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Offline Dfarm01

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a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« on: January 16, 2017, 02:59:34 PM »
I finally got my truck back in the garage, and got the 318 swapped for a 360 and got my transmission and transfer case installed. (Truck is/was a 74 dodge crew cab x200, 2wd/automatic.  Donor vehicle was an 86 w250 with a 360/manual trans.)

I ran Into a problem with the rear drive shaft.  My truck had a 2 piece drive shaft with the carrier bearing on a cross member toward the rear of the cab.  The donor truck had a one piece shaft.  The output for the rear on the t-case points straight at the pinion on the rear axle, but the cross member for the carrier bearing is in he way, and it looks like a one piece drive shaft would be about 8' long.  I originally planned to have the front section of the two piece drive shaft modified to fit but the carrier bearing is higher than the output on the t-case, so the drive shaft would go up then down to the axle.  The cross member that the carrier bearing bolts onto is riveted to the frame, which isn't a huge deal, but I think I want to keep a cross member in there, instead of cutting it out of the way.

I'm guessing that from the factory this truck would have used a divorced transfer case that bolted to that cross member.

Any tips or help would be appreciated, any pictures of running gear on converted or factory 4x4 crew cab dodge trucks of this vintage would be awesome. I'm a little over my head on this project, but that's what keeps it fun.  The suspension is all done, steering is done, and after I get driveshafts figured out, I'll be over the hump and back into areas that I'm more comfortable with.

Thanks!

Offline Farmer Jon

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2017, 03:05:06 PM »
You could have a one piece driveshaft made. The newer Chevy crew cab long box trucks have a one piece. If they are not 8 ft long they are darn close to it.
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Online stlaser

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2017, 03:08:08 PM »
Where's Norm? He probably has a pile of used parts to get you all fixed up...
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Offline Dfarm01

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2017, 03:28:28 PM »
A one piece shaft will hit the cross member that the carrier bearing used to mount to. I would prefer to keep as much bracing in the frame as possible. I thought about a new cross member with a driveline loop in it, but I don't want to lose too much ground clearance, as I have no intent of lifting the truck at all.

I was also thinking about raising up the transfer case to make my idea with the two piece shaft work.

I was hoping to avoid custom fabrication by using all factory stuff, but it looks like that may not work.  This is my first big project like this. Any one part of it wasn't scary to me, but putting all those parts together made it a little scary for some reason.

Ive wished several times I'd have just fixed up the donor truck, but I was in love with the crew cab.  I hope I like it when it's finished. Lol

Online stlaser

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2017, 03:59:46 PM »
I'd run a one piece & modify that cross member. Take it for what it's worth, we haven't saw pictures & im not familiar with those Dodges like Norm is. However, modifying a cross member isn't "high tec" fan work either. A new shaft will be balanced & gtg too.
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Offline KensAuto

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2017, 04:00:42 PM »
I would just block the carrier down with a spacer ...like using square tubing, 1"2"3", whatever gives you the right angle.

« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 04:01:41 PM by KensAuto »

Offline KensAuto

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2017, 04:03:17 PM »
I'd run a one piece & modify that cross member. Take it for what it's worth, we haven't saw pictures & im not familiar with those Dodges like Norm is. However, modifying a cross member isn't "high tec" fan work either. A new shaft will be balanced & gtg too.

Or this, if you want a one piece. like stlaser said, not high tec....pretty simple.

Offline Dfarm01

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2017, 04:16:04 PM »
I'll  try to get some pictures tonight.

How would cross members be modified "normally" (I know it depends on a lot) to clear a drive shaft that would run right through them?  Would it be ok to build an arch from c channel and weld it to the top, then cut the offending piece out?

What about using spacers to raise the t case up to where the carrier bearing would work as is?

Thanks a ton for the help.

Online stlaser

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2017, 04:31:19 PM »
Motor, trans and t-case should be sitting fairly level. Motor anyhow as you want carb level front to rear. If you start shimming t-case couple things to keep in mind is that you don't want to put it in a bind and break the trans housing or coupler housing depending on setup. You also will need to t-case supported so if you "shim" it what are you doing for other supports or is this the only mount for it?
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Offline Dfarm01

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2017, 04:43:33 PM »
The only mount for the transmission/transfer case assembly is under the t-case on a cross member.  Only that mount and the two engine mounts hold the drivetrain in place. I'll check how level the engine sits tonight also.  It's possible that when I put the engine cross member in, I put it in too high, but I'm pretty sure it's ok.(I think there were dimples in the frame, or most of the holes from the 2wd cross member matched up? It's been a while. Lol)

If I was to raise up the t-case, I'd put a spacer between the t-case mount and the cross member.  I've already chopped a hole in the floor, making it a little bigger to clear doesn't scare me. Lol

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2017, 07:09:04 PM »
With all that said, I take it you are dealing with a 2wd to 4wd issue which would explain the cross member issues and probably diff engine mount locations.

So since you have it all in and the motor is level, the 1 piece shaft is the way to go as the others said. Notching the crossmember should be easy enough and solve your issues.
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Offline Dfarm01

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2017, 09:14:24 PM »
Here are a few pics.

First is a picture of the engine from the side to try to show how much the engine tilts toward the rear of the truck.

Second is the offending cross member.  By my best SWAG, the centerline of the driveshaft would hit the top edge of the bottom half of the cross member.

Third is a picture to try to show the relationship of the t-case and the cross member.

« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 09:37:02 PM by Dfarm01 »

Offline KensAuto

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2017, 09:36:19 PM »
I didn't realize the driveline went over the crossmember. What about taking out that mount? that would drop the bearing about an inch...not enough? (for 2 piece shaft/bearing).
If you truly want a one piece shaft, you can cut that xmember anyway you want, weld, chop, slice and dice. Just about all ideas will work fine.

...and technically, you don't want the engine level. It is meant to be at an angle....the intake manifold takes this into account. You want the carb mounting area to be somewhat level.

Offline Dfarm01

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2017, 09:49:24 PM »
It looks like the drive shaft would go straight through the middle of that cross member height wise.  I did some rough measuring and it almost looks like if I took the bracket for the carrier bearing off and flipped the rest of the bracket over (attach the long part to the top of the frame and the diagonal pieces to the bottom), I'd have enough room.  I'm not sure how much the drive shaft can move up at this point.  The suspension is all stock, with no real plans to lift it at all.

Offline OldKooT

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2017, 11:28:14 PM »
My internet is sketchy due to power outage and other fun ice storm related stuff...but ATM it's working so..

Dodge never got too inventive...so this is easy. You should be using the Donner trucks transmission cross member.

You used a 4x4 engine cross member I assume?

Assuming the above, the crew cab and club cab (same frame length but different frames) used a two piece Drive shaft which you should also use. Now instead of making this complicated I will snap some pictures of either a crew cab frame or a club cab frame and show you how it looks. I believe you do have to remove the divorced case's cross member but let me double check that. It's been a long few days and I may be wrong.

you can go 1 piece rear shaft..I don't advise it. It would require you to re-weld your rear axle spring mounts and honestly it's a bit too long of a reach. Which is why Dodge used a carrier bearing.

Hopefully tomorrow I can snag ya a few pictures and it will become crystal clear.



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Offline Dfarm01

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2017, 11:55:07 PM »
My donor truck was a standard cab, standard box.

I forgot to mention that I stuck a tape from t-case to pinion tonight and came up with 80"+/-. That doesn't seem too ridiculous. The reason for leaning towards a one piece shaft is that the t-case points straight at the axle, so to use a two piece shaft (which is what I originally planned on), I'd be modifying the cross member or the mount for the t case.  I kind of need to keep costs low right now, unless one way stands out as being clearly better than the other.  At this point flipping that cross member upside down and having a one piece shaft built seems like the path of least resistance. 

I did just have a thought, what if I flipped the cross member over and hung the carrier bearing from it?  That way, I could lower the carrier bearing easily to beat the correct angle.

I used the engine and transmission/t-case cross members from the donor truck.

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2017, 12:59:52 AM »
Oldkoot is Norm, he's the resident Dodge expert. I'd say wait for his picture & response. Ignore the rest of us knuckleheads when it comes to Dodge issues. Last time someone ignored his advice on a Dodge well anyhow the truck still isn't finished and I think that build has been going on for a decade at least now. Ahem, cough Sq cough cough D.....

 :popcorn:
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Offline OldKooT

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2017, 06:46:14 AM »
The power is back on.....

I forget the exact formula for drive shaft length...its angles vs max torque vs blah blah. Bottom line is 54 inches is the max for a steel tube 1350 series shaft if I remember correctly. You could step up to a 5" aluminum tube and 1410 stuff...but you'd be at the max for length and that would not be the cheapest route.

Back to the issue...I will get you some pictures before the supper hour. Any club cab Dodge 4x4 will have a rear shaft you can almost bolt in. (if you found a 4spd club cab shaft it's a exact bolt in) So if we get you set up with the correct OEM stuff, that's going to be the cheapest option by far.

I have at my disposal a 85 crew cab frame, a 92 club cab frame..and a 74 ish crew cab frame...all 4x4's



Norm

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Offline Dfarm01

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2017, 10:04:28 AM »
I appreciate all the help. 

I will wait for the pictures before I worry about the carrier bearing cross member any more. Lol

I think some of my problems come from using running gear from a newer truck.  If I'm not mistaken,(it happens more than I'd like. Lol) the 70's trucks used a divorced transfer case and the one out of the 86 is not.

Offline OldKooT

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2017, 02:08:54 PM »
My apologies for less than great pictures...when the ice melts some I will see if I can clarify more.

This is a crew cab frame... the cross member your looking at is where the carrier bearing mounts. The frame is against a wall on it's side...but your looking at the bottom side of the frame. In other words, the cross member spans the top of the frame rails.


This is a shot of a carrier bearing in a 93 club cab 360/518/241 combo. I will get some better shots of this when i can lay under the truck and not get soaked while sliding down the hill Lol



I also have given time at least one or two drive lines complete I can get a picture of so you see what your working with.


Norm

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Offline Dfarm01

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2017, 03:45:46 PM »
There's the difference.  The cross member in my truck is set up to have the carrier bearing/drive shaft on top of it.  It  looks like my idea for flipping  my cross member over should work.

Offline OldKooT

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2017, 04:32:31 PM »
Hang tight a minute....Ya know, something isn't right here. I just got to thinking I did a 4x4 conversion on a Crew many years back...it was a 1978 so same early frame.

All I did was bolt the carrier bearing flat to the top side of the cross member and it aligned just fine with the transfer case. I can't see why yours wouldn't do the same. Thinking about it, the crew frame is what 7" wide which would make sense...that carrier bearing is going to end up centering in the same place regardless of top or bottom mounting.

Maybe get some pictures?

Norm

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Offline Dfarm01

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2017, 07:15:31 PM »
You can get an idea of the situation from the first picture I posted in post #11.  That's the cross member that the carrier bearing bolted to.  The carrier bearing was also round instead of square like the one you posted.

Offline OldKooT

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2017, 05:56:17 PM »
I snagged some better pictures...it occurred to me the truck runs, so I moved it out of the thawing ice LoL

The square carrier bearing is a more modern deal...they were round up to the mid to late 90's.... but the pictures show the mounting, and the driveshaft angle...least give you an idea of what your looking to do.








If you find you need to redo most the driveline anyway and you have some pik and pull yards in your area...some Ford F350's in the mid 90's had 1350 shafts that you may find a cheap option to resize for your Dodge...I have done this a few times.
Norm

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Offline Dfarm01

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2017, 08:46:48 PM »
Those last pics are awesome. Thanks a bunch.  It looks like that would fix my problem perfectly.  I think I'll look in my area for a club cab 4x4 in a wrecking yard and at least snag the drive shaft from it.  Most yards around here don't want you cutting on the frame, so I may not be able to take the cross member.  I still think my idea of flipping my cross member over will work just as well though, if i can't find one.

Thanks again for the help!  I guess now I'll have to try to update here more frequently so I don't leave you guys hanging  lol

I want to be done with all of this stuff and get on to getting the interior together and getting the old dog back to work.   

Offline Dfarm01

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2017, 08:47:42 PM »
I started cutting out the rivets for the cross member today.  I need to lift the cab up to get at the top rivets and I didn't have time today.

I still need to start shopping junk yards for a drive shaft as well.

Offline Flyin6

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2017, 05:33:44 PM »
I started cutting out the rivets for the cross member today.  I need to lift the cab up to get at the top rivets and I didn't have time today.

I still need to start shopping junk yards for a drive shaft as well.
Word of caution here. Before loosening the cab bolts, I think I'd spray some penetrating oil in there. If you strip the bolt then you have a real project. The nut is captured and a real bear to deal with.

On SquareD, that happened to me. I ended up having to weld the nut in there, so It would hold still, so I could re-tap it. The other three came loose just fine and made working on the area a breeze.
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Offline Dfarm01

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2017, 08:29:47 PM »
Thanks for that!  Little tips like that can save a lot of headache.

Offline Dfarm01

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2017, 03:41:33 PM »
I'm finally able to work on the truck again. I got the body un bolted and lifted out of the way without any issues. I did soak the body mount bolts down with wd40 first though. I have new poly body mounts to put in, since the old ones were only about an inch tall, and looked like a shriveled up hamburger patty.

I cut the carrier bearing cross member out and started taking measurements for having my 2wd two piece drive shaft shortened. It looks like the front section will end up at 21". 

I haven't had luck finding a drive shaft for a club cab 4speed 4x4 locally. There's one yard left that I haven't checked that normally has a good selection of old parts, so if that doesn't shake out, it looks like modifying the one I have will be the way to go.  The drive shaft shop wants about 7-800 bucks to build a one piece shaft for it. It'll probably be less than half of that to modify the one I have.

I hope I'm over the hump at this point.  I want my truck back. Lol

Online JR

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2017, 03:59:36 PM »
Good luck since you are on it again. I know about getting sidetracked!

Got any pics?
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Offline Dfarm01

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2017, 04:13:40 PM »
No photos of the truck yet, as it's buried under it's own parts and kids stuff. Lol

Part of the reason I'm so motivated to get it done at this point is so I can pull it out and get my garage cleaned up. Lol

I did locate a drive shaft through a local wrecking yard, but it's in Oregon, and the parts look up system didn't have a photo of it.  It's only $150, but the system didn't ask about if the truck was a manual or automatic and I'm not sure if they're different. The only things it asked about were 2 or 4 wheel drive and how many bolts were on the rear axle cover (10 or 12, mine has 10).  If I can return it, or not pay until I know it's right, this is probably the way I'll go.

Today I'm hoping to get my intake bolted on as well as the exhaust manifolds.  I'd like to run headers, but it seems that good ones are expensive and still hit the starter. Lol.

I took this week off work just to have time to work on the truck, but so far I haven't been able to get much done.

Offline Sammconn

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2017, 05:59:15 PM »

I took this week off work just to have time to work on the truck, but so far I haven't been able to get much done.
Funny how life gets in the way of a plan.

Part of me thinks if the new found shaft doesn't work, the new one piece is the way to go.
The peace of mind not having the carrier bearing, extra joints etc. may well be worth the cost of it. Just my $.02.
I just don't want to wind up missing a digit or limb.  I can sometimes get in a hurry to get results.
Sam

Offline Dfarm01

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2017, 09:55:11 PM »
The junk yard that showed the drive shaft in stock couldn't put their hands on it, so I'm back to modifying the two piece one that I have.  One of my friends is trying to talk me into shortening it myself, but I don't have a good way to insure a square cut.

The downside of the one piece shaft, aside from cost is that there's more of it to hang down and get ran into stuff.  The cost is the biggest factor right now though.

Offline Sammconn

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2017, 11:04:47 PM »
I shortened one for my old firebird years ago.
I think I scribed a line and then used a hacksaw.
Stuck it back in the tube and welded it up.
Kept the yoke indexed true, and it stayed balanced I have to assume, it spun very fast many times after.
It's not really that hard to do, just be slow and careful to stay true.
And then there is no cost.

Also get the low hang on the one piece, if that is a concern then two piece is definitely the way to stay.
I just don't want to wind up missing a digit or limb.  I can sometimes get in a hurry to get results.
Sam

Offline Dfarm01

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2017, 01:27:30 AM »
Well, it's done. the drive shaft is shorter. I did a good job making the cuts straight, then reminded myself how bad I am at welding. Lol.

I will probably use the drive shaft as is for moving the truck around, then take it in and have the drive shaft shop fix it before I really start using the truck.

I wanted to give this a try, just for the experience.  I think I need to find a place to actually learn how to weld from someone, as all I've done at this point is read a book, and talk to a couple of friends. A little practice would probably help too, as I don't think I've used my welder for over a year.

I got the intake and exhaust manifolds installed, the front drive shaft installed, and now the rear drive shaft is ready to go in.

I messed up when I pulled the rear drive shaft apart, and didn't mark or pay attention to how the yokes on the front and rear sections were liked up.  Does anyone know how they are supposed to be?  I imagine you'd want them lined up.

I think I have most of the big stuff taken care of, now I just have to get it running.

Online JR

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2017, 04:30:56 PM »
pictures!!!
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Offline Dfarm01

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2017, 08:46:24 PM »
Of the drive shaft?  I'm not posting a current pic of the truck. I'm ashamed of my garage. Lol

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2017, 08:50:28 PM »
Of the drive shaft?  I'm not posting a current pic of the truck. I'm ashamed of my garage. Lol

Ha, you should see mine!!
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Offline Dfarm01

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2017, 12:36:17 AM »
I got the starter installed today.  I found that I'm missing the piece of tin that plugs the hole between the bell housing and the sheet metal piece that bolts on the bottom of the bell housing. The one for the 727 is much different than what I need. It doesn't look too complicated to build one, so that's probably what I'll do.

 I also started mounting the cross member for the carrier bearing.  I also realized that I probably cut my front drive shaft about 3/4" too short.  I drew a line on the slip splines with the shafts pushed all the way together, then bolted the drive shaft up and at ride height drew another line on the splinters, then pulled it apart and measured. What's what.  There was 3.5" of splines in the yoke fully compressed, and 1.5" at ride height. I think I'm going to build the plate to mount my carrier bearing with slots, or enough room for a second set of holes so I can run the drive shaft I have now, and be able to fix the front drive shaft later, if it causes a problem. I'd hate to go out and cut a load of wood, only to have the drive shaft fall off when it's time to go home. Lol

I'm not getting a ton of stuff done, but I'm trying to complete something every time I get to work on it.  Like eating an elephant (or a crap sandwich) one bite at a time.

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Re: a little help on my 4x4/manual trans swap
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2017, 12:42:45 AM »
Getting more done than I am on Spartan!
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