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Offline Wilbur

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E85 and our govt
« on: January 04, 2017, 02:38:24 PM »
So Koot's "Don't Try this at Home" thread mentions E85 when running on the track. I knew E85 was an ethanol somethingorother but didn't know much about it. So I googled it. And low and behold...found yet another example of our gov't acting like imbeciles....I know I know....you're as shocked and dismayed as I was.... :facepalm:

So here's what I learned from a Road & Track article....so....it all must be true right? I read it on the interwebs....but when it comes to the "stupid govt part" I have no doubt they got it right... :rolleyes:

E85 is approximately 85% ethanol and 15% real gas. It has higher octane at usually 100 to 105. It does provide a HP increase but it also kills gas mileage (by about 30%). Oh....Kee....Doh.....Kee.....why all the Flex Fuel Vehicles (FFV) out there if they get 30% less mileage running E85? The govt in their smugness about all things Global Warming related only counts the 15% that is real gas when calculating the fuel mileage of FFV's. So (the article used a Chevy Tahoe for their comparisons) the Chevy Tahoe which gets 20.1 mpg on gas now miraculously gets 33.3 mpg!

And the gov't set CAFE standards for fleets that they get 22.2 mpg average for light trucks (and 27.5 mpg for cars). Failure to do so leads to Michelle Obama coming to your house and cooking you dinner (and it wont be anything remotely similar to what shows up in the What You Had For Dinner thread!), all the while telling you what a horrible person you and your family is. Oh....and they fine the bejeebers out of ya too. 

So GM basically gives away FFV for the same price as gas guzzling pig Tahoe's (they don't have a special shiny sticker for those however like they do the FFV ones....I guess GM's lawyers frowned on a big middle finger sticker as not being in the "spirit" of all things Global Warming) because it boosts their overall fleet mpg.

So the bottom line of all this is that GM saved about $200MM in fines (and lord knows how many Michelle Obama salads and dry toast) for selling FFV's like they do. Pretty smart of them if ya' aks me. So now I know what Koot is running in Miss Kay's sleeper and also why I keep seeing FFV's out there. Aren'cha glad I asked?  :laugh:

Here's the article I stole....um read...for research into this subject....
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/ethanol-promises-e85-and-fuel-economy-page-7


Offline Dawg25385

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Re: E85 and our govt
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2017, 04:00:53 PM »
Corn lobby is involved too, I suspect.

Ethanol can be made much more effectively out of sugarcane, but we put import tariffs on that.... and all that sugar produced in Florida and Louisiana is required for pop and candy to keep us all fat

Of course, I could be wrong about it all. But I would be surprised if that had something to do with it. Bet norm has a more educated opinion on the matter


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Offline OldKooT

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Re: E85 and our govt
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2017, 07:44:09 PM »
Well first, none of my opinions are educated LoL

E85 is just moonshine with unleaded gasoline added. We have a few large stills, aka booze plants, or for the city folks "ethanol plants" around here.

Corn, sugar cane, switch grass, and other things can be used to make shine. Here in the USA it's largely corn, Brazil uses cane...I suppose arguably, whatever you have local makes the most sense to a degree. 

Flex fuel SUV's and cars are largely a scam. And here is why..... again my opinion. One part of it is what Wilbur posted regarding all the fuel economy laws and how E85 vehicles help skirt some of them. The other is the use of ethanol in almost all fuel made these days.

I mean WHO ties our food sources and costs to petroleum? That's what we did when we advocated the use of ethanol in our gasoline.

If you have a flex fuel car or truck your economy on E85 will drop drastically. As well as HP and drive-ability in many cases. So in effect without getting too involved it's a scam.

Does it help the American farmer? Well it's subsidized and we have three booze plants local here...so I think in some cases it can and does. But one could argue grain futures, markets and the in's and outs of all that....or take my word for it it's not helping in reality.

After all the Chinese are buying every kernel of corn at prices above what the booze plants pay...so who do you think the grain gets sold to? At some point suddenly the booze plant will also pay above market and buy corn, usually when they run out......it's all a game.

Now... to explain E85 and why it sucks in a SUV especially I will use this simple example. Back in WW2 days my gramps made shine as did many to run their tractors and equipment on...he explained all they did to be flex fuel happy, was engage the choke tell it ran smooth, the reduced power was compensated for with more timing, and they made it work.

On his Model A pickup he shaved the heads and used common hot rodder tricks to up the compression, a extra carb for more fuel, and away you went. This worked well enough in warm weather, not so good in cooler weather. As it cooled off he had to mix gasoline and other stuff to keep it running...

Your modern SUV is no different... the computers can adjust to the booze content in the fuel to a degree, but it's impossible to make a Engine perform the same with both fuels using identical component...so it's a compromise. Your economy drops even on E10 as it's called in some states...or just 87 octane as it's sold in others. So if wanting to use less fuel, why promote reduced economy? The pot thickens....

where E85 shines... Boosted applications. Because of the increased octane, and the natural cooling properties of E85 a 11:1 engine under boost like in my wife's car, can be tuned to run way stronger than it can on gasoline.

Example: With those monster injectors E85 requires (100lb/hr) And 3 fuel pumps feeding them I can bump timing immensely..add to that the cooling effect of E85 and her inter cooler makes a denser yet air mixture....all that adds to significant HP increases and efficiency. Cram more air in, add more fuel, go more faster LoL

Now... what gets me is why Ford or Gm lets say doesn't build supercharged E85 SUV's....it could be done.

One more thing.... on E85 making over 800hp we got 26mpg driving it carefully on the freeway. Just food for thought, but that's about the best it did stock on 91 octane. Hammer the throttle a little and single digits here we come...takes a lot of fuel to make 800hp, and even more if on E85. Then again...it uses fuel like a blue bird school bus uphill in a headwind when wide open on gasoline also...pay ta play.








Norm

Are you a prepper?  "No, whats a prepper? I am just a mildly OCD farmer"

Online KensAuto

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Re: E85 and our govt
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2017, 04:08:26 PM »
Good job Kooter. good job my friend.

Offline moto123

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Re: E85 and our govt
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2017, 01:53:07 PM »
Someone please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I was also under the assumption that this E85 scam had one other benefit to the country as a whole.  If oil reserves deplete, or if we are not able to get oil from outside sources anymore, we could continue to produce E85 using mostly domestic corn and domestic oil for many years.  While a cease in production of regular gas would cause issues for non flex fuel engines, because of the "MPG mandated" flex fuel vehicles currently in production, the country could continue operating at a reduced capacity.  That is to say, if E85 is the only option, there are already enough vehicles in our country that can operate on it so as to not shut us down completely.  Sort of a back up plan if you will.  We have the technology and vehicles already tested and ready to use if it becomes necessary.

Offline OldKooT

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Re: E85 and our govt
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2017, 05:32:25 PM »
I think the concept of E85 as a backup on a very limited scale makes sense. I do however highly doubt that the concept of redundancy was why it was tied to Food costs. But if you pay attention to currency manipulation on both our side and china. One could see why it would work in our benefit to tie it to fuel...prices of corn artificially rise...because of the new "demand" China is suddenly paying a lot more for grain....we did something similar with the prices of scrap iron, not long before China needed a lot of scrap metal for the Olympics. Just food for thought....

Secondarily...our infrastructure depends on Diesel not gasoline. Without Diesel, no one has much reason to drive anywhere if you think about it.







Norm

Are you a prepper?  "No, whats a prepper? I am just a mildly OCD farmer"

Offline cj7ox

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Re: E85 and our govt
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2017, 03:02:54 PM »
Secondarily...our infrastructure depends on Diesel not gasoline. Without Diesel, no one has much reason to drive anywhere if you think about it.

Which makes it more green to advocate for bio-diesel. It blows my mind that all the "green" nuts keep refusing to look in that direction. I mean, come on! Making bio-diesel can be considered recycling in the truest sense. It also produces less impact on the environment than all the "green" electric/hybrid cars with their nuclear-waste-like batteries. I guess it's more about appearances than actual environmental sense. All that black smoke is "ugly" looking. LOL
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