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Author Topic: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!  (Read 261410 times)

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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #500 on: December 09, 2015, 09:21:30 AM »
My two cents.  Get rid of the electric pumps completely.  Stock lift pump will support fuel for a whole lot of power.  The electric pumps are just not necessary unless you're building a crazy engine, sled pulling,  drag race etc and they just add complication. 
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There is actually a lot of wisdom in that statement from a survival truck build perspective.
I did not realize the need for much higher pressure when I added the Kennedy pumps. I was thinking it was more like a VE motor and I didn't need a stock pump, or if it ever gage up the goat, the Kennedy's would carry my happy butt on to Nirvana!
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Offline KensAuto

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #501 on: December 09, 2015, 09:38:19 AM »
I have a fuel gage there right now, but tapped into the "T" fitting. It registers 5psi with kennedy pumps only, and a mere 10 psi with the motor stumbling and filling my house with unburned diesel smoke...

I did pull off the return pressure spring and visually check it. The plunger ball worked fine, spring was intact, I just didn't see anything wrong with it (Visually)

but that's not dead heading it. The ONLY way to know if the lift pump is capable of building pressure is to hook straight to the end of the hose and crank it over while watching the gauge. This will also tell you if the check valve is working (in the lift pump)
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Offline husker77c

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SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #502 on: December 09, 2015, 09:41:03 AM »
My two cents.  Get rid of the electric pumps completely.  Stock lift pump will support fuel for a whole lot of power.  The electric pumps are just not necessary unless you're building a crazy engine, sled pulling,  drag race etc and they just add complication. 
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There is actually a lot of wisdom in that statement from a survival truck build perspective.
I did not realize the need for much higher pressure when I added the Kennedy pumps. I was thinking it was more like a VE motor and I didn't need a stock pump, or if it ever gage up the goat, the Kennedy's would carry my happy butt on to Nirvana!

That is my whole angle on these builds.  That's my first priority on my truck and all else is gravy. 

Your thinking is not off base though.  People building high HP trucks block off the factory pump and use electrics all the time so the theory is sound. 

If you want to keep the electrics it shouldn't be that hard to bypass them temporarily to see if that is causing your issue.  If not then run em how you've got them.  They can't hurt anything if they aren't causing a restriction.

I have read about engines that wouldn't run without a proper return.  When u said you had 1/4" return or maybe 5/16" I believe you should have 5/16".  That's what I have in the ford.  I Tee'd the pump and injector line return into one and tied that into my factory steel return line.   

Just more info for you.


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« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 09:44:51 AM by husker77c »

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #503 on: December 09, 2015, 10:04:20 AM »
Husker,

Keep it coming, anything you question

I'll properly and publically beat you up about the head and shoulders, but privately thank you!  :o

Naw, just funnin'

Return line is 5/16" on the pump return and 1/4" on the injector harness return. (After checkin')
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Offline Nate

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #504 on: December 09, 2015, 12:26:24 PM »
replace the junk pumps on cmax with the kennedy one
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Offline JR

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #505 on: December 09, 2015, 12:39:35 PM »
OK, so you have 5psi to the Mech Lift Pump. You need 20psi+ from there. Don't mess with the anything behind it, gauge it there like Ken said.

If you are getting 20+ from there with little or no return flow, I suspect the Ppump

Have you checked the cam timing, new cam right? So no issue with the pump lobe being flat. However, it would not be the first cam ground with the key off a few degrees. So even a timed pump to the cam would off for the motor timing maybe letting the engine run, but not well. Opening the valves wrong and dumping unburned fuel.
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Offline DOOLEY

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #506 on: December 09, 2015, 12:48:36 PM »
HEY DON, I'VE BEEN TALKING WITH LOCTITE ABOUT YOUR POST AND HE SAID THAT THE FACTORY CUMMINS MANUAL PUMP WOULD PUT OUT 20PSI, HE ALSO TOLD ME ABOUT SOMETHING HE HAD SEEN IN THE PAST THAT MAY BE PART OF YOUR PROBLEM, CUMMINS USES A INLINE FILTER BEFORE THE PUMP, (BUT) IT IS NOT A FILTER, ITS A SCREEN, HE HAS SEEN WHERE SOMEONE INSTALLED A FILTER INSTEAD OF A SCREEN AND IT CUT DOWN ON THE FLOW OF FUEL TO A POINT THAT IT DESTROYED THE INJ PUMP, SO WE WAS WONDERING IF YOU HAVE A INLINE FILTER BEFORE THE PUMP, IF SO REPLACE IT WITH AN INLINE SCREEN.

Offline rpar86

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #507 on: December 09, 2015, 04:36:19 PM »
We replaced the stock injectors back in the holes to see if that made any difference, but It didn't really. Perhaps, it was a tad bit easier to start, but it blew smoke like a white dog and still rattled and banged about.

We attached a fuel pressure gauge to the big T which splits the fuel entering the Pump into two routes, the stock one, and one from the front

With the Kennedy pumps running, both of them we were seeing about 5PSI pressure

Don, can you elaborate on the second line: "We attached a fuel pressure gauge to the big T which splits the fuel entering the Pump into two routes, the stock one, and one from the front"

Not sure what you mean by the bolded part.
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #508 on: December 09, 2015, 06:03:33 PM »
We replaced the stock injectors back in the holes to see if that made any difference, but It didn't really. Perhaps, it was a tad bit easier to start, but it blew smoke like a white dog and still rattled and banged about.

We attached a fuel pressure gauge to the big T which splits the fuel entering the Pump into two routes, the stock one, and one from the front

With the Kennedy pumps running, both of them we were seeing about 5PSI pressure

Don, can you elaborate on the second line: "We attached a fuel pressure gauge to the big T which splits the fuel entering the Pump into two routes, the stock one, and one from the front"

Not sure what you mean by the bolded part.

I am using this Vulcan Diesel fuel line kit which has a 1/8" NPT plug I am using in the middle of the "T" fitting:
« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 06:04:48 PM by Flyin6 »
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #509 on: December 09, 2015, 06:06:17 PM »
HEY DON, I'VE BEEN TALKING WITH LOCTITE ABOUT YOUR POST AND HE SAID THAT THE FACTORY CUMMINS MANUAL PUMP WOULD PUT OUT 20PSI, HE ALSO TOLD ME ABOUT SOMETHING HE HAD SEEN IN THE PAST THAT MAY BE PART OF YOUR PROBLEM, CUMMINS USES A INLINE FILTER BEFORE THE PUMP, (BUT) IT IS NOT A FILTER, ITS A SCREEN, HE HAS SEEN WHERE SOMEONE INSTALLED A FILTER INSTEAD OF A SCREEN AND IT CUT DOWN ON THE FLOW OF FUEL TO A POINT THAT IT DESTROYED THE INJ PUMP, SO WE WAS WONDERING IF YOU HAVE A INLINE FILTER BEFORE THE PUMP, IF SO REPLACE IT WITH AN INLINE SCREEN.
Larry, I have a fuel filter/water separator combo plumbed in between the tank and the lift pump
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Offline JR

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #510 on: December 09, 2015, 06:54:34 PM »
I could see the little stock lift pump not pulling fuel through an after market pump/filter, but you have 5 psi to the (modified)stock LP, right?
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Offline Armalite

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #511 on: December 09, 2015, 08:15:09 PM »
and after three pages, I now have a headache...  Keep plugging along Don...    :-\

Offline stlaser

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #512 on: December 09, 2015, 11:39:01 PM »
and after three pages, I now have a headache...  Keep plugging along Don...    :-\


More pictures Big D! Words hurting his head...... :P
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 10:01:00 AM by stlaser »
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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #513 on: December 10, 2015, 09:12:47 AM »
Don this may help....


I'd check fuel pressure at your "T" by the injection pump... then pinch of the overflow return and see if it jumps. Ya can't do this for for very long, but it will tell you if your system can make higher than 10 psi.

Ya can't tell by looking if the overflow valve spring is soft or not. Then again ya also can't tell how it's working if your down on fuel pressure. You could dead head the OEM lift pump with it's intake side in a bucket of fuel. This will eliminate the entire fuel system before the pump and give you a reading that will tell you if your lift pump is bad or not.

Again, don't look at anything else until you get correct fuel pressure to your injection pump. If it can't fill the barrels it can't maintain pop pressure, and it will not run correctly.










Offline swbhobie16

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #514 on: December 11, 2015, 12:23:26 PM »
running into something that sounds almost identical to yours. waiting on pins and needles to see what comes of this. haha

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #515 on: December 11, 2015, 04:09:17 PM »
running into something that sounds almost identical to yours. waiting on pins and needles to see what comes of this. haha
Well the good news is you'll get plenty of practice working and tuning that Cummins!
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #516 on: December 11, 2015, 04:13:54 PM »
running into something that sounds almost identical to yours. waiting on pins and needles to see what comes of this. haha
Well the good news is you'll get plenty of practice working and tuning that Cummins!

i both hope and don't hope so! hahah. fortunately, as soon as i get back from NYC, having a guy i met on CL come to the house with fancy schmancy tools to help set timing, pop test injectors (90 horse aftermarkets) etc. he worked as a diesel tech for 25  years and teaches diesel mechanics at a local community college.. said he could hook me up (also buying a cummins block to build into a coffee table..)

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #517 on: December 11, 2015, 04:22:42 PM »
That'll be one "torquey table"  :o
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OldKooT

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #518 on: December 11, 2015, 04:26:24 PM »
Don.... all you need is a 5 gallon old steel jerry can...a valve stem and a couple fittings. Weld some bungs in for your fuel and return lines.... hook them up using rubber hose to the injection pump. Fill the can with #2, pressurize to 22psi with yr air compressor and start that truck......we need to get you up and running.

Offline JR

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #519 on: December 11, 2015, 11:12:03 PM »
That is way to simple Norm.
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #520 on: December 12, 2015, 08:24:03 AM »
looking back through the 100s of pages of the build, i noticed you have a fuel filter tucked up under the drivers side next to the trans. I'm wondering if thats whats causing your low fuel pressure issues. the stock pumps, even the higher HP ones, are designed (just from looking at various cummins engines) to be before the filters with only a pre filter screen to keep large mess out. the thought being you can 'push' water farther uphill than you can 'pull' it, and with greater pressure. almost wonder if you could move the filter head to a higher (and more out-of-the-way location for sticks and such) to the firewall somewhere, post pump, and solve your issue. I've even found a filter head that is heated with coolant from the engine. ill have to find it again, but its a bio fuel conversion favorite since it requires no electrical components to heat the fuel and uses standard fuel filters that can be had at any auto store and bought in bulk.

would hate to see you roll over a rock in a creek bed or primitive IED, hole in the sheet metal filter and leave you stranded in at the wrong time. hahah

plus, laying on the ground in the mud to change a filter just doesn't sound like a lot of fun. pop the hood and spin her off, loosely screw it back, prime the pump and fill the filter. done

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #521 on: December 12, 2015, 08:45:47 AM »
That'll be one "torquey table"  :o

thats what I'm going for. i just want the block cleaned, painted probably cummins red. machined surfaces bare metal. cleaned aluminum oil filter housing and then tack all the gears from the oil pump, cam, crank, PS and IP in place on front. pistons sitting in the cylinders 'where they're supposed to be' but not connected to the crank or connecting rods. then a 2'x4' glass top to finish it off.

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #522 on: December 12, 2015, 09:56:00 AM »
Don.... all you need is a 5 gallon old steel jerry can...a valve stem and a couple fittings. Weld some bungs in for your fuel and return lines.... hook them up using rubber hose to the injection pump. Fill the can with #2, pressurize to 22psi with yr air compressor and start that truck......we need to get you up and running.
Love ya man...

(In a brotherly way...not that new wave progressive America way)

I'll get it running, and I REALLY appreciate all the help!
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #523 on: December 14, 2015, 04:18:48 PM »
Hey Don since your build has slipped to the second page due to lack of activity I thought I would bring it back to the top so you could find it easy! 

Offline EL TATE

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #524 on: December 14, 2015, 05:41:57 PM »
ooh! shots fired!
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Offline JR

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #525 on: December 14, 2015, 06:22:23 PM »
Would a soapy car wash help?
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Offline Bob Smith

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #526 on: December 14, 2015, 06:29:51 PM »
OH Don, what say you?

Offline Nate

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #527 on: December 14, 2015, 06:56:42 PM »
for all we know, it got loaded on to his flatbed trailer and taken to the engine DR..................?
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Offline Sammconn

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #528 on: December 14, 2015, 11:42:49 PM »
Or to the farm for some Tannerite treatments?
I just don't want to wind up missing a digit or limb.  I can sometimes get in a hurry to get results.
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Offline stlaser

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #529 on: December 15, 2015, 05:56:00 AM »
I must say the level of DOT here is strong and best part I had nothing o do with it! ;D
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #530 on: December 15, 2015, 10:35:01 AM »
Yea, well, it's Christmas, I have other things going on, and now that I've thrown hundreds of more dollars at it, it is still not running...

Ever built a house, just to have it fall into a sinkhole the next day?

I have lost a bit of interest in it because of all this, so best for me to just set it aside while I sort through what to do next.

I don't know about the fuel pump, don't know about the integrity of the P-Pump, it may have sent metal particles to 6 new injectors, I can't understand how it wouldn't have proper pressure. I did everything as right as rain using good parts...

Just too much. I'd better let it slip to page three or four with the way I feel about that motor right now...And the transmission is leaking profusely from somewhere...and I have some other pretty big issues. So yea...
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 10:36:56 AM by Flyin6 »
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Offline KensAuto

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #531 on: December 15, 2015, 10:38:47 AM »
Cheer up buddy. It's all good. You know, I do believe after working on cars for 30 years or so, that satan shows himself in the form of vehicles!

Put it out of your mind and have a merry Christmas.
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Offline JR

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #532 on: December 15, 2015, 10:51:03 AM »
I hear you Don. Things like this really get me thinking about maybe I should have listened to Norm and kept the VE. Then us guys giving you a hard time at every corner like good DOTs.

I am WAY over budget for Christmas. Then with scouts we do food drives and get presents for kids, caroling and the lot.

Have to ask though, did you verify the cam timing?
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #533 on: December 15, 2015, 12:22:24 PM »
Yea, well, it's Christmas, I have other things going on, and now that I've thrown hundreds of more dollars at it, it is still not running...

Ever built a house, just to have it fall into a sinkhole the next day?

I have lost a bit of interest in it because of all this, so best for me to just set it aside while I sort through what to do next.

I don't know about the fuel pump, don't know about the integrity of the P-Pump, it may have sent metal particles to 6 new injectors, I can't understand how it wouldn't have proper pressure. I did everything as right as rain using good parts...

Just too much. I'd better let it slip to page three or four with the way I feel about that motor right now...And the transmission is leaking profusely from somewhere...and I have some other pretty big issues. So yea...

100% understand, you will get it resolved.  Taking a step back is good and you can tell people like me to pack sand until you get it fixed

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #534 on: December 15, 2015, 12:28:36 PM »
I hear you Don. Things like this really get me thinking about maybe I should have listened to Norm and kept the VE. Then us guys giving you a hard time at every corner like good DOTs.

I am WAY over budget for Christmas. Then with scouts we do food drives and get presents for kids, caroling and the lot.

Have to ask though, did you verify the cam timing?
No, I haven't

Everytime I check something on this motor I find it is done correctly. Bolt torques, pump timing and so forth.

A well known Dat diesel mech assembled this motor for his brother's kid. It is done right. Now I could spend more frustrating time and money tearing off the front cover, scratching up the paint, running another gasket and so forth, but I feel that is a waste of time.

I think it is something simple. I think it is related to fuel pressure, and looking at it, I am miffed as to why the setup I have doesn't work.

When we checked pump timing. The builder told me, and wrote down the timing was 12.5 degrees. We found the timing to be 12.5 degrees, just like he said. Everything looks right everywhere...I'm not tearing off the front cover and wasting time. Just need to figure out how to get the fuel pressure right.
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #535 on: December 15, 2015, 12:33:47 PM »
Yea, well, it's Christmas, I have other things going on, and now that I've thrown hundreds of more dollars at it, it is still not running...

Ever built a house, just to have it fall into a sinkhole the next day?

I have lost a bit of interest in it because of all this, so best for me to just set it aside while I sort through what to do next.

I don't know about the fuel pump, don't know about the integrity of the P-Pump, it may have sent metal particles to 6 new injectors, I can't understand how it wouldn't have proper pressure. I did everything as right as rain using good parts...

Just too much. I'd better let it slip to page three or four with the way I feel about that motor right now...And the transmission is leaking profusely from somewhere...and I have some other pretty big issues. So yea...

100% understand, you will get it resolved.  Taking a step back is good and you can tell people like me to pack sand until you get it fixed
I wouldn't say that

And so everyone knows this is not a big deal with me.

God may be showing me something.

Something about idols in our lives.

Square D has been a bunch of fun for all of us, but it is just a truck, nothing more. As long as it draws folks which might get fellowshipped with lovers of Jesus, then it serves a useful purpose.
But the very second it or any of our trucks become really important to us, or they exhault one of us to others, then at that second, they become a tool for evil.

I'll burn that truck to the ground and salt the ground before I let it dominate my life, before I worship it, before I EVER place it before the holy one.

But, if it will serve his purposes, then perhaps he will let me figure out the issue.

So, Don's OK with it...its only a truck...his plan and building into your lives are all much more important that some OD green square fendered relic, or for that matter, the relic building it!
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Offline EL TATE

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #536 on: December 15, 2015, 01:39:59 PM »
Sometimes it takes a stumble to stay humble. We know where you stand, I think we're just cheering from the bleachers here with one bad eye and can't see nothin' with the other.
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Offline Dawg25385

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #537 on: December 15, 2015, 01:43:55 PM »
Well we're all pullin for ya boss. It's just a truck, true. You've also put in a lot of time into the ole girl, and we want to see you succeed   ;)
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #538 on: December 15, 2015, 02:16:08 PM »
Thanks...I'm OK

Better news...We wrote a pretty big check to those Christian Refugee kids for Christmas. Thanks to those of you who gave. I'll post up pics when we give them the stuff!
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Offline cudakidd53

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #539 on: December 15, 2015, 03:12:39 PM »
Thanks...I'm OK

Better news...We wrote a pretty big check to those Christian Refugee kids for Christmas. Thanks to those of you who gave. I'll post up pics when we give them the stuff!

Those will be some of the best photo's posted, I'll bet!  ;)
2012 Silverado LTZ - Duramax
Christian since 1975 - Field Trial Brittanys - NRA Lifetime Member

"When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. Hence, dealing with this fact is not difficult. It is only hard for those still living around you.....It's the same when you're stupid."

Offline stlaser

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #540 on: December 15, 2015, 04:39:11 PM »
Grandpa used to say if you didn't make mistakes you weren't doing anything.....
Living in the remote north hoping Ken doesn’t bring H up here any time soon…..

Offline JR

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #541 on: December 16, 2015, 12:19:17 AM »
I remember lining up woodruff keys vs index keys on my first SBC build. Luckily someone caught it before the cover was on,,,,,,,,,,,,

True, just a truck. But really it represents a part of you with how you put it together. This part is just like other things when you stumble before you gain your footing.

Looking forward to the pictures.
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Offline Sammconn

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #542 on: December 16, 2015, 04:19:57 PM »
You'll get 'er running right chief!

Take a break, step back and enjoy Christmas.

Then get back to the grind and find the problem.
I'm sure its something simple...
I just don't want to wind up missing a digit or limb.  I can sometimes get in a hurry to get results.
Sam

Offline JR

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #543 on: January 05, 2016, 11:49:20 AM »
Any updates here?
Retired LEO  Lifetime NRA+  Outcast in Calif

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

Thomas Jefferson

Offline KensAuto

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #544 on: January 05, 2016, 12:25:51 PM »
Christmas is over....move out!!
Underpaid and misunderstood since 2014

Offline JR

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #545 on: January 05, 2016, 04:59:52 PM »
To bad we can't have assembly or reveille play when the window opens,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Retired LEO  Lifetime NRA+  Outcast in Calif

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

Thomas Jefferson

Offline Flyin6

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #546 on: January 05, 2016, 07:28:37 PM »
About to get something happening

Time to get back to it
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #547 on: January 05, 2016, 07:41:06 PM »
when we got ours running, we only had 2 rubber hoses (supply to lift pump and return from IP) running into a 1 gallon jug of diesel. it was literally sitting in a wooden cradle in the driveway. may could try the same, at least to rule out your pre lift pump filters causing low fuel pressure..

Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #548 on: January 05, 2016, 07:59:43 PM »
I'm pulling for you Big D. I know you won't let this whoop ya!


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Offline Atkinsmatt

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Re: SquareD Part 7 Start it up!
« Reply #549 on: January 05, 2016, 08:02:28 PM »
To bad we can't have assembly or reveille play when the window opens,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Remember the picture of aviation warrants prepared for pt.  He wouldn't remember what the bugle calls were.
Matt
16 GMC Denali 2500 HD

 

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