Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4

[stlaser]

Or the 7.3L Godzilla motor……. 

[TexasRedNeck]

I’ll just leave this here

https://latemodelengines.com


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[JR]

Dmax is cheaper

[oldkoot]

I am just a farmer mind ya...But our combination is just poor. Combine that with clearly poor tuning and it doesn't perform well...go figure. Fix that tune first....even a democrat knows it shouldn't backfire.

As for the transfer case.... Al the damage/issues sound like it was binding up. If it was assembled correctly this would not have happened. Same is true of the front diff. No matter how crappy the chev IFS is, they usually survive driving on the road LoL

I'd wager a little chassis dyno tuning by a true professional, (not cheap) and it would run fine despite the poor combination.

Just a farmers opinion.

[KensAuto]

The one thing that I would question is fuel pressure. Probably a lean condition. Since it wasn't backfiring before, something changed. Tuning usually doesn't change, and I can't tell you how many GM application fuel pumps I've warrantied lately, no matter the brand. They're ALL junk...Denso, Delco, Spectre, Carter, etc. If the pumps aren't failing, the dang level sensors are.

That being said, I don't remember if you put in a race pump or not.

[Flyin6]

The one thing that I would question is fuel pressure. Probably a lean condition. Since it wasn't backfiring before, something changed. Tuning usually doesn't change, and I can't tell you how many GM application fuel pumps I've warrantied lately, no matter the brand. They're ALL junk...Denso, Delco, Spectre, Carter, etc. If the pumps aren't failing, the dang level sensors are.

That being said, I don't remember if you put in a race pump or not.

That's not it ken.
I have a "Race/forced induction" fuel system in there. It has large lines and two very high capacity fuel pumps. One for normal and the second kinks in above 7psi fuel pressure.
And here's another thing
Since I had it supercharged, that was the first time I ever stuck my foot into the throttle that far for that long. I just don't hot rod around all that much

[EL TATE]

The one thing that I would question is fuel pressure. Probably a lean condition. Since it wasn't backfiring before, something changed. Tuning usually doesn't change, and I can't tell you how many GM application fuel pumps I've warrantied lately, no matter the brand. They're ALL junk...Denso, Delco, Spectre, Carter, etc. If the pumps aren't failing, the dang level sensors are.

That being said, I don't remember if you put in a race pump or not.

That's not it ken.
I have a "Race/forced induction" fuel system in there. It has large lines and two very high capacity fuel pumps. One for normal and the second kinks in above 7psi fuel pressure.
And here's another thing
Since I had it supercharged, that was the first time I ever stuck my foot into the throttle that far for that long. I just don't hot rod around all that much

underperforming injectors maybe?

[Flyin6]

The one thing that I would question is fuel pressure. Probably a lean condition. Since it wasn't backfiring before, something changed. Tuning usually doesn't change, and I can't tell you how many GM application fuel pumps I've warrantied lately, no matter the brand. They're ALL junk...Denso, Delco, Spectre, Carter, etc. If the pumps aren't failing, the dang level sensors are.

That being said, I don't remember if you put in a race pump or not.

That's not it ken.
I have a "Race/forced induction" fuel system in there. It has large lines and two very high capacity fuel pumps. One for normal and the second kinks in above 7psi fuel pressure.
And here's another thing
Since I had it supercharged, that was the first time I ever stuck my foot into the throttle that far for that long. I just don't hot rod around all that much

underperforming injectors maybe?

new 100 pph, flow tested in a batch.
I don't think its those, but I am suspecting tune.
On the dyno, Nick could not get a top gear pull, had to do it in little 1st gear pulls, way brief. Some sort of limitation on the Mustang Dyno and big trucks and 37's.
I am thinking I go back that route and get some more tuning. I have a HP, so I can record data. I think I make some passes and log the data, then get smarter about what to look for, and give it to Nick.

[KensAuto]

Sounds like a good plan.
Hate to see you burn a valve, or worse yet, a piston

[Flyin6]

Today I went after that crappy transmission shift schedule with a vengeance!
Here's what i found out: I decided to search the web and find a stock 4L80E trans tune and compare that to what was in my truck.
On the HP tuners site, if you have an account, you can access the tune depository. I searched and found a stock tune from a 2003 Silverado, 2500, Non-HD with a LQ4 gasser.
It is a bit laborious, but table by table I copied all the stock stuff onto my wacked out tune.
I texted Nick who confirmed that he had not touched the stock tune, also believing it is the best thing out there. This 4L80E trans can handle over 850 ft/lbs input torque easily enough with no pressure adjustments.
But when i compared my tune with the stocker it was way, way off. My conclusion: Black Bear tuning had messed with everything, and not a little, but he changed everything and that was creating this terrible 1-2 shift and failure to upshift into overdrive and a bunch of other problems.
I loaded that into the Burb and went for a ride.
The thing works great! All that Black Bear crap is gone and the truck, now for the very first time is a pleasure to drive.

YIPPEE

[Atkinsmatt]

Sounds great.  Its almost like you finally own your transmission now along with the rest of the truck.

[EL TATE]

that's fantastic news Don.

[oklawall]

Good news,

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[JR]

Thats a start anyway!

[TexasRedNeck]

Congrats Don. Apparently NSDQ applies to tuning as well.


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[Flyin6]

Congrats Don. Apparently NSDQ applies to tuning as well.


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Seems to apply to everything...Much to my Frau's chagrin!

[stlaser]

Glad you’re happy with it 

[Flyin6]

Update: I have been using the stock transmission tuning now for weeks, driving 4-5 times a week.

The shift out of first now happens almost immediately so the hard shift that used to be there is almost gone.

But

When I use the towing mode that shift rises to a higher MPH and again, sadly, shifts hard to very hard

So I am putting a stop to all that. This week John at SS Transmissions is installing a rebuilt valve body with the Sonnax shift improver kit installed.

Everyone who uses that shift kit loves it. The Trans-Go kit is absolutely NOT THE WAY TO GO! I guess it works well for sled pullers or drag racers or people who just don't care (The type who run "Rollin-coal tunes" or with no mufflers, you know, those without brains) but 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999% of everyone else likes the Sonnax stuff.

Nuff said, that thing will be a part of the Burb's DNA as of Friday, this week.

Moving ahead, the truck still feels like it has very little power. Granted, that is due in part to having 37" tires, and part to being heavy, but 600 horsepower ought to do something. After a conversation with John, he feels the fault lies heavily with the converter.

So I called Monster transmission to talk that through. In a nutshell, the converter I have in the truck is all wrong for this application. It is rated for around 350HP, has a higher stall than factory and is more or less light duty.

My heavy truck needs a lower stall converter, not a higher stall converter. It also needs to accommodate a lot more power, like the later diesel converters handling thousands of ft/lbs of power. After some discussion, I learned that the converter I am using will break or has broken and simply is overloaded in every area.

They agreed to build me a fully customized billet converter with triple discs, anti ballooning welding and plates, and all the good stuff. They will warranty it for years to handle in excess of 900 HP.

So for $1299, I placed my order

https://www.monstertransmission.com/-GM-Chevrolet-4L80E-Diesel-Torque-Converter--Thor-HEAVY-HAMMER--Level-2_p_16586.html

[JR]

Well, something was not right for sure. It should drive like a beast with 600hp, bad mileage, but run!

Hope this gets it in the ballpark for all the effort and $$ you have in it.

I just got a couple upgrades for my burb, will post there.

[EL TATE]

Update: I have been using the stock transmission tuning now for weeks, driving 4-5 times a week.

The shift out of first now happens almost immediately so the hard shift that used to be there is almost gone.

But

When I use the towing mode that shift rises to a higher MPH and again, sadly, shifts hard to very hard

So I am putting a stop to all that. This week John at SS Transmissions is installing a rebuilt valve body with the Sonnax shift improver kit installed.

Everyone who uses that shift kit loves it. The Trans-Go kit is absolutely NOT THE WAY TO GO! I guess it works well for sled pullers or drag racers or people who just don't care (The type who run "Rollin-coal tunes" or with no mufflers, you know, those without brains) but 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999% of everyone else likes the Sonnax stuff.

Nuff said, that thing will be a part of the Burb's DNA as of Friday, this week.

Moving ahead, the truck still feels like it has very little power. Granted, that is due in part to having 37" tires, and part to being heavy, but 600 horsepower ought to do something. After a conversation with John, he feels the fault lies heavily with the converter.

So I called Monster transmission to talk that through. In a nutshell, the converter I have in the truck is all wrong for this application. It is rated for around 350HP, has a higher stall than factory and is more or less light duty.

My heavy truck needs a lower stall converter, not a higher stall converter. It also needs to accommodate a lot more power, like the later diesel converters handling thousands of ft/lbs of power. After some discussion, I learned that the converter I am using will break or has broken and simply is overloaded in every area.

They agreed to build me a fully customized billet converter with triple discs, anti ballooning welding and plates, and all the good stuff. They will warranty it for years to handle in excess of 900 HP.

So for $1299, I placed my order

https://www.monstertransmission.com/-GM-Chevrolet-4L80E-Diesel-Torque-Converter--Thor-HEAVY-HAMMER--Level-2_p_16586.html

Been selling to those guys for years, even trained their phone team on diff parts at one time. Good folks.

[Flyin6]

We are now finding problems with the tune. It is throwing MAF codes.

That would be OK, but I have a speed density tune.

Found a guy who tunes

He does not work for the general public, but for three select performance shops. He's a software engineer who is also a hot-rodder. We are working on getting him now.

[Nate]

Are you no longer working with nick, or whatever the guys name is that did all of that dynoing fod you?

[stlaser]

Good deal…..

[TexasRedNeck]

You’ll get there eventually


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[Flyin6]

Are you no longer working with nick, or whatever the guys name is that did all of that dynoing fod you?

He is not a part of this phase. I may well return to him after the converter swap.
I would rather have a "real-world" tune as opposed to a dyno tune.
Here's why: When Nick got done with it and I took it, the trans was shifting into overdrive by 24MPH, an obvious miss. Something like that would not show up on a dyno pull, but if you drove it, you should have noticed it right away. My Z06 was tuned years ago by an engineer who drove it many times while recording data. He would make changes, then test again. What I got back was an atomic bomb with a coat of lightening! It was SOOO Powerful, it was almost unmanageable.
By comparison, this Burb is supposedly making more power but feels like a 4cyl pinto with a missing spark plug cable. Something is not right...

[JR]

Hey, I learned to drive in a pinto wagon!

[Flyin6]

Hey, I learned to drive in a pinto wagon!

I actually owned two. A coup and a station wagon!

Edit: Actually three, although one was called a SVO Mustang instead of a pinto

[KensAuto]

Hey, I learned to drive in a pinto wagon!

My first driver was a pinto. Built the engine in shop class. Wish I would have learned how to install the oil control rings before I got in a fight with the teacher, which resulted in taking the engine home to complete. ... which resulted in a mosquito killer.

[JR]

Ha, and we all survived 

[Flyin6]

Had the strangest of things happen yesterday.

I was texting with Nick who was talking with John about the Burb.

I told them I had ordered a custom built Monster Torque Converter. Nick had a reaction like when you take a swig of water and discover it is actually vinegar (Ask me how I know??)

Had a bunch to say about my choice of a builder. Told me I'd be removing it after I couldn't get it to work.

I processed all that for awhile and decided to call and cancel the Monster order. That is in the rear view mirror. In its place, I ordered a custom Circle-D torque converter. Circle-D has a great rep, is located in Houston, TX and was recommended by, well, everyone.

The one they spec'd for me will be a custom 265mm billet unit, bully welded, triple clutch disc, Torrington bearings, brazing and, well, all the tricks. They recommended a 2,600 flash stall after inputting my cam specs, weight, towing weight, horsepower, tire size, gear ratio and my Sunday mornin' disposition! ;-)

Should ship in two weeks from yesterday.

Nick and John both think the converter I have is a big part of the power issue I am having. That, and they found faulty O2 sensors yesterday, so we are definitely on track to fixing this thing.

[stlaser]

 

I agree monsters rep isn’t very good, circle d is top of the line

[EL TATE]

I agree monsters rep isn’t very good, circle d is top of the line

I have missed something here. you can private message if you don't want to share on the open forum here, but also it's been 6 years since I was in their facility, training these reps face to face. I wonder if my graduating class moved on and the new batch is floundering?

[stlaser]

I agree monsters rep isn’t very good, circle d is top of the line

I have missed something here. you can private message if you don't want to share on the open forum here, but also it's been 6 years since I was in their facility, training these reps face to face. I wonder if my graduating class moved on and the new batch is floundering?

Sent you a text, no personal experience just friends and shops I deal with locally.

[Flyin6]

I agree monsters rep isn’t very good, circle d is top of the line

I have missed something here. you can private message if you don't want to share on the open forum here, but also it's been 6 years since I was in their facility, training these reps face to face. I wonder if my graduating class moved on and the new batch is floundering?

Best to discuss in private

[EL TATE]

10/4

[Flyin6]

The Suburban is throwing two similar OBD2 codes

P0135
P0135 is the OBD-II generic code indicating the engine control module (ECM) has tested the O2 sensor heater circuit and has detected a problem with the bank 1 sensor 1 O2 sensor heater circuit. What causes the P0135 code? The ECM tests the O2 sensor heater circuit at first startup for excessive current draw and opens or shorts.

P0155
This code refers to the front oxygen sensor on Bank 2. The heated circuit in the oxygen sensor decreases time needed to enter closed loop. As the O2 heater reaches operating temperature, the oxygen sensor responds by switching according to oxygen content of the exhaust surrounding it.

So, both O2 sensors did not suddenly fail.
But both O2 sensor internal heaters did!

therefore
I am thinking one of the fuses that protect that circuit has failed

Any other ideas?

[JR]

Duraburb 

[TexasRedNeck]

What did you find out Don?


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[Flyin6]

What did you find out Don?


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Nothing yet Tex
I strongly suspect a fuse, one of those cube looking ones that power that circuit.

Been building at the farm so...

But that nice converter just showed up, so its game time to get that sorted and the software tweaked for trans shift scheduling so John can do the hard work and get me on the road in the correct configuration

One thing that stuck out in the research/diagnosis phase: A symptom of a failed O2 Sensor heater circuit is horrible fuel economy

Checked that block, sub 10 MPG since, well, forever

Now having said that, I am optimistically thinking I may be about to summit the slippery slope whilst pushing along that big ball of parts and get this thing as good as it is going to get, and useable for whatever I put it to.

But it will simply never be the world conquering go anywhere vehicle I want it to be. The final solution is a diesel powered truck that can attain 20+ MPG whilst providing 1000+ ft./lbs. available torque.

Although a duramax could get that done I am not inclined to go that route because of the cost and the complexity along with the ability to troubleshoot and repair a complex electrical/software morass while half the way up to the base camp on K2.

The only thing that makes sense if to put a Cummins 12 valve in there. An old school one requiring zero electronics. I can do that and with keeping the power turned down bolt it right up to a 4L80E. Or I could toss an Allison 6 speed behind it with a stand alone controller and possibly hit mid 20's in fuel economy.

I feel strongly that once I clear this cabin build (April 2023 ish) I will embark on that endeavor.

The price of new vehicles is ridiculous, and frankly embarrassing. What fool will be the one to loose the first 20-30K on the purchase of one? As we get into a new era of shortages of everything, locking down on anything you own makes total sense. so what if I end the game of life on earth driving a 2002? Did I not measure up? Not as cool as my neighbor?
Or
Did I stand my ground, make a statement about frugality, and actually have been a good steward of the money God has given me?

[JR]

Not a bad choice but motors have gone up to. I am seeing 12v going for over 2k now, I paid 1k.

Start looking!

[Flyin6]

Not a bad choice but motors have gone up to. I am seeing 12v going for over 2k now, I paid 1k.

Start looking!

I found one

[stlaser]

I have an inexpensive 24v short block if someone needed or wanted

[Flyin6]

I have an inexpensive 24v short block if someone needed or wanted

I may be.

I think I have a complete 12 valve VE pump engine, which would be the one I'd rebuild for the burb, but I have thought about building a 24 valve with a P-pump

[JR]

Ve is the way to go from all I have heard. Not the big powerhouse, but better all around driving, starting and mileage.

Still not hard to get 400hp from it, just a turbo and injectors.

[stlaser]

I have an inexpensive 24v short block if someone needed or wanted

I may be.

I think I have a complete 12 valve VE pump engine, which would be the one I'd rebuild for the burb, but I have thought about building a 24 valve with a P-pump

Well, you have number.

[Flyin6]

Dropped the burb off at S&S Transmissions.

John will pull the transmission and install a modified valve body with a sonnex shift kit, and the new Circle-D converter.

I am hoping this gets me on course to what I have been seeking all along.

[JR]

Hopefully, lots of time and $$$ sitting there.

[Flyin6]

It should be done tomorrow.

Today: Building up transmission with a donor valve body fitted with the sonnax shift improver kit.

Triple clutch Circle D 10.5" converter. Still too small a diameter in John's opinion, but essentially, no one makes a larger cover. The smaller diameter of this size converter prevents the use of a larger pump like that which is found in our diesel converters.

John is quite "iffy" as to whether or not this thing will work. It can, however do things the other converter could not. For example, you could not lock the other converter under boost. The single clutch simply would not hold the torque. But this thing can lock during a shift under full boost and not hurt anything.

I could for example command it to lock up mid second gear and stay that way all the way up. Or I could lock and unlock it whenever I want to make the trans act like an 8-speed.

[Flyin6]

I guess I was duped by Monster Transmission. I ordered the converter that came out of the truck from them, but lo and behold, it was clearly built by someone else and is a straight up stock replacement unit, not the "RV" heavier duty unit they sold me. That figures, and is consistent with the rumors I have heard about them. Now that I can see evidence that they 1. Did not manufacture their converter, and 2. It was nothing other than a stock replacement, I guess I can agree with all the folks that are saying they build junk and cannot be trusted...Pity.

[Flyin6]

Pan is super clean. John said the trans is in great condition, so it's going back in with the newer VB untouched