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Offline husker77c

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Head gasket and head surfacing
« on: October 01, 2015, 09:13:47 AM »
I wanted to start a new thread on this topic because it is more of a specific question. 

I pulled the head off my 6BT in preparation for building the engine up but I've scaled back my plans a bit.  I was going to O-ring it but from a cost and necessity stand point that doesn't make sense for me right now.   Since I have the head at the machine shop and they say it's .006 off I'm going to have them deck it while it's there. 

Has anyone had a diesel head decked?   I'm wondering if I have them take off the .006" to make it flat what size head gasket should I get? They make Cummins gaskets in a +.010 and a +.020 size.  Does that mean I should have them take off .010"?  Or should I have them take off .006" to make it flat and then use a .010"?   Do I need to worry about the valves beeing closer to the combustion chamber chambers?   

Offline Flyin6

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Re: Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2015, 09:22:38 AM »
Seems like a .010" cut with the +.010 head gasket would make the most sense.

I do believe the 6BT is a zero clearance engine, or interference or whatever that term is. IE piston and valve contact is possible in some extreme and very unlikely circumstances. The head on my 6BT was trued, but only a clean-up cut of a couple thousanth's was made

Norm, you need to weigh in on this.

Note: Norm is becoming our unpaid Cummins and weird stuff technical consultant. He will give you an answer that you can take down to the engineering department at your local university to get decoded and put into English. Oh and he'll also tell you he's just a dirt farmer!
(I guess the definition of a dirt farmer is one who grows stuff in dirt and holds several Phd's in engineering, history, astro-physics and philosophy) (Did I miss any degrees there, guys?)
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Offline husker77c

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Re: Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2015, 09:55:04 AM »
I was hoping to attract Norm to this thread.   

I agree with .010 off and .010 over gasket.  But I was reading about possible valve clearance issues etc.  Wanted to make sure I didn't need anything other than the machine work and the new gasket.   I'm hoping to get the engine back next week to re assemble and paint it up.


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Offline KensAuto

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Re: Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2015, 10:21:52 AM »
He's probably out rebuilding a sapce shuttle in one of his silos right now......ie no internet. lol
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Offline cudakidd53

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Re: Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2015, 10:55:39 AM »
I'm guessing he's in full harvest mode- first one to the elevator, makes the most $ unless he's already contracted his crop.  I'm guessing he's more of a "what the market will bear" farmer.  Not to mention that he's probably trying to catch the Pheasant Opener as well!
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2015, 11:04:04 AM »
He's probably out rebuilding a sapce shuttle in one of his silos right now......ie no internet. lol
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Offline husker77c

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Re: Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2015, 11:46:45 AM »

I'm guessing he's in full harvest mode- first one to the elevator, makes the most $ unless he's already contracted his crop.  I'm guessing he's more of a "what the market will bear" farmer.  Not to mention that he's probably trying to catch the Pheasant Opener as well!

Mmmmm pheasant.   Does that open this early?  Thought it was 1st of November?


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Offline husker77c

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Re: Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2015, 02:48:15 PM »
Well I got my question answered.   Called the place I was planning on buying the head gasket from and they recommended the stock thickness gasket.  When they clean up the head they also set the valves back to factory clearances.  So it doesn't matter if you take off the .006" or .040 the engine will not know the difference because the valves are set back the same amount. 

Getting the surface machines and a 3 angle valve job on it as well.  Just bought the upper gasket set.  Ouch $330 for genuine Cummins gaskets.  Also popped for new 60# valve springs and titanium retainers.   Not entirely necessary at first but will be there if I decide to turn it up in the future.


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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2015, 10:58:56 PM »
Well I got my question answered.   Called the place I was planning on buying the head gasket from and they recommended the stock thickness gasket.  When they clean up the head they also set the valves back to factory clearances.  So it doesn't matter if you take off the .006" or .040 the engine will not know the difference because the valves are set back the same amount. 

Getting the surface machines and a 3 angle valve job on it as well.  Just bought the upper gasket set.  Ouch $330 for genuine Cummins gaskets.  Also popped for new 60# valve springs and titanium retainers.   Not entirely necessary at first but will be there if I decide to turn it up in the future.


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Are you planning on turning it up higher than factory governed RPMS?

That's were those #60 lb springs come in handy
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2015, 11:04:49 PM »
Spent about 2 hours on the phone with Norm last night.  Boy is busy right now.  They were starting the harvest yesterday.

60# don't seem like a lot of pressure.  I guess I'm used to high rpm small blocks....

I assume that's the @ installed height pressure, whats the pressure compressed?
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2015, 11:08:37 PM »
Spent about 2 hours on the phone with Norm last night.  Boy is busy right now.  They were starting the harvest yesterday.

60# don't seem like a lot of pressure.  I guess I'm used to high rpm small blocks....

I assume that's the @ installed height pressure, whats the pressure compressed?
Dunno

I think the rule has to do with RPM...Again Norm will correct if I bugger this up. I think the #60 springs are for the 3200RPM gov spring and the #150 springs are for the #4000 RPM springs...That's what I am running
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Offline husker77c

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Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2015, 05:44:59 AM »
I'm probably going to run the 3k governor springs.    Although you can run up to 4k with the 60# springs from what I've read. The heavier 150-200# springs are for 4k+ rpm racing/sled pulling.

The seat pressure I believe is around 150#

The 60# description I think is 60# over stock.

There's a couple reasons for the springs.  As Don mentioned when you start revving the engine higher the stiffer springs keep you from floating valves. 
Another reason is I've read a bunch of stories of people testing factory springs after removing them and having wildly different pressures.




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« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 05:59:53 AM by husker77c »

Offline Flyin6

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Re: Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2015, 10:16:03 AM »
I'm probably going to run the 3k governor springs.    Although you can run up to 4k with the 60# springs from what I've read. The heavier 150-200# springs are for 4k+ rpm racing/sled pulling.

The seat pressure I believe is around 150#

The 60# description I think is 60# over stock.

There's a couple reasons for the springs.  As Don mentioned when you start revving the engine higher the stiffer springs keep you from floating valves. 
Another reason is I've read a bunch of stories of people testing factory springs after removing them and having wildly different pressures.




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Correct, however the principal reason is boost pressure associated with increasing RPM (Angular momentum).
As the intake tract is pressurized beyond factory specs, as in what happens when guys like us start fooling with injectors and turbos, the pressure in the intake tract rises enough to start to push the intake valves off their seats, when they should remain seated. I could be wrong, but I want to say that is the primary reason for increasing valve spring pressures...
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Offline JR

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Re: Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2015, 11:13:28 AM »
Are you stepping up to studs? I wish ARP made a set vs studs or just stock bolts.

Even with the valves at factory specs the compression will go up up some since the chamber is coming down. Probably not a lot though.

Hard to get Norm off the phone, huh,,,,,,,,,,
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Offline husker77c

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Re: Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2015, 11:57:16 AM »
http://www.mightydiesel.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=143_734_108&products_id=1011

I'm doing those for head bolts.


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Offline JR

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Re: Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2015, 03:29:59 PM »
I saw those but not convinced. As popular as the 5.9 is you would think there would be a few options.
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Offline husker77c

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Re: Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2015, 04:09:38 PM »
I agree.  It's those or studs.  Or factory bolts.   I may do studs if it keeps raining here. 

Rain means this job goes on longer and I make more money if you're wondering.


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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2015, 04:28:20 PM »
I am doing this Job next weekend so I will post pictures, I am picking up the Head, Head Gaskets, Head bolts from Cummins Monday and will do the job next weekend.  I will post pictures as I progress.

Offline husker77c

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Re: Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2015, 04:39:10 PM »
So you're doing factory Cummins head bolts?   I cannot express how awesome pics would be of the process you go through. 


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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2015, 05:06:23 PM »
Yes, Cummins, headbolts, head gasket and remanufactured complete head.  Yes I will post pictures of the job in my build thread.  The reason I am running the Cummins head bolts is the last set lasted 25years and never gave any problems, also I am only running 28psi of boost and my motor will stay basically stock So I really don't need studs or super bolts!  Looks forward to getting it apart and see how everything looks.

Offline JR

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Re: Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2015, 08:20:17 PM »
Stock bolts go for about $130, same for the Extreme Bolts. Studs are $400, plus a little machine work.

As stated above, something in between would be nice.
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Head gasket and head surfacing
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2015, 08:59:50 PM »
I agree, the sad thing is the cummins bolts and the head gasket are made in China, I think the head is cast here but I know cummins dose cast some things over in China. 

 

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