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Offline swbhobie16

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4bt resto
« on: August 17, 2016, 06:14:00 PM »
look what followed me home last night. must have lost a few cylinders along the way..
it was bound to happen sooner or later. hahah







now.. If anyone would be so kind to inform me on what I can do/need for an A series pump. throttle bracketry, turbos, manifolds, etc.

hoping to get it running soon. have a few must have pieces ordered and coming in to the cummins place up the road.

Offline wilsonphil

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2016, 06:56:07 PM »
If you are going to put that in something you will drive I highly recommend you tear it down and get it balanced.

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2016, 07:32:22 PM »
I've heard that 4bts tend to not be as 'naturally balanced' (?) as their bigger brothers.

can anyone explain this?

seems like most medium duty bread/straight trucks use them and don't have much issue (or they just don't care/mind). just curious.. that's all.

my largest concern at the moment (well..2) are that it runs (most important) and that there is some sort of factory bracketry I can use for the throttle.

running is step one.
might just see if someone needs a good motor for a lull. I feel as if I bought the stand and got the motor for free.. so it's not hurting me if I just sell it.

thanks again

Online Flyin6

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2016, 10:02:58 PM »
Those things can be exchanged ounce for ounce for gold for some reason  :o
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2016, 10:04:51 PM »
well I have roughly 8400 Troy ounces sitting here.. hahaha

Online KensAuto

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2016, 10:43:55 PM »
Thanks for holding that for me. I'll be over in the morning to pick it up, it might be perfect for my ol' CJ3A. :)

Online Flyin6

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2016, 11:02:49 PM »
Thanks for holding that for me. I'll be over in the morning to pick it up, it might be perfect for my ol' CJ3A. :)
It would, but Ken ever thought about using an older Mercedes 6 cly diesel?

I wonder if those sedan motors all turned up wouldn't be an undiscovered gem?
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2016, 11:11:18 PM »
Thanks for holding that for me. I'll be over in the morning to pick it up, it might be perfect for my ol' CJ3A. :)

seriously.. it's for sale. I really have no intention on 'using' it. just figured I'd pick it up, clean it up. getting it running (proof) and pass it on down the line..

Online Flyin6

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2016, 08:38:07 AM »
KEN, You see that ^^^^^^^
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2016, 08:55:59 AM »
Thanks for holding that for me. I'll be over in the morning to pick it up, it might be perfect for my ol' CJ3A. :)

what color would you like your engine..? I'm bouncing between cummins beige and red.. hahah

Online KensAuto

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2016, 12:04:51 PM »
Don, there's not enough room for a straight 6 without making a few cuts....I would rather not do that at this point!

Can you make that 4bt Olive Drab metallic? lol




Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2016, 12:07:57 PM »
I suppose I could. but a red cummins would really set it apart. hahah

Offline wilsonphil

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2016, 03:01:42 PM »
I've heard that 4bts tend to not be as 'naturally balanced' (?) as their bigger brothers.

can anyone explain this?

seems like most medium duty bread/straight trucks use them and don't have much issue (or they just don't care/mind). just curious.. that's all.

my largest concern at the moment (well..2) are that it runs (most important) and that there is some sort of factory bracketry I can use for the throttle.

running is step one.
might just see if someone needs a good motor for a lull. I feel as if I bought the stand and got the motor for free.. so it's not hurting me if I just sell it.

thanks again

From what I have seen and have been told none of the BT4 engines were ever "passenger" balanced, yes Cummins did a production balance on every part but it was not as if you were building it for something people would ride in.  Its a low RPM engine and from a industrial standpoint why do something that is not important/required.  do you know what this engine was removed from?  I am not sure about the P-Pump units but I know the stationary units had different IP that the mobile units.

I wont DOT your thread but engine balancing is one of my pet pives from a manufacturing standpoint, I had to remove a factory overhualed Continental engine because it shook so bad, in this day and age it is just plain laziness for a manufacturer not to spend the time to do it right!!!!!!

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2016, 06:38:28 PM »
removed from a lull (most likely 6-8k all terrain forklift) maybe I'll tear it down, but chances are I'm going to end up passing it on down the line. just get all the stuff it needs to make it 'passenger vehicle' ready. just scored an upper and lower water inlet housings, coolant tubes, alternator bracket and coolant pipe brackets. not sure about the lower one just yet (came off a common rail engine and tensioner looks alittle different) I'll check tomorrow

it the trans adapter bolts, starter bolts, dip stick/tube and oil pan gasket. might just be able to get something going tomorrow and Saturday.


Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2016, 06:46:28 PM »
a quick search has yeilded a different serpentine belt routing for the common rails (drastically) than the 12 valves. so.. I'll check with the guy tomorrow to see if he has one from a 12 valve. I can still mount the common rail one up.. but it 'tensions' the wrong way. a 12 valve will be perfect. if I can score than along with a fan pulley, I'll be in business.

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2016, 11:02:07 AM »
hopefully snagging a free exhaust manifold this week to be chopped down to 4. put it on with old gaskets and bolts for the time being to get it running.

took the old starter to the shop to be rebuilt: $320 for that.. or $340 for reman'd so I passed. going to try and locate one for cheaper than that.

I guess I'll put the 1st gen HC1 on it for now. the old '89 crossover might even work since I'll be running a chopped down 6bt manifold too. (if it goes in anything, I'll run an HX35 snd IC)

Hope to get it cleaned the rest of the way this week, snag a starter and fire it up before flipping oil pans or doing a lot of work to it. want to make sure it runs as it should before doing that.

also, is there a gasket for the pimp timing pin on the back of the front gear case? it's either leaking from that or from the tappet cover. might replace that gasket too after its cleaned and painted.. just to make sure

Offline wilsonphil

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2016, 02:18:30 PM »
There is a gasket on the pin housing but not really required, I just used RTV the last time I removed mine.  For the leak it very well might be the gasket between the timing case and the block, they are very prone to leakage.  The big reason is the bolts holding the timing case housing to the block work loose over time, IMO they are more of a cause of engine failure than the dowl pins.  I have a BT6 sitting in my garage that has a broken cam because of these bolts.

If it is that gasket you have to pull the cam out to get to the bolts.

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2016, 07:18:39 PM »
hopefully.. it's not that. once I get in there good with a brush and clean away the grime, run it for a bit.. I'm hoping I can see where it's coming from. fingers crossed its not the timing case gasket. but, im sure those bolts haven't ever had a wrench on them. from what I can tell.. the valve covers have never been off or replaced (painted black over the gray gaskets)

when I pull the front cover off to do KDP, I'll check those bolts. maybe pull them and put locktite on then just to be sure. but it doesn't look like a major leak. just something I noticed.

thoughts on replacing the tappet cover gasket as well..? couldn't that be the cause if it's dry rotted and split in places..?

Offline wilsonphil

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2016, 07:54:16 PM »
I could be that also but when that leaks is usually everywhere.  The gear case gasket is highly suspect though if the leak is coming from that area.  There are two bolts behind the cam gear that come loose over time and that is why is leaks in that area.  When mine started leaking I just cleaned up the whole area and put a nice cover of RTV From the outside.  It didn't stop it but it slowed it way down!

Yes please pull the bolts and loctight them!  At lease the ones you can get too

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2016, 07:58:42 PM »
I'll do it with the 4bt as well the 6bt in the Kaiser when I redo the front crank seal on it.

I should have done it the first time, but I'm having to redo that seal and the timing cover seal as well. so I can just get at them then. going to pull the whole front off anyway to do it. easier now than it will be all reassembled..

thanks for the input.

any thoughts on getting a TV cable to work on the throttle lever of the pump to operate a 47rh..?

Offline wilsonphil

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2016, 08:25:10 PM »
Your running a p-pump on the 715 correct? Or is it a VE

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2016, 08:47:08 PM »
215 hp ppump

Offline wilsonphil

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2016, 12:15:48 AM »
I would go the dodge route, i.e. A stock dodge throttle/ TV cable setup should work that way you could go to any NAPA or Dealer and at least get parts.

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2016, 07:18:36 AM »
that's what we did for his truck, yes sir. so far as I can tell, it's set up as it would have come out of a '95 2500 cummins. I just need/want to make sure that I have it adjusted correctly before I take off down the road to see if it changes through all 3 gears.. any suggestions on setting it up the first time (99% certain I did it correctly when the body was off and has the engine/trans,tcase all hooked together) just want to make sure what I did was correct

i was inquiring about the 4bt with the A series ppump (throttle lever looks alittle different and there is no bracketry on it.. therefore something would have to be made) I think it's doable, just need to know how far the TV cable must travel in order to operator correctly.. a bracket can be made.

again.. that's only if decide to keep the engine and decide to put it in something with the 47rh behind it. I'd much rather put a 4500 behind it.. but I'm getting ahead of myself and thinking I'm keeping it. which I'm not. hahah.

Offline wilsonphil

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2016, 12:28:45 PM »
For the adjustment on the 715 if I remember correctly Dodge calls out a 1/2 or 3/8 gap between the throttle pin and the back of the slot on the T.V. cable if you follow what I am saying.  I always go on the tighter side of things when I set them up, better too tight than too loose! 

For the BT4, what I would do is try to adapt a Dodge setup if possible, for the TV cable I would get one made, you could in theory use a Dodge cable but it you have to find a way to deal with the excess length.  The BT4 powered loader(Case 580) we have is a P-Pump unit and its pretty close to a Dodge setup.

IMO the BT4 is a great engine, that being said unless whatever I was going to put it in I could not in any way put a BT6 in I would not use it.  to me there is not enough of an advantage to justify, you don't get much of a weight savings over a BT6 and you can make a whole lot more power with the 6.  Also if you and the machine can take the vibration of the 4, it mite take all the fun out of driving what ever you put it in if you have to replace a bunch of stuff every time you go somewhere! 

I am not saying its a bad idea but just make sure you understand what you getting yourself into, if it were me and I was dead set on using it I would tear it down and have it 100% balanced so you have to ask yourself do you really want to go that far? 

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2016, 08:47:07 PM »
well.. I think I have the engine sold to Ken. hahah

but really.. I believe i have the TV cable adjusted correctly in the 715. drove down east a bit last night and picked up a 23 spline np 205, adapter and coupler, dodge steering box, 1st gen starter and a piece of exhaust to use for the intake cover on the Kaiser.. all for $100.
going to clean the tcase up, twin stick the shift rail, put a gasket kit on it, paint it and put it away for the crew cab build in the future.

got the guts of the 1st gen starter swapped over to the 2nd gen bolt housing (so it'll mate to the thicker trans adapter) and hopefully get it spinning tomorrow. (potentially on its own after it gets some fuel through the lines..  8) )

I believe i have the lower water inlet at a salvage yard down the street, as well as a fan pulley bracket (to have it look like the front of a 6bt)

after I make sure it runs and has good oil pressure, I'll finish cleaning it/changing gaskets/paint it and send it on its way.

a buddy of mine may end up with it for an old Land Rover build he's planning on in the future, or possibly another friend who I'm trying to talk into slipping it in a scout II or traveler, but if not i hope to make a couple bucks on the flip.  any idea what they go for..? I've seen all sorts of numbers, but I'll be selling it with proof of running and with the buyer able to come and turn it on in person.

Online KensAuto

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2016, 10:10:06 PM »
20 bucks. At least, that's what I remember them going for at the boat anchor salvage yard. :)

Offline Sammconn

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2016, 10:29:30 PM »
Ken...don't lowball him that low...
I just don't want to wind up missing a digit or limb.  I can sometimes get in a hurry to get results.
Sam

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2016, 10:46:33 PM »
for $20.. I'll give you 4 of the 8 bolts that hold the trans adapter to the block. cummins proud of their stuff. hahah

Ken, I can PM a vid of it running. or.. just slap it right here for all to see (I'm speaking positive thoughts before I turn it over tomorrow. hahah)

Online KensAuto

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2016, 11:10:02 PM »
Let her rip....here of course...and be sure to use plenty of ether for our entertainment!! (jk)

Online Flyin6

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2016, 09:13:01 AM »
Yea, Vid for sure...
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2016, 06:58:23 PM »
so.. it runs.

cranked it for 10 sec on a weak battery and it started to hit. didn't even crack a line. had to do it a couple more times with my hand on the throttle. it was beating/hunting pretty hard. but the throttle was 'fighting' me. I checked the oil cooler and it was leaking (knew it would be) and the turbo feed was spilling out of the drain tube. (taped them together for now). going to plug the turbo feed when testing from now on.

so.. fixed the leaks (hopefully) and I think I still have some air in the lines since it's hitting on 2-3 cylinders. but.. I'll get some hoses on it and full it with water so hopefully i can run it alittle longer next time.

Offline Sammconn

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2016, 07:18:57 PM »
Well that a start...pardon the pun.
I'm not sure plugging the turbo oiling is in your best interest tho.
I just don't want to wind up missing a digit or limb.  I can sometimes get in a hurry to get results.
Sam

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2016, 08:51:12 PM »
I'm not sure why not..? it's just plugging it right out of the filter housing

I guess i didn't mention the turbo is off the manifold.. my mistake.

either way.. I may stick it on there tmrw for fun, provided I can find the 10mm bolts that hold the oil drain to the bottom of the turbo.

it didn't smoke or anything when I first fired it.. but it did blow some moisture out of manifold and (since it's an upward facing exhaust/turbo mounting flange) it rained little black rain drops down. hahah. not sure what it was all about.. but only seemed to be that first time.

I also took the intake manifold off and there was only a spot or 2 of new surface rust. I suspect a bad intake gasket when was cleaning the engine the other.. but it wiped out with no issue and looks ok.

Offline Sammconn

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2016, 09:04:10 PM »
Turbos off then no issue.
Was just worried with it on...

Carry on!
I just don't want to wind up missing a digit or limb.  I can sometimes get in a hurry to get results.
Sam

Offline JR

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2016, 01:41:50 AM »
What, no video on the run, bahh!!!

Hey if you do have some extra water inlet-outlets I could interested. With raising the AC up on my 6bt my front facing upper won't work, needs to face up. May also need a front facing for the lower. I have one thats called for but it looks like it may stick out to far.
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2016, 06:42:39 AM »
I have a water outlet (upper hose) that sticks straight up that came on the engine. I snapped a newer style that comes out and then points to the drivers side (figured it would be more appealing to the buyer/Ken to have a cross flow radiator. hahaha

Offline JR

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2016, 10:05:45 AM »
I have the same that goes out the front but need one going up to clear the alt support.

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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2016, 09:49:53 AM »
I'll get a picture of what I have next week. it doesn't have an alternator mount on it, so you'd have to come up with something for that. this one runs straight up next to the engine lift point

Offline JR

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2016, 11:30:36 AM »
Yeah, think it may need the alt mount.
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2016, 09:02:25 PM »
I don't know where you'll find an upward discharge tstat housing with alternator mount. it wouldn't be hard to bolt/weld on a pipe sleeve to hold the upper alternator mount.

Offline JR

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2016, 11:37:13 PM »
Think this fits;
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2016, 07:46:37 AM »
I think that's what I have, but it doesn't have the conventional alternator bracket holes like your 6bt has.. if I'm not mistaken. maybe it'll work out though. I'll get a pic of what I have tomorrow.

Offline JR

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2016, 12:28:12 PM »
I'm going to the mid mount AC which mounts the Alt to this bracket # 3930820

The holes are 2.75 apart.

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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2016, 12:45:27 PM »
that's perfect. that's the 'bracket' I was going to make. and in exactly the same way too. hahah

Offline JR

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2016, 01:53:59 PM »
Well, now you have a PN for it and it takes a GM type alt with internal regulator.
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2016, 08:32:18 PM »
big day today











I'm hoping to be able to rotate the housing on the HX30 so I can adjust the oil feed/drain holes correctly. can anyone confirm exactly how it's done? it looks as if I can loosen the clamp and rotate it around.. but it's stuck. quite stuck actually. what can be done to free it?

valve covers will be cleaned and new gaskets installed.

we shall see about firing it up again. I'd like to have the turbo on and possibly some water running through it for that..

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2016, 07:33:12 PM »
got alittle bit more cleaned up today. waiting on mounting the turbo and rotating the housing before I fire it again (just so the oil has somewhere to go) hahah. I'm fairly confident that once the air bleeds out of the system it will fire and run just fine.








Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2016, 07:12:46 PM »
got her fired up. send a vid to a guy who txted me about it and he was at the shop 2 days later with a first full of $$. so it's in VA now. being transplanted into a 78 bronco. hahah

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 4bt resto
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2016, 08:52:29 PM »
last update on the 4bt (in my possession). since this.. the guy i sold it to has sent me some pics of it and just yesterday a vid of it running with all accessories. looks great and will be awesome with the ZF5 he has for it. can't wait to see it in the full size bronco

http://s620.photobucket.com/user/swbhobie16/media/695A167B-7613-452D-962D-9B3A45DCFEC2.mp4.html