Women in combat: Ash Carter's vision

[Flyin6]

Having come from the Special Operations community, I just don't buy it. I love em' but women have no business being in my old business

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1jCOkyuzCs

[Flyin6]

Different standards:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2AGwrcqGXE

Different physical standards for men and women have always been around. However those meeting the lower standard weren't lining up next to soldiers like Bobby and Blaine either...

[stlaser]

I think this is less about "women's equal rights" & more about the feminization of men. In order for the powers that be to over throw us as a nation they must get rid of real men. They are and have been playing the long game for years.

[Flyin6]

I think this is less about "women's equal rights" & more about the feminization of men. In order for the powers that be to over throw us as a nation they must get rid of real men. They are and have been playing the long game for years.

Clever observation my rocky mountain friend!

I see it everywhere.

This past winter, Ranger bit a neighbors dog.

There was some flap, I did all the corrective stuff, but one day I got into an argument with one of the liberal neighbors. He told me a lot of people have a problem with me. I asked why had none of them come forward? He said it was because I was so intimidating!
Me?? Intimidating?
Oh he must be referring to the fact that I say what I mean...that i call stupidity and evil what it is...That I love Jesus and God...that I stand up for my family...and generally speaking, I try to carry myself like a man (Sometimes much to the chagrin of my wife)
I told him, "Well if a man lacks the courage to even approach me, then there is no problem. I won't consider anything that some spineless woman/man says behind my back" Thereafter there was an uproar, all gossip of course, that I, the Association president, called the men in the community spineless.

I have no time for womenized men...

[OldKooT]

I was going to type something, but Don scared me =P

[Flyin6]

I was going to type something, but Don scared me =P

Man!

It's happening here too!

:-)

[Wilbur]

It all sucks. Be it in this area for troops obviously but the same with 1st responders where women can "pass" and cant possibly perform the same as a man when it coms to carrying equipment, people etc. But we blindly let these a-holes dictate policy to where we are ALL at greater risk because of it. But of course we should all feel good because we haven't been sexist, or racist, or discriminated against someone with green hair. It might get us (with 1st responders) or others (combat troops) killed but we were PC in our approach.....I am sure that will help the widows and children sleep at night when they get "that call". Seriously WTF are we doing????!!! ARRRGGGHH!!!

Don I am with you- I don't answer to neighbors, I answer to myself and my family. And if that means that I p**s off some jerk who is too limp wristed to ask me why I did something, well so be it. I sleep soundly with a clear conscience. 

[cj7ox]

Don, I'll throw my two bits in here. As a combats arms officer, I don't think there is a job in the military that a female can't do. I am not saying that all females can do my job as a tanker, or scout. I am not saying that all females can do the infantry job, either. But, just like there are men out there who cannot do those jobs, there are females out there who can. I believe that they should be given the opportunity, if they choose to, to try it. That said, they should be held to the EXACT SAME STANDARD as the men. My biggest fear on this topic is that the PC politicos will push for reduced standards for women, and the PC-spineless-worried-about-their-career leadership will bend instead of fighting it. This will result in Soldiers getting killed. I know I am probably in the minority here, but I firmly believe that a woman wants to be combat arms, and is fully physically capable, she should be allowed to. It should be their choice, though, not some politician's quota.

During my last deployment to Iraq, we had women assigned to our Cav Troops. I sat them all down on day one, and explained that there was only one standard in my Troop. I told them they would be going outside the wire on missions, and because of that, they were going to have to catch up with the rest of the troops on training. A few had some chin quivers, but they all buckled down and performed. My male Soldiers were skeptical at first, but with in a few weeks in country they were fully integrated, and had the respect of the guys. The other Troops in our Squadron treated their females with kid gloves, had them doing clerk work and CQ duties rather than training. Those Troops had a lot of problems that mine didn't. The key is enforcing the standards and treating all Soldiers the same.

[Wilbur]

cj7 thanks for posting that. I agree with you 100% as relates to the "same standard" litmus test. And yes- it makes sense that there will be some women who are unable to perform just, as you say, there are some men that cant either. But I am with you- its the bending to "watering down the test" that creates risks and scares me.

[cj7ox]

I think that there are some women's libbers who are freaking out a bit, as well as PC Politicos, over the whole issue at the moment. They made a big deal, and got their way, when it came to women in combat arms, but failed to consider the logical progression that if women are able to perform combat arms tasks, they should also be required to register for selective service. LOL.

[TexasRedNeck]

There is some Cartman wisdom that I would like to post here but it is inappropriate, and insensitive.

So I'll settle for the toned down meme version

[Flyin6]

I know, I know...

Living at Ft Campbell and wearing that 160th combat patch, I'd get my share of attention from others wanting "in."
One girl, a real looker I kept running into. Started when she was a 2LT aviator, and continued through when she pinned LTC. Always wanted to be a Night Stalker. Was having a drink with her at the O Club at Camp Humphreys when she was a major and I was a W4. She was asking for my recommendation to go access. I told her no for the hundredth time and she got mad at me. I said "You think your good looks is going to matter over in my world?" So obviously you can tell that we knew each other well. Well when she got up to take a swing at me (Wasn't the first time!) I thought, well maybe, just maybe there is enough spunk in this one to actually make it.

But she cooled off, we remained friends and she didn't go. I've flown with females who could tuck a hook in tight to another one over the sea of Japan on a moonless night and I would have liked her being my wingman on a NVG overwater all-nighter. But what would happen when we hit the beach with #2 on fire? She gonna keep up with a seal team on the run? No way...Absolutely no way. That means we might have had to shoot her ourselves!

Regular Armee is one thing, but Spec ops is a whole different level to that ball game. I stand fast with my feelings "No women in special operations, and I am doubtful if they could hang with a tough unit through the whole mix.

The lie that is PC will always prevent equal treatment. No one has the courage to make it so, Therefore, women do not need to be in combat arms.
My opinion...

[JR]

Very well said Don. And is the norm, makes total sense.

Even a stout female is not going to drag You or I as dead weight or carry the same load as you or I.

Plus you just cannot change natural instinct, the male will try to protect the female in some way no matter what the rules say.

[Flyin6]

Very well said Don. And is the norm, makes total sense.

Even a stout female is not going to drag You or I as dead weight or carry the same load as you or I.

Plus you just cannot change natural instinct, the male will try to protect the female in some way no matter what the rules say.

Correct!

When I worked for BlackWater I learned quite a bit about Seal training. That organization is all Seals. They keep us NightStalkers around because someone has to fly their expensive choppers, and they do hire the occasional Ranger or SF guy. But from what I can see, the Armee folks are only there for the abuse and amusement of the Seals.

During the vetting period, it is really physical. One thing we had to do was drag a 175 lb dummy dressed out in full kit around. Grab it somewhere and drag it. You had to drag the thing 75 feet in a given length of time or you were deemed non deployable. I even saw some smaller Marines struggling with that dead weight, but we all did it. Actually as I recall, although I beat most folks in the bench press and the run, I failed the PT test. According to my Seal instructor, I never did a single correct pull-up. But since I was an aviator which they couldn't do without, I guess they applied this PC girly principle to me and passed me anyway!
Lucky for me in the five years of tactical fliggin I did in the stan and the Iraq, I never had to do any pull-ups to save my life or someone elses...Except the several thousand pull-ups I did on the collective of the heli-ca-peters I was chasing after.

[cj7ox]

I get what you're saying, Don. I just think they should be allowed to try out if they want to. It should not be dictated by politicos that women be equally spread throughout the force. A quota system would destroy our force, definitely. If they can meet the standard, then I have no issue. I've talked to a lot of women in the military over the years, and the vast majority recognize that the sexes are physically different and have different physiological strengths/weaknesses. The vast majority also has no desire to be combat arms, or special ops. There are a few who have been affected by the women's lib PC dipsticks, and those I just challenge to throw a ruck on their backs and keep up with me. I've yet to have one of those idiots except the challenge, BTW. Whatever our opinion on this topic, the one constant is that the standards for true warfighters must not be diminished. It takes certain physical strengths to be at the tip of the spear, and failing in that regard leads to unnecessary losses, and destroys our ability to win wars.

[Flyin6]

I get what you're saying, Don. I just think they should be allowed to try out if they want to. It should not be dictated by politicos that women be equally spread throughout the force. A quota system would destroy our force, definitely. If they can meet the standard, then I have no issue. I've talked to a lot of women in the military over the years, and the vast majority recognize that the sexes are physically different and have different physiological strengths/weaknesses. The vast majority also has no desire to be combat arms, or special ops. There are a few who have been affected by the women's lib PC dipsticks, and those I just challenge to throw a ruck on their backs and keep up with me. I've yet to have one of those idiots except the challenge, BTW. Whatever our opinion on this topic, the one constant is that the standards for true warfighters must not be diminished. It takes certain physical strengths to be at the tip of the spear, and failing in that regard leads to unnecessary losses, and destroys our ability to win wars.

We are saying the same thing!

Soldier on...CM

[cj7ox]

Great minds, and all that. Must be my being raised by a crusty old Warrant.  ;)

[Flyin6]

Great minds, and all that. Must be my being raised by a crusty old Warrant.  ;)

I now have sympathy for you...Same as ma' boyz... ;-)

[cj7ox]

Great minds, and all that. Must be my being raised by a crusty old Warrant.  ;)

I now have sympathy for you...Same as ma' boyz... ;-)

LOL! Makes me a little different from most ossifers. I like to think it makes me better!  :o

[Flyin6]

Great minds, and all that. Must be my being raised by a crusty old Warrant.  ;)

I now have sympathy for you...Same as ma' boyz... ;-)

LOL! Makes me a little different from most ossifers. I like to think it makes me better!  :o

Likely so!
I know that coming up through the enlisted ranks to Staff Sergeant, made me a much more aware Warrant Officer than the "High school to flight school" crowd. I don't think I was any better at the technical aspects of flying than them, but the "Boys" sure flocked to me over them. I saw problems I faced as a system that involved man, machine and task. I always heavily weighted the risk part...what NCO's do...

Therein lies the difference perhaps. One of the best commanders I ever served with, John Binkley, who had enlisted time led by example. He placed tasks ahead of us that weren't necessarily safe to do. He talked to me often. He said if you train them right, and when the time comes, let go and trust them, then every time, they will not disappoint, but will rise to the occasion. We had a 40 ship aviation company! Hear that? Forty as in four-zero aircraft with perhaps 250 personnel...in a company! For the three years I flew as a scout pilot in that organization, we had zero accidents. You see, no matter what it took, we would do nothing to disappoint that man, we loved him!

[JR]

Darn, mine was just a crusty old Marine Gunny, but he did OK.

And I agree, anyone can tryout.

[TexasRedNeck]

Don, I just had to laugh.  Not sure if this happens in any real world training but I was in a class with a bunch of dudes and the buddy drag drill came up with some shooting at the end.  So we all line up and the instructors start pairing us up.  Quickly I assess his pattern of matching us up and look in the spot that would the one he pairs me up with....

6'6" and about 360lb....

[JR]

Just roll him,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[OldKooT]

I think there are many women who have more "stones" than many men these days...sad but that's my opinion.

 

[JR]

Stones are great, but that doesn't move a 200lb comrade.

[Flyin6]

But I agree with Norm...

Men these days, and I use the term loosely...are more like women than I am comfortable with. Aren't most a bunch of Wusses? Or is it just me seeing it?

[JR]

Oh, you see just fine.

[cj7ox]

Stones are great, but that doesn't move a 200lb comrade.

But adrenalin can do wonders!

[cj7ox]

But I agree with Norm...

Men these days, and I use the term loosely...are more like women than I am comfortable with. Aren't most a bunch of Wusses? Or is it just me seeing it?

You're not the only one who's made that observation. ZA would take care of that, though.

[TexasRedNeck]

Just roll him,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I didn't roll him but his boots left some deep ruts....

And yes, not many RM left.  Maybe Trump's surge is a resurgence of manly men (not that I am a Trumpkin).  More people seem willing to speak out now than in the recent past.  We shall see

[BobbyB]

But adrenalin can do wonders!

Truth.

[JR]

Truth.

But not sustained.

[BobbyB]

But not sustained.

Objection

[KensAuto]

Order in the court! One more word out of you 2 and I'll.....

[Nate]

what, tell Hillary.............

[TexasRedNeck]

Tha two yoots....

[stlaser]

what, tell Hillary.............

And the rumors spread like wildfire thru the dot camp.....

[JR]

Order in the court! One more word out of you 2 and I'll.....

Well, this,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[KensAuto]

Hahaha

[fenriswolf039]

When I think about women in combat, the first thing that comes to mind is all the litigation that will arise... from the "situations" that WILL happen.

Let's face the facts here, and my wife will agree on this... men and women are NOT equal.  Each exceeds the other in certain ways, and that's all there is to it.

[EL TATE]

God created us differently for reasons. My wife is a freakin' Kodiak grizzly, and if you threaten her kids she will beat you to death with your own arms, but wouldn't know what to do to defend herself in the same situation. Our innate instincts to protect them also factors in and could be catastrophic. If I had an Ironman competition that involved shooting, driving, off road course, welding, bucking hay bales, and boxing, I might pick Kay over some "men" I know, and I know I could depend on my wife for some of those activities as well but she can't help passing out at the sight of blood. Stones count, for sure. But I wouldn't pick me to be left tackle against the Razorbacks at 5'10" 170. Heart can only get one so far.

[Atkinsmatt]

Physiologically we are very different.  Under the stress of carrying heavy loads for long periods of time bodies break down.  Having spent years as a "light fighter", I have seen this too often.  Most women's bodies are not built to handle these stresses.  You don't train and equip fighters for the short term.  This will create unreasonable turnover in units that by nature require cohesion and trust that is only developed over time.

[JR]

I am sure others have seen it too, but it is the same in LE. Many of them pass what they need to get in, but long term there are always issues.

Now there are the exceptions, but rare.

[OldKooT]

Kay was once a Army wife. I am sure the Army is relieved she is no longer there.

[JR]

Something tells me that Kate was one of the exceptions. Don't know why, it just does.

[cj7ox]

Kay was once a Army wife. I am sure the Army is relieved she is no longer there.

Probably because she set the standard and held all the wives to it!