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Offline stlaser

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How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« on: August 24, 2016, 11:29:38 PM »
So as some of you know I have a fondness for propane. From having an old dump truck & EB Rock crawler running on it. Or powering a generator & heating shops / homes to then cooking up a Sunday evening dinner on the bbq it has many uses.

It is a desirable and available energy source in a time of crisis. Easily could be used as a commodity for barter. It is also a fuel that can be bought in very large quantities provided you have an approved container. It will store for several generations as long as the storage tank holds. So as stated it has advantages for those with the knowledge on how to acquire, transport & not blow yourself up in the process.

With this thread I'm going to cover a few aspects. At the present time I am finishing up getting a bulk storage tank "hooked" up so they (propane dealer) will come inspect & fill it. Yes, that is correct typically they will not fill a bulk tank unless it is hooked up to an appliance so they can test the line to make sure it is not leaking or endangering yourself (see thread title if questions on this part). The other option if you don't have it hooked up is to buy a million dollar liability insurance policy for a year & go through proper training. Training is normally provided at little or no cost by the supplier & they certify you to fill bbq & other portable tanks etc from what is called a wet leg, a little more on that term later.

In this process I will be detailing part numbers and rough figures for what it's costing me to setup this system in hippy land Colorado. I by no means claim to be an expert or advise you to do anything. If any questions or concerns please consult your local propane or gas suppliers. They are normally very helpful & knowledgeable.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 11:35:51 PM by stlaser »
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Offline stlaser

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2016, 11:41:14 PM »
A little back ground, when I owned my farm in Indiana I had equipment (skid loader, large trailer & truck). So that if I found a good deal on a tank I could go out pick it up & bring it home, no problem. When the housing crisis hit in 08, it was a buyers market & I bought several tanks for the price of the fuel in them before the homes were repossessed. A lot of home owners own their own tanks and a simple ad on CL was easy to maintain.
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2016, 08:52:14 AM »
Glad you're sharing this Shawn.

How long does one of the larger, 500-1000 gallon tank last, or is it a "Condition" thing?

Obviously I am looking at putting one down at the farm PDQ
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Offline Nate

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2016, 01:04:14 PM »
interesting
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Offline stlaser

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2016, 01:38:44 PM »
Glad you're sharing this Shawn.

How long does one of the larger, 500-1000 gallon tank last, or is it a "Condition" thing?

Obviously I am looking at putting one down at the farm PDQ

The internal of a tank will last forever, there is oil in propane. I will get into that later when we start talking regulators etc. So really it is about the external condition & how you maintain it.

To get you started a tank to buy one used in working condition will run you right at about a $1 per every gallon it holds when talking 500 or 1000 gal tanks. Back in Indiana guys wanted a little more for the 1k tanks but they weren't as in abundance of supply. 500 gallon tanks were a dime a dozen. Now in my case there I had several 500 gallon tanks & would swap them out as needed. Basically move them in & out with the equipment (booking it up to house when I needed it filled etc). Cheapest time to fill them is the summer months & they always run special. Keep in mind propane weighs 4.2 #'s per gallon & the tare weight of the tank is on the id plate. All bulk tanks have an id plate, if it does not or is missing they will not fill it & all you have is a very expensive bulk air storage tank. I've personally come across guys trying to sell tanks minus id tags for full price. They are or should be considered scrap or salvage value only.

Now, here in hippy land my 120 gal bulk tank ran me three bills. But it's smaller & can be moved with my engine hoist.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 01:48:00 PM by stlaser »
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Offline Bob Smith

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2016, 02:58:12 PM »
Here in WA if you want it closer than 10 ft to a building it has to be the 120 gal or less in size. I guess at your farm you don't need to worry about that requirement.

Offline stlaser

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2016, 03:37:17 PM »
Very good point & glad you brought it up. That is correct & it's a national standard / code I believe. At the farm it didn't matter as we had acreage, here in hippy land where the houses are only 50' apart it matters & I believe if it is over 120 gallon it also must be more than 10' from your neighbors property.

The other thing & not sure if it's a code or they just frown on it. Is that the oblong horizontal tanks are not supposed to have their ends pointed towards a structure. My guess is from my back ground in fabrication that if the tank would explode that the ends would rip apart from the main body at the weld seams and act as a projectile towards which ever way they are facing.
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Offline stlaser

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2016, 08:54:20 AM »
Couple quick updates, first I'm still waiting on some parts that I ordered a month ago. Couple are kind of specialty as normally only propane distributors ( i.e.: someone transferring propane tank to tank would need ) think hard to come by when you need it especially if it's taking a month now.

Realize I'm always learning as I go here as well and part of this is me sharing all of these headaches er I mean useful experiences. So as you know living here in suburbia (hippy land per Ken) the large tanks take space as they have to be X feet from this or that. The 120 gallon which I have are not as restricted in several key areas. They also weigh full under 900# which is important for me. The first less restriction being where they are located to some extent, they still need to be 10' from any fire source. So I had the dealer come out to look at filling the tank yesterday. We had a disagreement, you see they run these type tanks at rv parks all the time with rubber hoses laying on the ground to the rv. Apparently that's ok but me doing it to my shed laying the hose down a 6" drop beside the concrete walk ten feet to the shed was a big no no. Something like my 50# golden retriever might step on it & damage the hose ::). So after listening to him go on and on about that & how it needed to be poly pipe buried 18" below ground & I needed gen set exhaust vented from shed as the open 40" door on an 8'x10' shed didn't give it enough ventilation for a 5kw portable gen set I thanked him and sent him in his way.

So after that "experience" and knowing a little about DOT regs I decided to load said tank up & take it to another dealer. Now I realize I stated prior I have transported larger tanks myself. As H would say it's a little fuzzy and I can't recall. So here's the deal, as long as your tank (weight of tank and fuel when tank is FULL) is under 1k# it can be legally transported by any person. Once you pass that barrier if the DOT catches you it will not be a pleasant "experience" for you. Unless you have all the Hazmat endorsements and proper signage on said transport vehicle. Is it possible to move these tanks via roads that do not see a lot of traffic? I would say it's possible but again do not recall ever doing such a thing myself. Also worth noting, tarps are good at keeping wondering eyes from knowing what it is that you have on said trailer. Don't ask how I know as again it's a little fuzzy and I don't recall...... ;)

So after little thought tank was loaded into trailer and transported to another local dealer. Worth noting even at 900# the guy in charge wanted to lecture me on DOT practices and advised I not even transport this in the future. Old vet filling said tank put his two cents in and stated how and why it was legal etc. I played moderator and told them I had experience with the nice DOT via prior steel transportation and I would stay off interstates and take it easy. That seemed to lighten the discussion and after me paying for the fuel and a recertification of tank ($10 fee) and old vet eye balling it all over then spraying soap on the valves it was gtg for another five years with a shiny new recert sticker on it. Note: I've never had large tanks certified, nor when dealer came out were they ever worried about it. The guys who come out to look at your setup do a visual and check for leaks FYI so it's a certification minus the sticker.

So I did make it home just fine without any further experiences. Guess the rubber hose and door open on shed will suffice........
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 09:05:47 AM by stlaser »
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Offline stlaser

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2016, 10:24:04 PM »
Fun stuff Wet Leg info......

First and foremost if you have never filled a BBQ tank yourself and are not familiar with this equipment watch some videos on it and learn how to not over pressurize a BBQ tank!

OK, so an expensive and needed part showed up today and I want to discuss it. This is a part you need if you want to fill the smaller BBQ tanks and have no pump like they have at the filling stations. Yes, you can use a high pressure hose and some cold running water and do it that way too but we're assuming if you're filling bbq tanks then cold running water may not be available.

So on larger bulk tanks (at least all of them I owned from 250 gallon up thru 1000 gallon) had a liquid port on the top of the tank and it looks like this. My 120 Gallon tank I have currently does not and I really don't care. By the time I run it dry and need to fill BBQ tanks I will have located other sources. However, unlike most people I will have a way to fill their BBQ tanks which will be of value, either to myself or possibly someone who has something I would like to be able to compensate them for with a useful skill and equipment.

Liquid Port



top of a standard large bulk tank



If you pull the cap off of this liquid port you will see a little plunger down in the hole. Basically what this amounts to is you can screw a fitting on to this port but unless you have a fitting with a rod in the center it will not open this valve.

The valve I purchased has a lever to actuate that plunger from the outside. Some of these valves just have a rod and it will not actuate the tank valve until it is fully screwed on the fitting. That allows some pane to leak out when removing your valve.

I purchased the Rego PN 7590U-20 shown here with plunger retracted see where my pointer finger and thumb are directed towards.



then lever down to remove liquid pane



then a diagram of said valve



Now that I have the hard part in my possession I will be acquiring the other components to complete the assembly such as a ball valve and length of high pressure hose with coupler for those small portable tanks.





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Offline wyorunner

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How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2016, 12:58:06 AM »
So, this spring when I had my tank topped up, it's a 500 gal (400 when filled because some expansion stuff tank can't be filled over 80%), I had them install what they called a Y2K kit. It is the above mentioned setup, high pressure hose with nozzle on the tank. It cost about 100$ for the parts and to have them install it. I will say, I like the part you've got there that can be removed without wasting fuel. Mine is the simpler type that has a permanently fixed rod in the down position. Thanks for the info on this topic though! If you need parts I don't know what they would cost from my local dealer but I'd be glad to get them for you and mail them. I did it so I can fill smaller tanks, didn't even think about the trade factor of it though! Thanks for that.


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« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 12:59:16 AM by wyorunner »

Offline Bigdave_185

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2016, 04:25:51 PM »
Knowledge is power!


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Offline stlaser

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2016, 04:33:34 PM »
For the record they are proud of that part above........

I paid $265 delivered, yes there are less expensive routes but I had access to one in the past. Since I no longer had access to it I decided to invest in one.......

I'll keep a tally but guessing that the total setup will be over three bills when assembled.
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Offline stlaser

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2016, 10:33:02 AM »
OK, so more info. I'm getting my "stuff" ready to go at the moment. With that said I think we need to discuss regulators. First there are many different regulators out there for various applications. Your local propane component supplier is usually a good guy with oodles of info and will not want to come out and verify what you have for liability concerns as a propane distributor would.

Here are two examples of two very different regulators. Both are made by fisher, the red unit (smaller) is a single stage. It's what you would find mounted at the tank on say a typical house setup where they are running for a long distance but need a lot of flow for say multiple appliances. This type of regulator will keep the oil out of the line and keep it from freezing in the winter. If you hooked up to a tank and ran it a distance the possibility of the line freezing comes into play. You would also see these types on say a winterized RV hook up. The large RV's typically have a 2 stage regulator on them that will drop the pressure before allowing it to enter the interior. You don't want high pressure in an enclosed space. The model # on this is R122H-AAJ it is a new unit and if you need one I'm willing to sell it as I do not need it for my setup currently. 

The larger grey unit is a standard 2 stage, you see these mounted on the exterior of homes. They drop the pressure before allowing it to enter the structure. My farm house had two of these on the exterior, I ran one line to the water heater and furnace and another ran to our gas stove and dryer. Worth noting that little red style above fed both of the dual stage regulators feeds. I personally am running that 2 stage unit at my 120 gal tank and it will run my grill, gen set and a camp stove if needed etc. I am not running the high pressure red unit as my run is only around 12' from tank to appliance.

Also worth noting, all regulators have a vent. The regulator should be placed under the cover of the supply tank or should be hung facing down as to not allow rain in to the vent. In areas with heavy snow you will want this mounted high enough to keep it out of snow drifts etc.

 
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 10:38:25 AM by stlaser »
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Offline Bob Smith

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2016, 12:22:09 PM »
How nice it is to have a propane expert on site. Good job explaining the regulators. Mine is set up with a 120 gal tank right next to the garage. Only one regulator, and the piping supplying only the gas heater inside the garage. The gas company I am using checks out the system each year and does a keep full service for me even though it is the smaller tank.  I am out of area for the winter, so one less thing to worry about. Wouldn't hurt to not have the garage heated I guess but the boat and old cars like it to be a bit warm and I don't worry about all the other stuff freezing either.

Offline stlaser

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2016, 04:59:02 PM »
How nice it is to have a propane expert on site. Good job explaining the regulators. Mine is set up with a 120 gal tank right next to the garage. Only one regulator, and the piping supplying only the gas heater inside the garage. The gas company I am using checks out the system each year and does a keep full service for me even though it is the smaller tank.  I am out of area for the winter, so one less thing to worry about. Wouldn't hurt to not have the garage heated I guess but the boat and old cars like it to be a bit warm and I don't worry about all the other stuff freezing either.


I would never call myself an expert, whole diabolical narcissistic tendency thing going on there that I try to stay away from. On the other hand I am not afraid to try and fail with some knowledgeable assistance as such is how I ended up with a little high pressure regulator I have no current use for.......

On your 120 setup my guess is it was a short enough and minimal use they threw on a 2 stage only, same reason I am doing it on my current setup.
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Offline Wilbur

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2016, 03:12:26 AM »
Im glad for this thread! I am in the process of changing from an electric stove (which my wife wanted when we built our house) to a propane stove. (We have no natural gas lines serving the houses which I am glad of). So I need to get a tank and plumber to run the line. A friend nearby who recently made the switch said the plumber wanted $500 and the tank from the propane dealer is about $15 a month rental fee in addition to the propane. When I was a kid we had bottled gas and they were installed near the kitchen at the back of the house. The propane guy would bring 100 lb bottles and hook them up when they ran out. Couldn't I get a couple of these tanks from Lowe's and take them and have them filled at a local dealer?

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Worthington-Pro-Grade-100-lb-Propane-Tank/1080473?cm_mmc=SCE_PLA-_-SeasonalLiving-_-GrillAccessories-_-1080473:Worthington_Pro_Grade&CAWELAID=&kpid=1080473&CAGPSPN=pla&store_code=1889&k_clickID=e0b80b1d-2a25-4f8f-9b16-07e4e00dfcdc

The stove is gas for the range only the oven is electric so I am not thinking we will use boatloads of the stuff. Am I wrong in thinking about this this way?

Offline Sammconn

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2016, 07:37:45 AM »
I run my cabin of of 100 pounders. You'll still need the right regulator, but then it becomes easy.
As long as you're comfortable running the line to the stove.
I just don't want to wind up missing a digit or limb.  I can sometimes get in a hurry to get results.
Sam

Offline stlaser

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2016, 08:10:04 AM »
100#'ers will work fine, its low pressure so when running the line and checking joints I've used a BBQ grill lighter to see if I had leaks.  :o Yeah, soapy water works too but as long as you check the joint shortly after turning on the valve and you can turn it off if you find a leak it's not an issue.
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Offline Sammconn

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2016, 09:19:09 AM »
100#'ers will work fine, its low pressure so when running the line and checking joints I've used a BBQ grill lighter to see if I had leaks.  :o Yeah, soapy water works too but as long as you check the joint shortly after turning on the valve and you can turn it off if you find a leak it's not an issue.
Exactly how I leak check the stove every time we move it for cleaning or whatever.
Mama just shakes her head and backs up.
But it is better, no messy soap water to clean, and you're dang sure there are no leaks.
I just don't want to wind up missing a digit or limb.  I can sometimes get in a hurry to get results.
Sam

Offline stlaser

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2021, 08:55:59 PM »
Someone southernly was asking about the wet leg info, seems this may be a good time to bring this back to the top.
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2021, 11:30:54 PM »
Doesn’t seem like you finished the part tally with specific hoses, valves and how to fill parts....


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Offline stlaser

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2021, 12:33:57 AM »
Doesn’t seem like you finished the part tally with specific hoses, valves and how to fill parts....


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Charles, the difficult part is the valve which I mentioned above to tap the wet leg of the tank. Many options for a propane compatible hose including length and diameter / end fittings. This will largely depend on source tank as there are many sizes and some have wet kit located on top or bottom. I’d suggest a propane approved 1/4 turn shutoff valve at small tank end. When filling open the bleeder valve to allow head pressure to release. When bleeder starts spitting fluid it’s 80% full so shut off valve and bleeder screw. Make sure you’re wearing protective gloves and safety glasses. Any questions ask.

You can also fill from vapor side of a larger tank however that requires a scale and weighing tank to know amount of liquid in tank and also the smaller tank has to be chilled to allow vapor to turn to liquid once it enters smaller tank. This probably makes this scenario a non starter in an event where things may be getting spicey.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 07:29:23 AM by stlaser »
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2021, 06:43:07 AM »
Thanks Shawn so on the standard 20# propane tank you just fill till the OPD kicks in or do you weight it too?


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Offline stlaser

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Re: How not to blow yourself up with Propane
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2021, 07:27:48 AM »
Thanks Shawn so on the standard 20# propane tank you just fill till the OPD kicks in or do you weight it too?


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Using bleeder (small flathead screw on side of valve of small tank opened while filling) and pulling from wet leg on large tank so you’re pulling liquid and not vapor there is no need for a scale. The liquid starts spitting out at 80% full of small tank.
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