring the floor up to match the kitchen. It is almost exactly 5.5 inches so now I need to figure out what combination of framing and subfloorI need to use to bring the floor up (5.5inches) to match before putting down new hardwood flooring.
Any thoughts?




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[Bob Smith]

A table saw would do it for sure.

[dave945]

Are you saying just rip down 2x6s to about 4.75 and drop 3/4 inch sub looting on it and call it good.  Simple solutions sometimes go right by me.


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[stlaser]

Yes ^^^^

If you think water will ever be an issue use treated lumber ripped down.

[Bob Smith]

And if water might be an issue set the cut edge up.

[TexasRedNeck]

Lumber will squeak and move at some point.  Just pour concerted in it and call it done.

That’s a massive spread.  You need a lot of kids to fill it up!


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[dave945]

I did look into having concrete done, but seems like every contractor worth anything in the northern Kentucky area is about two months out and couldn’t really even get a price.


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[TexasRedNeck]

What’s the size of the room?


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[Bigdave_185]

I would lay a 2x4 flat around the perimeter, that gives you a air gap and no floor rubbing on concrete, span the gap with 2x? And then glue and sheet the floor.
Leaving a gap on the floor eliminates the unlevel or wavy concrete and your floor can be smooth.




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[dave945]

What’s the size of the room?


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The room is 19.5x15.5.


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[Bigdave_185]

Someone can rotate the photo



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You could also break up the room into eight foot sections by laying 2x4’ in sections to support the stringers

[dave945]

Based on Google fu, 2x4 will give me a maximum span of about 6 ft . So it would end up looking something like this I think.  The verticals black lines would be the 2x4s laying flat and the green lines would be 2x4s on edge as my floor hoist. Would using LSL 2x4 gain me anything(stiffness, longer span)?



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[TexasRedNeck]

Dave, that is less than a truck full of concrete.  Get someone to help screen and float ( you can rent the tools at a tool rental place) and you can do it for about $1200

Concrete is going for about $1100 a full 10 yard truck here.


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[dave945]

The other part of the concrete equation is that the nearest you would be able to get a concrete truck is about 100-150 ft away. So that means getting someone to bring in a pump or carting it all in. I was told that pump would be another about $1k.  In the picture, the yellow is the driveway coming in, the red arrows show the ridge sloping away from the house and garage. The black smudges are trees and the green in the house is the room I’m working on.   


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[Bigdave_185]

I know there is trailer type pumps you can rent here, use a 5 inch hose to make the distance up for concrete




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[Mrwoody]

Based on my limited math skills, 302 sq ft x (rounded up) 6” or .5 in this case = 151 cubic ft = roughly 6 yards of concrete.  27 -80lb bags of quick crete  = 1 yard of concrete. (Bag says 1/3 cubic ft). 500 bucks for model #42867 mixer at northern tool.  Will  mix 3 bags at a time @4.75 per bag.  About 135-140 per yard.  But you can do it on your schedule vs the concrete companies schedule
I have mixed about 2000 bags into a 3 yr retaining wall project.  42 bags to a pallet.   It’s a lot of work but by myself I could mix a pallet in 75 minutes, by dumping it in a wheelbarrow and pushing to the area needed
Tex, check my math hoping I’m in the ballpark...     again my schedule vs the concrete company schedule was the deciding factor... I’ve used my mixer for at least 15 yrs on all kinds of projects.

[Flyin6]

Based on my limited math skills, 302 sq ft x (rounded up) 6” or .5 in this case = 151 cubic ft = roughly 6 yards of concrete.  27 -80lb bags of quick crete  = 1 yard of concrete. (Bag says 1/3 cubic ft). 500 bucks for model #42867 mixer at northern tool.  Will  mix 3 bags at a time @4.75 per bag.  About 135-140 per yard.  But you can do it on your schedule vs the concrete companies schedule
I have mixed about 2000 bags into a 3 yr retaining wall project.  42 bags to a pallet.   It’s a lot of work but by myself I could mix a pallet in 75 minutes, by dumping it in a wheelbarrow and pushing to the area needed
Tex, check my math hoping I’m in the ballpark...     again my schedule vs the concrete company schedule was the deciding factor... I’ve used my mixer for at least 15 yrs on all kinds of projects.

Makes sense

and

You could pour it in digestible sections drilling into previous sections and inserting rebar to tie into new pours

[Bear9350]

I think you missed something in your math.  1 yard is 27 cubic feet.  1 bag is 1/3 cubic foot.  You need 81 bags if concrete for 1 yard.

[KensAuto]

If you have to use wood you'll definitely want to liquid nail and redhead the crap out of every piece.
Pressure treated 2x4s flat with 4x4s as joists would be strongest imo.

[dave945]

Thinking of the concrete process. I don’t think I could do it in small batches. Simply put, I don’t think my kids would be able to contain themselves from messing with it, at least the little ones.  Not to mention the smell of wet cement throughout the house for an extended period, I think my wife might call a foul on that.


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[Flyin6]

Thinking of the concrete process. I don’t think I could do it in small batches. Simply put, I don’t think my kids would be able to contain themselves from messing with it, at least the little ones.  Not to mention the smell of wet cement throughout the house for an extended period, I think my wife might call a foul on that.


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Copy that

And a thought

What's beneath that floor, the one you need to level up?

If it's not gravel or compacted earth, you would be adding an awful lot of weight to that area. If it spans over something like a basement, garage, craw space or the like, you'd obviously need to engineer that space to support the weight

Ken has the best option I think with the caveat

We have an awful lot of eastern cedar here...Saw up some 4X whatever's and lay them on the concrete. The cedar is resistant to everything, rot, water, keeps bugs out and is maybe free??

I'm building with cedar everywhere because of its unique properties and very long life in a wet environment.

[Nate]

dave, what was the outcome with the retaining wall that is failing by the garage?

[dave945]

Don, that floor is just slab on grade, nothing else underneath, just concrete and terra firma. What would be the drying time on cedar if I went that way?
I’m asking because I’ve decided to give myself a deadline to get subflooring in and down in the next week.  My wife is out of town with six of the kids for the funeral in Alabama, and if possible, I want to have progress made on something this week. 
I was looking at the LSL 2x4s as they should be stiffer and straighter than normal lumber.  More expensive, but if it gives me a more solid flat floor, I’m fine with that. May still have to rip them down if I wanted to have a 2x4 laying flat for the airgap, one on edge on top of that and still fit 3/4 inch osb. But I think that would give me a sturdy, flat, non echoey floor. 

I’m not an engineer( I am, but networking helps rather little here), or contractor/construction worker so any input is appreciated.


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[dave945]

dave, what was the outcome with the retaining wall that is failing by the garage?

That one is still on the planning board. That wall is next to the guest house garage, and we aren’t down there much so it gets overlooked when other projects come up. My current plan is to bust it up and take it down, grade the hill so it doesn’t wash and make a swale to keep the water out of the garages. I’ll correct the drainage down the driveway at the same time which should keep any more problems from happening.


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[Bigdave_185]

You could use 2x6 ‘s and cut out a notch for the 2x4 laying sideways.  That would allow longer spans.  But I don’t see it hurting anything by laying more 2x4’s down on the slab

Do you have a horizontal 360degree laser level? Find a way to test how flat the bottom of the slab actually is 


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[Flyin6]

Don, that floor is just slab on grade, nothing else underneath, just concrete and terra firma. What would be the drying time on cedar if I went that way?
I’m asking because I’ve decided to give myself a deadline to get subflooring in and down in the next week.  My wife is out of town with six of the kids for the funeral in Alabama, and if possible, I want to have progress made on something this week. 
I was looking at the LSL 2x4s as they should be stiffer and straighter than normal lumber.  More expensive, but if it gives me a more solid flat floor, I’m fine with that. May still have to rip them down if I wanted to have a 2x4 laying flat for the airgap, one on edge on top of that and still fit 3/4 inch osb. But I think that would give me a sturdy, flat, non echoey floor. 

I’m not an engineer( I am, but networking helps rather little here), or contractor/construction worker so any input is appreciated.


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I only dry my cedar for 0-6 months.

Most of it I use for exterior needs, but a 4X4 maybe 6 months in someplace that is dry. I have a stack I cut in July which is ready now for a new bunch of adirondacks

[Flyin6]

You could use 2x6 ‘s and cut out a notch for the 2x4 laying sideways.  That would allow longer spans.  But I don’t see it hurting anything by laying more 2x4’s down on the slab

Do you have a horizontal 360degree laser level? Find a way to test how flat the bottom of the slab actually is 


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That is a clever idea!

[Bigdave_185]

Amazing what I think of when I’m sober


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[dave945]

Okay, I put the 360 laser level on the slab floor of the room, leveled it out and was pleasantly surprised to see that the edge of the kitchen floor was right at the level of the laser, and is only off by about an 1/4 inch over the 15 foot length.  I remeasured the difference from the kitchen floor to the dining room and it is 5.625-5.875 inches higher than the slab in the dining room. Checked 15 different spots around the floor and labeled them on the diagram below.  Highest spot in the floor is 5 inches(center) and lowest is 6.375 inches below kitchen.
The diagram shows the following:
Yellow are the boards against the floor
Green are the framing on top of them
Thin purple lines are how I plan to lay out the 3/4 subfloor

[TexasRedNeck]

You should stagger the panels of subfloor so that you don’t have 4 corners coming together. Rip one in half and start the second row.


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[dave945]

Thanks, I probably would have thought of that after I got done and wondered why those spots were such a pain.


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[Bigdave_185]

Thanks, I probably would have thought of that after I got done and wondered why those spots were such a pain.


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Looking at the diagram you made.  You could shim the low spots up to match the high spots.  Weather you use a few thick washers or ceded shims I don’t think it would make a hill of beans worth a difference. 

If water/moisture is a concern find a water proof paint to put down beforehand.

Glue and screw/ringshank and I think you have a winning plan Dave


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[dave945]

Thanks original Dave. Quick question, do you think it is worth the difference in going with and LSL 2x4 instead of regular dimensional lumber?  I guess my thoughts are that it would give me a much straighter framing and ultimately a flatter floor, and a little less chance of deflection.


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[Bigdave_185]

I haven’t ever run this horizontally, required for really tall rake walls.  Let me make a few calls tomorrow to my engineer buddy.


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[Bigdave_185]

Thanks original Dave. Quick question, do you think it is worth the difference in going with and LSL 2x4 instead of regular dimensional lumber?  I guess my thoughts are that it would give me a much straighter framing and ultimately a flatter floor, and a little less chance of deflection.


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Per engineer he wouldn’t span more than 4 feet with the lsl.   Not designed for load that direction

Suggests 2x6 ripped down to specific height needs, regular 2x4 with as many braces as you desire.  or as chuck said fill it with concrete


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[TexasRedNeck]

I hadnt thought about this before but you could put some 3/4 minus gravel and compact it with a plate compactor and then pour only 3 inches of crete with re-mesh.  That would be about 2.8 yard of concrete.

[Flyin6]

Hey Dave,

Yesterday at Church I talked with Otis, a master builder about your project...Asked him if he would go down and do that for you. He declined, has too much work and yours is a pretty small job...

Anyway he says to lay in the ripped 2X whatevers, sheet over the top and be done with it. So now you have Dave and Otis, both pros weighing in to stud it out. No bad ideas from anyone really, you're a winner with chicken dinner no matter which way you go, just passing on the information

Guten Lucken!

[dave945]

Thanks Don. The answer Otis gave you is pretty much what I’ve heard from everyone, even when I was trying to get the retaining wall and this lumped together. Everyone is slammed with work, it’s too bad about the economy being so bad </sarcasm>.

I’m picking up materials today if I can find time to get out of the house to get it done. Plus I only have the blazer for toting the trailer around right now. I think it would be a little much for the odyssey, 24 sheets of drywall, 10 sheets of 3/4 osb, a buncha 2x’s and miscellaneous odds and ends.

I’ll take pictures so it really happens.


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[Bigdave_185]

How did the floor turn out?


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[dave945]

I’m a slacker, the floor got put on hold for a little bit, but will get worked on soon.

Worked on the retaining wall this past weekend. Excavated behind it, drilled some holes in it. Excavated an anchor trench and drove in four 14 ft long all thread rods. Put a 1/4 in plate on both ends and started cranking it up. I’ve managed to get it from 11 degrees off vertical to about 6 degrees and straightened the wall out quite a bit as you can see in the pictures. I was going to try pulling it more upright with a double line pull, but then I realized I don’t have a winch available right now. Gotta make some phone calls.  Or I’ll see if someone local with a track loader can come by and push it up straight. We’ll see. Once I get it as straight as possible, the anchors should keep it upright for the foreseeable future, plus I’m going to put drainage in behind it that wasn’t there before and is the reason it failed. Probably put a stub wall or two sticking out from the existing wall for additional support later on.






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[dave945]

The floor did end up getting done, ended up pouring cement via a line pump directly into the room. Ended up being about 6 yards of concrete. From the moment the concrete truck pulled into the driveway, he was gone 35 minutes later.


It’s now the flattest floor in the house. Next step is a set of stairs going up in the space to the right of the new concrete. It is going to be a very easy walking staircase, about 11 inch tread and 7 inch rise, about 56 inches wide. Then a wall will go up at the right edge of the concrete to separate the dining room from the stairs. Then finish all the drywall in the room.


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[dave945]

One question for everyone. I’m preparing to redo the roof on the house as well, so in looking at insulating, I came across the idea of rigid polyiso insulation on top of the roof decking, then another layer of osb for the final roofing to connect to. About half of the house is under cathedral ceiling that only has about 6 inches of spsce for insulation between the drywall and the roof right now.  Anyone ever dealt with anything like that?




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[Bigdave_185]

This ol house does that all the time on the north east coast


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[Flyin6]

One question for everyone. I’m preparing to redo the roof on the house as well, so in looking at insulating, I came across the idea of rigid polyiso insulation on top of the roof decking, then another layer of osb for the final roofing to connect to. About half of the house is under cathedral ceiling that only has about 6 inches of spsce for insulation between the drywall and the roof right now.  Anyone ever dealt with anything like that?




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That's how I'm going to build the roof in my upcoming cabin reno...

Fast, easy, works!

[dave945]

Cool, how much polyiso do you plan to put on?  It looks like to get R38, it will take 6 inches, R49 a little over 7. Which either would be better than where I’m at today. I think I’ve only got whatever batts they could shove in between the 2x6 rafters.


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[TexasRedNeck]

The key to the method you showed is the air gap and circulation below the decking.


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[dave945]

The key to the method you showed is the air gap and circulation below the decking.


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Just noticed that the picture I copied in was a thick roof with asphalt shingles. We are planning on doing metal roofing, so it would actually look more similar to this picture. No need for the venting to keep the shingles from overheating.



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[Flyin6]

Cool, how much polyiso do you plan to put on?  It looks like to get R38, it will take 6 inches, R49 a little over 7. Which either would be better than where I’m at today. I think I’ve only got whatever batts they could shove in between the 2x6 rafters.


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I planned to use three layers of 2". so, yes. 6" R38 plus 1" wood that will form the ceiling that you actually see, some OSB on top and some 30# felt. I'd say R40+ which should get the job done

[dave945]

That’s about where I was ending up, plus whatever minimal insulation I still have above the drywall and I’ll call it good. Should be a huge improvement. Just need to find the best price on insulation and osb to get it all covered.   Not happening in the immediate future, so I have a few months to plan and shop.


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