REAL MAN TRUCKWORKS & SURVIVAL

WEAPONS => Gun Control => Topic started by: stlaser on February 20, 2018, 05:03:55 PM

Title: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on February 20, 2018, 05:03:55 PM
Well, last time I checked the ATF already covered that these weren’t illegal (not on one occasion but two separate times I believe). So if you want to ban something then maybe you should try and write a law to do so. Thank you NRA & for the record Trump ain’t king.......

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-02-20/trump-tells-sessions-ban-bump-stocks
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: KensAuto on February 20, 2018, 08:19:06 PM
I think that the only thing they should ban is leftists owning guns. :)
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on February 20, 2018, 08:38:34 PM
Until they can figure out how to write a piece of legislation to protect our schools I ain’t for giving them anything. End of discussion
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: Bob Smith on February 20, 2018, 09:21:10 PM
So Shawn, where exactly do you stand on this? You can not have it both ways. I think the bump stock being legal is going in the wrong direction to be considered worth fighting for. I don't want my 2nd rights to go away, but still have to look at real problems. I won't be handing over my mags or rifles, but do think there is middle ground we can work with. If I can not buy an auto rifle without paying a premium , why should I be able to buy a bump stock and end up damn close to the same result.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: Bob Smith on February 20, 2018, 09:23:48 PM
There is already a law that forbids bringing a gun onto school property, how is that working now?
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on February 20, 2018, 10:42:37 PM
Bob, let me be clearer. When I say write a piece of legislation to protect our schools I’m not asking for more of that gun free zone crap. They can figure out how to guard court houses and stadiums and anything else that they actually want to protect. So there’s that.....

As far as bump stocks they are a joke honestly, a novelty. The one crime they were supposedly used in we have no evidence to back up that theory. How long ago was that now? Oh wait, FBI is handling that too. I’m sure the Russians election narrative investigation took precedence...... insert eye roll

So for me to give these retards an inch more to make them feel warmer and fuzzier until the next time a liberal democratic nut job on a psychotropic drug decides to terrorize another soft target is utter nonsense.

Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: cudakidd53 on February 20, 2018, 10:44:11 PM
As I said to one of my classes today, this is a PEOPLE problem and NOT an object problem.  Airplanes, pressure cookers, vests full of explosives and ball bearings; without a person misusing them with evil intent, they cannot generally injure others.

Befriend the “strange” kid, I told them - if everyone in schools did that I think those on the fringes would become less prone to lash out.  More attention, more professional mental health services AND more active interventions that mandate treatment for those types of people across society is where the reaction to this problem needs to be focused.

God, Family, Morality, Consequences and Love of our Neighbors....these are once commonplace and the norm; today they are not.......as these decline, violence and tragedies have increased.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on February 20, 2018, 10:55:39 PM
Here’s an idea, prior to moving to CO we looked at moving to east Texas. One of the schools we drove by on our visit had a sign along the road much larger than this one in this article.

https://legalinsurrection.com/2018/02/texas-school-sign-staff-armed-and-trained-to-protect-students-with-deadly-force-if-necessary/amp/

So the fed guberment likes being in charge of education. Why can’t they mandate every public school has these signs posted and back it up with armed administrators and or teachers who have been trained? Not rocket science.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: TexasRedNeck on February 21, 2018, 07:00:50 AM
Gotta love Texas.  Laws won’t change anything. People breaking the law won’t suddenly start obeying. Only a good person with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun. The sooner we understand that the sooner we can get to the business of making a difference. 


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Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: Superwhdm on February 21, 2018, 07:52:05 AM
Gotta love Texas.  Laws won’t change anything. People breaking the law won’t suddenly start obeying. Only a good person with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun. The sooner we understand that the sooner we can get to the business of making a difference. 


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This^

What the left and Libs dont like to talk about is Chicago and LA and anyonther place that has strict gun laws.  They fail.  What wil gun control do here.  Definition of insanity-recreating the same cause expecting a different effect.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: KensAuto on February 21, 2018, 02:28:21 PM
You bring up Chicago and they imediately say "but, the guns come across state lines". Yeah, I'm pretty sure Indiana has fed background checks as well.
So, what they're really saying is "Chicago banned guns, so now the crooks have to steal them elsewhere."
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on February 21, 2018, 03:19:41 PM
You bring up Chicago and they imediately say "but, the guns come across state lines". Yeah, I'm pretty sure Indiana has fed background checks as well.
So, what they're really saying is "Chicago banned guns, so now the crooks have to steal them elsewhere."

Ken my local ffl was a large broker. Possibly largest in IN, he was also my neighbor (his store was a vault compromised of a the full basement of his 4K ft house even had concrete ceiling in it. Anyhow, the young atf guys from Chicago often called him to harass him. He didn’t take crap from them. Most of the crime was criminal on criminal. He would ask them how many criminals the atf agent had shot with his service pistol? As you can guess usually zero, ffl would then inform him I just did you a favor...... :popcorn:
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: KensAuto on February 21, 2018, 03:41:41 PM
I just got in a YouTube fight with some guy that called me all kinds of names because I told him it was Federal law for a gun dealer to run background checks, no matter what state. He kept arguing that Louisiana was different and you could buy long guns (ARs) there without background, because it was state law. Smh

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Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on February 21, 2018, 03:49:35 PM
I just got in a YouTube fight with some guy that called me all kinds of names because I told him it was Federal law for a gun dealer to run background checks, no matter what state. He kept arguing that Louisiana was different and you could buy long guns (ARs) there without background, because it was state law. Smh

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You know the rules we need pics or better yet a video
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: Flyin6 on February 21, 2018, 06:12:13 PM
All of this is a (lack of) God problem

Until America gets its morality back there is no way we will ever secure schools, protect kids or whatever
The evil that a man is capable of is beyond our imagination.

America has lost its way with respect to following God. A great deal of America does not believe he even exists. Another sizable chunk are people I call cowards. I call any man who will not stand up for what is right, a coward. Too many men, people who could be good men hold a belief in their hearts. But their rubber hearts are pumping jelly, not red blood. Behind their beliefs is little to no conviction. Yea some of them go to church once in awhile. I and my team have the responsibility of guarding them while they worship. Then afterward, they go their way and seek a path of no resistance where they would not have to confront evil. Would they engage a mouthy punk on a bus saying God-Dam-it? No, they would sit quietly in their place hoping the guy would get off the bus so that peace would return.

But not all of us. Personally, a bus ride is a place of danger. Hit a bump and get jostled and I might accidentally give him a bracial stun while reaching to stabilize myself...poor punk!

Am I suggesting you actually do something like that??? Of course! Feels great, you should try it! I had the opportunity to pound a loud mouth punk into the ground in front of his friends some years ago...I felt great afterward.

OK, this thread is not about violence, or is it?? I'm saying you can't regulate evil. You have to stop evil. Evil will grow in the shadows like the rust in that cheap jeep of Shawn's. It will come out as a stage 4 cancer in someone we thought was healthy. You have to kill evil at its source. You have to take a stand, by the millions. Say things like, "I do not support gay marriage, or gay anything except for happiness. Push it back. Be prepared to make your point against those haters who will come out. But make your stand on God's word. It cuts deep my friends. Ever have someone call you out on a biblical basis? What defense did you have for that?...Exactly!

Fight or prepare to defend, that's about your choices.

Bump-fire stocks??? Why are we even talking about them? The problem here was with a broken law enforcement system failing to respond to valid reports of a wacko. The problem was with politically correct people unwilling to say, that kid is nuts and should be evaluated. The problem was with a broken system where that kid grew up with no fatherly guidance except for a social welfare version of it.

Broken families are the root of so many problems. Not guns. Lack of a good father is just disseminating inner city black communities. I know, I used to go down there weekly and try and feed them and talk to them about Jesus. Black females in crowded cities having too many children that we can plainly see are nothing more than farming a crop of welfare kids, that's a problem. Get those kids into a church and you just cured that problem, and turned it into a cure.

I'd say vilify the fathers of seven children from seven different mothers. Can I say it??? Can I say those dads are a worthless piece of crap? The Christian in me used to say love them. Now it cautions me to sow seeds then when they abandon the word, to pull all aid/help from them for they will trample on pearls like swine says the bible.

The problem is people not following God. Not a stock, a gun make, or length of the barrel, it's in the total abandonment of moral character of the people who can use them. And for that reason we of moral fiber need guns.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: KensAuto on February 21, 2018, 06:58:54 PM

You know the rules we need pics or better yet a video
Pics of what?
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on February 21, 2018, 07:02:46 PM

You know the rules we need pics or better yet a video
Pics of what?

The altercation or whatever took place between you & a u tuber.....
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on February 21, 2018, 07:05:19 PM
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-02-21/trump-strongly-considering-concealed-carry-schools
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: Nate on February 21, 2018, 07:34:49 PM
I just got in a YouTube fight with some guy that called me all kinds of names because I told him it was Federal law for a gun dealer to run background checks, no matter what state. He kept arguing that Louisiana was different and you could buy long guns (ARs) there without background, because it was state law. Smh

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So that would explain why the jack arse from sons of guns is now doing life in prison for child molestation of little girls to include his own daughter.........and yet he preached how he was a "MARINE" and how he was the greatest gun builder/seller/developer/restorer that there ever was.

Good on you for not driving down to that swamp and bitch slapping him. .....lol
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on February 21, 2018, 07:40:45 PM
I just got in a YouTube fight with some guy that called me all kinds of names because I told him it was Federal law for a gun dealer to run background checks, no matter what state. He kept arguing that Louisiana was different and you could buy long guns (ARs) there without background, because it was state law. Smh

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk



So that would explain why the jack arse from sons of guns is now doing life in prison for child molestation of little girls to include his own daughter.........and yet he preached how he was a "MARINE" and how he was the greatest gun builder/seller/developer/restorer that there ever was.

Good on you for not driving down to that swamp and bitch slapping him. .....lol


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: KensAuto on February 21, 2018, 09:21:33 PM
Shawn, just him going around in circles posting like 10 times to my 2 times, oh, and calling me a f*** face. He's even posted 2 more times since I last checked, telling me that Louisiana law supersedes fed, again.
I would link, but don't want to share my utube handle.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on February 21, 2018, 09:44:21 PM
Ken, I tend to agree with him.

State rights should supersede fed rights, however we both know that’s not correct in this case.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: KensAuto on February 21, 2018, 11:12:31 PM
Yeah state should override, but with guns, atf don't play those games.


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Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on February 21, 2018, 11:19:04 PM
Yeah state should override, but with guns, atf don't play those games.


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So what happens when the fed passes some 2nd amendment bill & say a dozen pro 2A states decide to become 2A sanctuary states? :tongue:
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: KensAuto on February 22, 2018, 08:59:41 AM
Google"Montana Firearms Freedom Act" to see how that works out. ;P

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Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on February 22, 2018, 09:56:37 AM
Google"Montana Firearms Freedom Act" to see how that works out. ;P

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Exactly!  :likebutton:
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: OldKooT on February 23, 2018, 12:02:24 PM
I own a LOT of guns. Probably more than most of you honestly. Not at all bragging, just for reference to what I am about to type.
Lets entertain a "reality" conversation.

FACT: We have a population in this country of mentally ill people walking around with weapons.
FACT: We sell mentally unwell people rifles such as an AR at Wal mart, bass pro similar places.
FACT: The idiots selling these weapons are in many cases also unstable.
FACT: We have gun manufactures making it easier and easier to acquire weapons of such nature.
FACT: The ATF back round check is a joke.
FACT: Most states you can buy a AR 15, some 30 round mags, and 1000 round of ammo from a non ATF approved "employee" of a box store at 18 years of age.
FACT: that same kid can't buy some cold meds at that same store.
FACT: high capacity shotguns also can be bought at these stores.
FACT: Gun manufactures are skirting ATF rules that are outdated and based on these technical loop holes are arming "idiots" across our nation... suppose that's an accident?
FACT: One of the most powerful lobbies in DC is supporting this based on the idiocy of peoples fears of being unarmed.
FACT: There are solutions of common sense to many of the above issues that do not in any way infringe on our rights.
FACT: nothing we do regarding guns will stop what happened at that school in Florida from happening again is a BS statement.  That logic is that of the activist minded.

Solutions.....

FACT: requiring all gun sales to be conducted between a FFL holder and a customer is not going to restrict your rights in any way. It just means you can't buy a weapon at Wal Mart anymore...Each and every transaction by law would be required to be done by an actual FFL holder... NOT an employee, unless said employee has a FFL.

All FFL holders need to pass a basic "Psyche" course that may help "slow" nutters acquiring weapons. Sure couldn't hurt.

To purchase a weapon you MUST face to face apply for a purchase permit from trained law enforcement. Nebraska has done this with handguns and it causes no issues. And likely does "catch" a few who should not own weapons.
"Most" gun shops in this state/pawn shops included will not even sell you a weapon of any sort unless you have that permit. Guess what....walmart could care less. They rely on that failed ATF back round check.

Would it be a problem to have all weapons with a magazine capacity of more than 3 require a unique purchase permit? I don't see why it would.

Lets make these permits expire every two years. We go to the DMV and renew our privilege to drive, why can't we do the same regarding buying weapons? We require you pass a eye test to drive a car, but not shoot a gun?

Lets require all private party transfers to be done through a FFL That way both parties have a purchase permit? Seems very simple, and causes zero actual problems. I have actually done this for years now...it's not a restriction, it's responsible.

Lets put a serial number on the AR's bolt carrier group. Sales/transfer require a FFL. Or if that bothers the ghost gunners then lets require that purchase permit to buy ammo/gun parts. That way they can own their home built weapons legally, but still have to be screened.

I can't see any violation of any "right" in the above ideas. I am sure they may "help" reduce such things as society is dealing with. I believe a ounce of common sense says gun owners and sec amendment supporters should themselves bring ideas to congress such as the above. That in itself would send a powerful message of "responsibility" to America. It says we see there are problems, we see solutions that fit within our constitution and we are advocating these changes.

The upside to this is in the process we could protect our rights. We could possibly achieve constitutional carry, we could get states to back off their Nazi restrictions (Cali) done correctly we could eliminate then gun free zones/cities... and thus we WOULD be most certainly be able to look our kids in the face and say....we did well.

The LAST thing the left expects is gun owners fighting for a safer America through common damn sense.

















Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: BobbyB on February 23, 2018, 12:07:53 PM
Lets put a serial number on the AR's bolt carrier group.

Why? So if some part of a BCG part breaks you'll need to get approved to buy a new $xx.xx part? Just making conversation here.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: OldKooT on February 23, 2018, 12:25:55 PM
Bobby that's a valid point..I recently just ruined one myself actually. I went to the gun shop and purchased another one. It would have taken me exactly 5 extra seconds to show my purchase permit or concealed carry (which works the same way in Nebraska) to buy the part.

I can purchase a weapon the same way, that concealed carry permit or my gun "purchase permit" which one or the other is required to buy a handgun here, allows me to buy a weapon such as say a handgun as fast as I can fill out the FFL form and hand em the $$$$. No ATF background check is required. In Neb if say your convicted of a felony you are required to surrender your permit at such time. The theory being then the ATF background check should "catch" the felony record and deny a sale.

I have personally seen that system fail as the ATF does not update daily (likely impossible at this time) so a felon gets his/her weapon. A better approach would be the pre screening of requiring a purchase permit for any sale, thus allowing a actually simpler more stream lined, and likely better system.

They system we have in Neb is not perfect....it could be improved easily. The reason I suspect it hasn't been is largely the box stores don't use it anyway so.... it's not going to matter how well they screen the law abiding people, They  are not the issue anyway.






Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: Bob Smith on February 23, 2018, 12:34:48 PM

"Lets require all private party transfers to be done through a FFL That way both parties have a purchase permit? Seems very simple, and causes zero actual problems. I have actually done this for years now...it's not a restriction, it's responsible"


Norm, Wash. State has a law very similar now that requires all transfers to go through a FFL. Sounds good except I need to now pay a FFL fee, pay sales tax, make a trip to the FFL, to pass a gun onto a friend or child. The other problem with that is the new law is not being enforced.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: BobbyB on February 23, 2018, 12:38:01 PM
Bobby that's a valid point..I recently just ruined one myself actually. I went to the gun shop and purchased another one. It would have taken me exactly 5 extra seconds to show my purchase permit or concealed carry (which works the same way in Nebraska) to buy the part.

I can purchase a weapon the same way, that concealed carry permit or my gun "purchase permit" which one or the other is required to buy a handgun here, allows me to buy a weapon such as say a handgun as fast as I can fill out the FFL form and hand em the $$$$. No ATF background check is required. In Neb if say your convicted of a felony you are required to surrender your permit at such time. The theory being then the ATF background check should "catch" the felony record and deny a sale.

I have personally seen that system fail as the ATF does not update daily (likely impossible at this time) so a felon gets his/her weapon. A better approach would be the pre screening of requiring a purchase permit for any sale, thus allowing a actually simpler more stream lined, and likely better system.

They system we have in Neb is not perfect....it could be improved easily. The reason I suspect it hasn't been is largely the box stores don't use it anyway so.... it's not going to matter how well they screen the law abiding people, They  are not the issue anyway.

So take it a bit further and look at it like this. Most states don't recognize other states concealed carry permits, so in this situation certain states might/won't recognize your Nebraska permit to buy parts; unless its a national initiative. You go visit a friend or whatnot and bring your rifle, you break a BCG part and have to buy one as you can't find the spare part in your gear box; however it's not possible as you don't have a permit that's recognized by that state . You borrow one from someone or they give you one, then in effect you and the other person just broke a law, by not utilizing an approved FFL to facilitate the transfer of a serial numbered permit controlled item, which would make you both felons.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on February 23, 2018, 12:40:15 PM
Norm, although I may agree with some of the finer points of your argument I have to disagree in whole. The fail in your logic is you want one side to come to the table using common sense and offer up a piece or part that the other unlogical side can then potentially use to further restrict us down the road. This reminds me of the assault weapon ban of the 90’s that did nothing to actually prevent anything.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: OldKooT on February 23, 2018, 12:41:24 PM
Bob.... that "tax" is your state being greedy. There is ZERO reason why we can't have diff levels of FFL transfers.

Say as an example passing a gun to a child. Show ID "proof" of said relation and pay a set fee.. $10 maybe to cover said paper work and as long as that child has a purchase permit it's done in 5 minutes at little cost to anyone. I'd happily pay $10 to pass along weapons....why does it have to even be per gun?
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on February 23, 2018, 12:47:32 PM
On another note if the side lacking common sense wants to actually call an ace an ace and a spade a spade we might be able to have dialogue.

Thinking addressing psychoactive drug issue ie: manufacturers of them & opening several dozen insane asylums.......

However, since the first statement will not happen I think it’s a moot point.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: OldKooT on February 23, 2018, 01:13:20 PM
Are you suggesting that the "smart" people who possess common sense can't out think the ones you fear?

Fearing an attack on your rights is hardly how you defend them. An attack raise the call to arms..the requirement to fight, the battle won by those that fight smart, not in fear.

MOST attacks levied against our right to bare arms fall directly inline with the complete lack of common sense regarding that exact topic.

Felons. mentally ill, they don't HAVE the right to own/or be in the company of weapons now by law. We just need to enforce laws we have that are NOT being enforced. And guess what....the NRA is the force behind them NOT being enforced. That makes them the enemy of YOUR right to bare arms. Do you believe the stock holders, company officials and such of these gun manufactures are defending your rights? They are not.... they are eroding them to sell more product. Possibly to even cause the loss of the "right" or more restrictions thus allowing them to charge even more of a premium.

Study Mr Browning, one of the true enemies of the Sec Amendment and thus the people.
Ask yourself if you have any real way to know who got wealthy off the most recent surge in sales due to that school shooting? The stockholders did.... America lost our wealth in those children's future.

We need to develop FIRM regulations that are enforced on what constitutes mental illness. Who makes the call, oversight, and then enforcement. We need FIRM rules regarding how a felon who has paid their dues and is now possibly wanting his rights returned goes about this.

The rules/laws should be at a federal level, across all 50 states. They should protect all law abiding citizens today and into the future. They require state level and local level oversight. That oversight should not be exploitable by any one agency. They need to be so straight forward clear cut and absolutely in stone that it could be set as a Amendment it's self. Thus assuring the future of our children to bare these same arms and protect our nations future as our forefathers designed it to.

The opportunity is NOW... the "left" as they are seen are rallying for a change. They could care less about our children, our country and our future. And THAT is the weakness we need to exploit. It;s time gun owners face the truth....

we spend too much time preaching and whining about or rights and zero time seeing we already have them. Lets make them work thus protecting them.

Gun owners who see their "right" to own weapons as the battle are short sighted. How about your children's right to that exact same thing? If we don't protect through simple common sense now.... it won't be here for them.

Think about this recent shooting.  What if the media was reporting the man had a gun buyers permit, went nuts and shot up a school. We as society did all we could strictly enforcing our laws based on simple common sense. The left could then ONLY argue it's simply obvious a mentally ill person shot up a school. They may try and argue gun control...would it get any traction?  Any buffoon with half a brain knows this country has more weapons in personal possession than Canada has maple trees. Gun control is about just that.....not giving them the ammunition to wage a discussion....

reality....he bought the gun at a box store from some NON professional. He was known to be unstable but family and friends did nothing of any real use. The FBI/ATF dropped the ball, the locals dropped the ball the school dropped the ball... and so did you and I.

PART of that discussion is why we have people on the level of fast food employees selling weapons. The left asks that question.... its a good point. The fact is he was unstable... why was he able to get that weapon... again the left makes that point...I agree. See the entire conversation because their agenda is to
ban weapons" the conversation on the gun owners part...Yr not getting my weapons"  Two fools meet. We can stop things such as this if we on the side of our ec amendment actually saw what the battle is..... its about US being responsible and fixing this mess.




















Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: Atkinsmatt on February 23, 2018, 02:17:50 PM
I am not willing to ask permission to exercise a right.  That is what a permit is.  We have them now as you stated folks before us let the situation erode/ gave an inch which could be stretched into a mile slowly if allowed.

We can and should be responsible. 

It was stated last night during a debate that we should do something.  We should. 

It was admitted that changing the age of purchase wouldn't make a difference by a anti-gun person.  Don't just waste time and effort doing something.  Be effective. 

The Supreme Court said years ago that the government nor the police have any obligation to protect us.  While I strongly disagree with the on-site officer who took no action, he made the call to protect himself instead of those he was sworn to protect and we have the result.  I suspect that he is not the only individual that would have made that call that is in a similar positon.

It is a very trick situation with more issues than access to guns.  What about mental health?  Do we want all veterans locked up because that saw horrific things on the battlefield?  That could happen if those in power wanted it to if we make the laws too easy to just put away people we say have mental health issues.  What about the kid who is different or a loner or the elderly?  What about those who disagree with us?  It could happen if we allow it to be simple to declare someone has a mental problem.

I agree that there are those who profit during these times or other manufactured scares.  That is not right.

It would go a long way toward helping to enforce laws that we have.  Let's be effective in the actions we take.  There were several failures along the way.  Let's work to ensure that that doesn't happen again.  I wouldn't have a problem with the employees that sell guns being required to have training instead of just coming to work.  That is reasonable and could be effective.  Making me get in line to get a permit is not effective.  It fuels the fight.

Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: Bob Smith on February 23, 2018, 02:59:15 PM
 :likebutton:
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: Flyin6 on February 23, 2018, 03:38:28 PM
It is not the gate which prevents entry, but the gate keeper.

On the mental health subject, the actual mental health of an individual is a pretty big gray area.

I have to look no further than my case with the VA, and following my returning from Afghanistan following a very long deployment there.

For reasons only doctors can explain all that stress caused my perfectly healthy heart to succumb to a kind of Atrial Fibrillation. It was awful. I couldn't fly, or really do anything. It was like walking around having a heart attack...no fun.

SO the Army sends me home on a medevac flight to seek treatment in the states. The doctor treating me takes note of the recent combat experience and tells me that stress is the trigger for the heart to start beating all crazy. So, he sends me to a psychiatrist. That guy confirms I have combat stress and he lumps it into a diagnosis of ptsd.

It took a bit, but I got past that and life went on. they medicated the electrical heart process, and today I live normally.

The VA picks up on the VA, awarding me 30% disability even though I was given 0% disability for two broken backs, 0% for one ear which was clinically deaf 0% for a knee that had walked and ran thousands of miles with boots and heavy rucks or in mandated exercise.

So they made this PTSD thing stick. I argued that I do not have any such thing, but with the connective processes between mental illness/PTSD/denying gun ownership, I see myself and millions of other combat veterans set up to have our guns removed for our own safety

B.S. is my response to that.

So you see, it is not the mental health gun ownership issue that bothers me. Once that law is enacted, then some clerk will actually make the case by case decision. Some clerk will decide our rights. It happens now in all departments of the government. Some tree huger son of a Berkeley law professor gets a job at the local gun permit office and just like that, military guys, trump supporters, conservatives, Christians, or anyone identified as "One of those people" by our liberal clerk is denied their rights.

Not the law, but the person adjudicating that law.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: Flyin6 on February 23, 2018, 03:42:02 PM
Another problem

Loss of military readiness.

If a civilian cannot own a long gun until 21, then I assume soldiers younger than 21 should also be restricted. The argument is made on the basis of an individual reaching some minimum level of maturity.

Lots and lots of soldiers are 17-20 years of age. Losing all of them will cost us greatly as we work to replace all the lost warriors.

On a side note, I never realized those kids in the back of my Chinook should not have had weapons! Hell, they even had bullets!
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: cruizng on February 23, 2018, 04:39:01 PM
Norm, I always like hearing your points of view. Makes me think.

Couples of my 2cts I would throw in. You refer to the smartest coming up with solutions. Not sure if you watched the CNN "Town Hall" debacle it is painfully obvious that the anti crowd wants to work on any reforms. They want nothing short of confiscation. They see no reason why anyone should have guns. That isn't just the far left fringe it is most all of the left if they had their way. Obviously they have lots of obstacles but that doesn't stop their effort.

They will be successful in a 100 years or so because they are grooming and raising millions of kids that have no interest in life, liberty, or happiness and especially true respect and dedication to the constitution and bill of rights.

That is why they jump so hard anytime a tragedy occurs and the ONLY focus is on the gun. GUN = BAD. over and over ad nauseum. 
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: OldKooT on February 23, 2018, 05:35:52 PM
I did not watch the CNN thing. I long ago decided the news was nothing but manipulation of society by both sides to chase their agendas. That said.....

if the majority wanted guns gone.... explain the sales LoL






















Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on February 23, 2018, 05:54:25 PM
You probably bought more than we realized.... :tongue:
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: cruizng on February 23, 2018, 06:48:25 PM
I did not watch the CNN thing. I long ago decided the news was nothing but manipulation of society by both sides to chase their agendas. That said.....

if the majority wanted guns gone.... explain the sales LoL
Yeah. I doubt the lefties are the ones pumping up the gun sales.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: KensAuto on February 23, 2018, 10:56:05 PM
Decided to delete my comment after considering the fact that a very close family member of mine is a psychologist. : Embarrassed
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: wilsonphil on February 24, 2018, 09:48:18 PM
I own a LOT of guns. Probably more than most of you honestly. Not at all bragging, just for reference to what I am about to type.
Lets entertain a "reality" conversation.

FACT: We have a population in this country of mentally ill people walking around with weapons.
FACT: We sell mentally unwell people rifles such as an AR at Wal mart, bass pro similar places.
FACT: The idiots selling these weapons are in many cases also unstable.
FACT: We have gun manufactures making it easier and easier to acquire weapons of such nature.
FACT: The ATF back round check is a joke.
FACT: Most states you can buy a AR 15, some 30 round mags, and 1000 round of ammo from a non ATF approved "employee" of a box store at 18 years of age.
FACT: that same kid can't buy some cold meds at that same store.
FACT: high capacity shotguns also can be bought at these stores.
FACT: Gun manufactures are skirting ATF rules that are outdated and based on these technical loop holes are arming "idiots" across our nation... suppose that's an accident?
FACT: One of the most powerful lobbies in DC is supporting this based on the idiocy of peoples fears of being unarmed.
FACT: There are solutions of common sense to many of the above issues that do not in any way infringe on our rights.
FACT: nothing we do regarding guns will stop what happened at that school in Florida from happening again is a BS statement.  That logic is that of the activist minded.

Solutions.....

FACT: requiring all gun sales to be conducted between a FFL holder and a customer is not going to restrict your rights in any way. It just means you can't buy a weapon at Wal Mart anymore...Each and every transaction by law would be required to be done by an actual FFL holder... NOT an employee, unless said employee has a FFL.

All FFL holders need to pass a basic "Psyche" course that may help "slow" nutters acquiring weapons. Sure couldn't hurt.

To purchase a weapon you MUST face to face apply for a purchase permit from trained law enforcement. Nebraska has done this with handguns and it causes no issues. And likely does "catch" a few who should not own weapons.
"Most" gun shops in this state/pawn shops included will not even sell you a weapon of any sort unless you have that permit. Guess what....walmart could care less. They rely on that failed ATF back round check.

Would it be a problem to have all weapons with a magazine capacity of more than 3 require a unique purchase permit? I don't see why it would.

Lets make these permits expire every two years. We go to the DMV and renew our privilege to drive, why can't we do the same regarding buying weapons? We require you pass a eye test to drive a car, but not shoot a gun?

Lets require all private party transfers to be done through a FFL That way both parties have a purchase permit? Seems very simple, and causes zero actual problems. I have actually done this for years now...it's not a restriction, it's responsible.

Lets put a serial number on the AR's bolt carrier group. Sales/transfer require a FFL. Or if that bothers the ghost gunners then lets require that purchase permit to buy ammo/gun parts. That way they can own their home built weapons legally, but still have to be screened.

I can't see any violation of any "right" in the above ideas. I am sure they may "help" reduce such things as society is dealing with. I believe a ounce of common sense says gun owners and sec amendment supporters should themselves bring ideas to congress such as the above. That in itself would send a powerful message of "responsibility" to America. It says we see there are problems, we see solutions that fit within our constitution and we are advocating these changes.

The upside to this is in the process we could protect our rights. We could possibly achieve constitutional carry, we could get states to back off their Nazi restrictions (Cali) done correctly we could eliminate then gun free zones/cities... and thus we WOULD be most certainly be able to look our kids in the face and say....we did well.

The LAST thing the left expects is gun owners fighting for a safer America through common damn sense.

Norm, the problem is every one of the things you say can be turned into permission that is 100% controlled.

Fact 1.   We have lots of Mentally Ill people doing lots of things, Driving, Buying booze, injuring themself’s or other people.  Some are drugged to stay in check, some need to be drugged but decide not to take medication.  I would love to see the drugs that are currently prescribed to our current government leaders, local and federal level.

Fact2.  I don’t understand why you are saying WalMart and Bass Pro are a bad thing, they are FFL dealers so as long as they have the buyer fill out the paperwork what is the issue.

Fact 3.  That may be true, but that’s the case at most places you buy things.

Fact 4.  Such a Nature??  If they are so deadly then why do we allow local LE , FBI, CIA, NASA, FDA, IRS, BLM and so on and so on have the same level of weaponry.  A flintlock rifle or pressure cooker filled full of fireworks powder will kill you also.  I can buy a semi load of fireworks when your 18 in this country (more on this later)
 
Fact 5.  What should this check be?

Fact 6.  So what is the issue with this?  I can go to the local liquor store and buy enough booze to kill my self if I wanted too, also I could buy a truck load of liquor and take it to a high school hangout and lets see what happens. You might just end up with just as many deaths/injurys as the nut job did in Florida.

Fact 7.  True but a 14year old girl can get an abortion with out telling her parents and the school doesn't report it to LE even if it was/is a rape, also you can get the morning after pill if requested in the schools without parents’ permission.
 
Fact 8.  Other than double barrels most pumps or automatic shotguns will take 6 rounds, again they are all FFL dealers they all follow the same rules.

Fact 9.  The more heavy handed a government becomes(fuels the want) the more demand there will be of weapons of the same nature. Like it or not why did the feds retreat during the Bundy mess in Nevada, they were out gunned or matched in weaponry, many examples of this.

Fact 10.   I'm assuming you mean the NRA, how many members are in the NRA? This is not a George Soros funded lobby group, its Millions(5million last count) of Americans and gun manufactures also.  Its not fear in most cases its preemptive measures to stop the unchangeable.

Fact 11. Permission/permits/requirements  can be changed overnight with no public input, then it could infringe on rights.

Fact 12.  Hindsight is always 20/20, this Crazy Kid had 10or12 “assault weapons” where did a kid get money to buy that, he had a trust fund with 800K in it, so we should limit how much money children under 21 can spend or have??  That would of prevented all of this people under 21 cant have money either.

Fact 13.  I disagree, WHY, I have bought one gun and have gone thru the check, why should I have to do it over and over again for every gun, do I have to retake a driver’s test every time I buy a new car?  The Wal mart/box store doesn’t hold water they are a Valid FFL holder you cant change that.

Requiring a “Psyche” test can be abused, who is going to administer the test? the ATF???? Wernt these the guys that sold guns they knew were going to Mexico and you want the ATF to CONTROL things?????

 Again why?  Then why not for everything that can kill/hurt someone?  Do we have to go to the DMV right when I buy a car with the seller to transfer the title?

Great but lets do that with Car ownership also, if you have a car with over 75hp you need a different class of License, over 100, another type and so on, just like trucks/semis. So I could only buy a Double Barrel or single shot, then I would need to apply so for 99.5% of the firearms out there we would need a permit.  Right now just like the nut job in Florida if you have the money you could buy the most powerful car in the world but not have any skill to drive it.  even if I don't have the "special permit" if I go to a Peterbuilt dealer and have the  money do you think they will NOT sell me a Tractor because I don't have a CDL??????????

Second amendment is not a privilege.  So To post something on the internet should I have to go thru all the same thing you want to do for buying firearms?  And ALL of the cars/trucks/tractors you own or are on your property are titled with your states DMV?

So EVERYONE of the firearms you have/own even ones that were given to you or you inherited you took them down to the local FFL to get it transferred to your name?  Even the one your family members might have left at you house because they were moving or something, those firearms you took down to your FFL because you were in “control” of those.

Why should I have to tell the government what I own or build as long as I never use it unlawfully?  I have already been screened many many times thru my life for many many many jobs, and we already have numbers(SSN) assigned to us how far do you want to go?  Let’s just MicroChip the firearm owners, that way when you stopped by local/federal LE they know you a firearm owner. No chip no firearm.

The ATF is a JOKE in most cases, and what if the closest FFL dealer is 100-500 miles away?  And what if they do to FFL holders like some states do with Abortion clinics? 

I comes down to money, the crazy kid had the Money to buy the firearms!  Nobody that had the power stopped him before, or during the killings only AFTER the massacre something was done.

Also a PERFECT example of how all the points(facts) you make can be shown to turn into an outlawing is the 1934 NFA. As everyone knows before 1934 ANYONE could go and buy a fully automatic Firearm UNTIL the crazy gangsters started shooting each other up.  So here is where the controlling comes in in two forms, so then the Government said well we won’t outlaw automatic/SBR firearms we will just restrict them in the form of a $200 fee AND a CLEO letter. In 1934 $200 was a LOT of money(remember my money point) even just the gun alone was $200 if the local LE officer didn't like you no CELO so no firearm even if there was no legal for you not to own one because someone didn't think you needed it.  So fast forward to 1986, Norms Half brother Chuck Schumer sneaks some wording into to the Gun Owners act to ban of all future machinegun’s for private individuals, BUT it’s still OK for all those other NON military government groups to have them.  Why would you ban something that had NEVER been used in crime!!  In 1986, NEVER had a legally owned NFA firearm been used in the commission of a crime or killed anyone!  NEVER!!!!!!!  Just because Chucky didn’t think you should have them they were outlawed!!!!!!

Also Norm what do we do about the 90,000 people that are killed every year in alcohol related accidents, this number does not include the number of people crippled, jobs lost, money lost, medical costs, children, wife’s abused, raped, is off the charts!  How much loss has Booze caused the military, but we can buy booze at almost any street corner in every state in every city, truckstop, quickie mart all staffed by Norms “idiots”  I bet we lose as many children every day in booze related problem as the nut job in Florida did!
   
I can go on and on why most powerful lefties doesn't  want the local population to have firearms but that is a whole other conservation.

Now for all of you say I’m picking a fight with Norm I’m not, I pointing out flaws in some of his “facts” and it open for discussion.

Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: TexasRedNeck on February 24, 2018, 10:28:15 PM
Norm, first I would say that Chicago is the perfect example that most of the more than 3700 deaths by handguns arent by people buyin them legally.

Second, there are thousands of people rejected for falsifying answers to their 4473 but yet never prosecuted.

Third, you have massive failures on the fed level to basic reporting of events that would have kept someone from passing a background check.  Church shooter that got discharged from the Air Force comes to mind.

Very few guns used in killings are obtained legally.  And I can mag change in less than 2 seconds so the limitations on hi cap mags is a joke.

I'm actually ok with moving the age for long gun purchases to 21 unless you are enlisted or a veteran with honorable discharge.

that idiot in FL had the cops show up at his house 23 times in 2 years.  think that should have been a flag?  two reports to the fed are not acted on?  At least one cop outside the school freezes?

It not the laws that are the issue....

Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: Bob Smith on February 24, 2018, 10:58:58 PM
 :likebutton: Clap Clap Clap..... :beercheers:
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on February 24, 2018, 11:15:51 PM
As for moving the age to 21, I disagree and KD sums it up well. Quite honestly I recommend going to his site and reading a few of his recent posts if you have time.

https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=233031
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on February 24, 2018, 11:17:57 PM
The other thing I’d like to state. Although I don’t always agree with him and currently he is getting a bit beat up on this thread I might add. Norm is a great sounding board and makes me think outside of my stubborn box at times.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: BobbyB on February 25, 2018, 08:47:42 AM
The other thing I’d like to state. Although I don’t always agree with him and currently he is getting a bit beat up on this thread I might add. Norm is a great sounding board and makes me think outside of my stubborn box at times.

I don't think he's getting beat up. I see a civil discussion between adults who are responding with opinions and in cases backing them up with facts and source material.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: Flyin6 on February 25, 2018, 04:38:41 PM
X2

Good discussion

CM
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: JR on February 26, 2018, 04:31:54 AM
After reading all of this I agree with some, but not all.

The laws on the books should be enforced, spirit of the, not just letter of the law (common sense)

No "permits" to buy/transfer a gun. I see nothing in the Constitution saying a right needs a permit? Permission to give my gun to my child?

Looks at gunrights as a big pie, it is always the same size. Everytime a new law is passed, the pie gets smaller, but we are not safer. Look how well these "laws" work in cities like NY and Chicago, even thought he pie is basically gone.

I bring up the vehicle argument all the time. I have used it for years and ask someone when was the last time you heard about a car ban after a drunk or old person ran over a bunch of people?
You can get a car that does 150mph easy, but why do you need it? Why do I need another gun, I like it, just like a car or BIG truck. Why do you need a mag that holds more than 10 rounds, less reloading, more fun.

Mental health is another issue. That needs to be addressed across state lines and included in backgrounds. When a person cannot function or is unpredictable, there firearm possession should be checked. But with a standard, not a simple box checked off by 1 person or 1 Dr.

Now tell me how the NRA is bad? True much (doners/business) is about money but they teach safety, support gun owners, take items to court for the little guy.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on February 26, 2018, 08:54:52 AM
NRA history lesson very brief overview:

CCP was their idea
NFA they helped draft the legislation

I’ll leave it at that but if you want to research it further there is more.

So I’ll choose to support GOA & other (what appear to be at present time) true pro gun groups. The idea we can give a blanket approval to any man or group doesn’t work, the good book tells us this no less. We need to hold them accountable for their actions.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: JR on February 26, 2018, 01:19:05 PM
Give me a link to the CCP, I come with walther pistols and schools.

NFA. Why would it be be bad to have them in the mix when the bill is drawn up? Sure just don't want congress to just be in charge there!

NRA is working with the Firearms coalition and CRPA out here trying to stop some of these stupid laws.

They may not do 100% of what everyone wants, but they are the biggest and why they are a target now. Remember, divide and conquer works both ways.

Educate myself and others,,,,,,,,,,,
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on February 26, 2018, 03:05:11 PM
In the 1920’s the NRA’s National Revolver Association (hand gun training arm at that time) proposed the conceal carry permit regulations that were later adopted by 9 states.

In the 1930’s the NRA helped Roosevelt draft the 1934 National Firearms Act along with the 1938 Gun Control Act which we’re the first two Federal Firearms laws.

Now for the record JR you asked how anyone could not like the NRA? Well, I don’t like these laws so I guess by default I don’t like the NRA. Do they do some good? Possibly, but it appears playing both sides is not out of question for them either.

Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: JR on February 26, 2018, 03:11:29 PM
I know what the NFA is. I believe some regulations are good, like full auto and grenade launchers.

I would like it to be universal though where states don't get to restrict more items. I would love to see suppressors legalized. I don't mind someone having to get a CCW, but it should be a shall issue unless there is cause not to.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on February 26, 2018, 03:26:11 PM
But NFA doesn’t stop you from having full auto, it just makes it super expensive. Not sure on grenade launchers, I guess I just assumed they wouldn’t allow my peasant hands to ever have them. Those are for the king and his men only..... :wink:
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: JR on February 26, 2018, 04:14:36 PM
I will take any help we can get. The pie cannot get smaller!!

Agreed on the FA, just was throwing things out. It does say you cannot convert, but have to buy old. That is why it costs so much.

Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: TexasRedNeck on February 26, 2018, 08:39:00 PM
this might not go as planned, but here it goes.  I'm all for gun rights, but practically we have to do something to prevent more of these massacres.

I believe we have to start with better reporting of disqualifying events;  prove to me you are efficient with the laws we already have before you earn the right to pass more.

e.g. the church shooter in Texas,  DO discharge from AF for domestic abuse, not reported, should have DQd him immediately. , countless people falsifying their 4473 and not prosecuted when rejected.  FBI and local LE not taking the reports seriously on this wack job in FL.  There should be a high bar but a bar none the less on removing mentally ill people from their weapons.

Then I believe that federal law should promote armed protection of our schools.  Bad guys gravitate to gun free zones. 

Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: KensAuto on February 26, 2018, 09:28:14 PM
Then I believe that federal law should promote armed protectors that won't hide behind a desk, at our schools.  Bad guys gravitate to gun free zones. 

fify
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: wilsonphil on February 26, 2018, 10:13:48 PM
this might not go as planned, but here it goes.  I'm all for gun rights, but practically we have to do something to prevent more of these massacres.

I believe we have to start with better reporting of disqualifying events;  prove to me you are efficient with the laws we already have before you earn the right to pass more.

e.g. the church shooter in Texas,  DO discharge from AF for domestic abuse, not reported, should have DQd him immediately. , countless people falsifying their 4473 and not prosecuted when rejected.  FBI and local LE not taking the reports seriously on this wack job in FL.  There should be a high bar but a bar none the less on removing mentally ill people from their weapons.

Then I believe that federal law should promote armed protection of our schools.  Bad guys gravitate to gun free zones.

Agreed as long as the there is a way to challenge the system if you are listed by mistake or by fraudulent means.  Its VERY easy to get on lists but very hard to get removed.

 
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: TexasRedNeck on February 26, 2018, 10:20:36 PM
Understood. I realize it’s a very slippery slope and we need to have speedy appeals as part of the process. The burden of proof should lie with the state and not with the individual.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: JR on February 26, 2018, 11:55:51 PM
Yep, lets arm those who wish to be in schools. Whats the problem with that? Sure many will volunteer.

I don't think it should be a high hurdle to purchase a firearm. Unless there is a reason you should not have one.

HIPPA is a huge issue here with regards to mental health, that I see is the common ground between most of these shootings.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: cruizng on February 27, 2018, 08:57:41 AM
this might not go as planned, but here it goes.  I'm all for gun rights, but practically we have to do something to prevent more of these massacres.

I believe we have to start with better reporting of disqualifying events;  prove to me you are efficient with the laws we already have before you earn the right to pass more.

e.g. the church shooter in Texas,  DO discharge from AF for domestic abuse, not reported, should have DQd him immediately. , countless people falsifying their 4473 and not prosecuted when rejected.  FBI and local LE not taking the reports seriously on this wack job in FL.  There should be a high bar but a bar none the less on removing mentally ill people from their weapons.

Then I believe that federal law should promote armed protection of our schools.  Bad guys gravitate to gun free zones.

Agreed as long as the there is a way to challenge the system if you are listed by mistake or by fraudulent means.  Its VERY easy to get on lists but very hard to get removed.

As they say possession is 9 10ths  of the law so when they have confiscated your firearms the normal civilian has almost zero power to COMPEL the authorities to give them back. They can drag their feet for years and what can you do? Sue and rack up $$$$$ in attorney bills. Even if it was fast process of decision that is no guarantee of fast return.

The law would have severe penalties against the law enforcement that has your guns. If they don't return within 5 days of judgement they would have to pay you $5K for everyday after that. But then you would actual;y need judges to enforce the payment. Will all of the liberal judges they could be too busy also.

Not a lot of TRUST is the enforcement community. There are many examples of people that have had their property taken and never given back. Hmmm....   
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: TexasRedNeck on February 27, 2018, 05:54:21 PM
The alternative may be because we are too afraid to discriminate against ineligible gun owners we wind up playing into the hands of those that would remove all rights to firearms ownership.

Rock and hard place for sure.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: OldKooT on March 06, 2018, 11:41:04 AM
Sorry haven't been online of late..

For the record: I don't feel "beat up on" I feel it's a discussion, If I thought everyone agreed with me,I'd have not bothered. Brass tacks as they are.... I will respond to a few things that were posted.

I fail to understand why anyone who is a gun enthusiasts thinks they aren't already "registered" Sure, maybe someone here has a weapon and has never once purchased one from a gun shop or similar retail business. It's possible... but those of you that have, are on file as a gun owner responsible for that weapon. So likely the majority of us....has this caused you a problem of any sort? Other than the NRA using such purchases to market their add campaign for you to join....and then you join? More registration...and the NRA does sell those lists for marketing.... lets be real here. Its LONG past time to worry about if someone knows you own a weapon.

Do you insure your weapons? I do... pretty sure that "list" is also available. Do you have a trust...a class 3?....because LoL at paranoia regarding them "coming for your guns" if you do.

It is a right to own your weapon... it's long ago been a right that's been trampled on. Ya ever hear anyone lobbying against the insurance companies, or the box store that records your credit card transaction when you buy a weapon or ammo? You see anyone lobbying against the NRA wanting your personal information to join? How about Amazon and their data base of gun parts purchasers...to go along with their data base of every other thing they send you?

Ever purchase a 80% lower? A jig? did you use that credit card? Maybe your Pay Pal.... common be realistic.

Bottom line....it's not even a valid argument that a "permit" to purchase a gun is really any kind of problem in regards to the basic concept. We need to scrap the entire system as it is today and take steps to putting it back they way it should have been from the beginning. Before they take the above mentioned lists and actually remove your rights in practical reality.

I myself would rather apply for a gun buying permit (I did 12 years ago) which assures me that right without question... than to alert the ATF to every single purchase with a new background check each time, Just wait tell they start denying background checks via computer because they cross referenced your wallgreeen script history and decided you can't have a weapon.... it's coming.

My argument is and always will be, gun owners who stand up, show responsibility and create the rules/laws/policies are the gun owners that promote the sec amendment. We can under our constitution create safe guards/checks and balances without restricting our rights in practiced reality for law abiding citizens. What we can not do is preach a ideal that is already long lost that we should be able to purchase said weapons with no knowledge of our government.

In addition our government isn't the threat anyway in my opinion. Those clowns can't agree on anything, execute anything, or even control their own selves in well documented history. And regardless of the problems we citizens often encounter regarding our "rights" with the government....they are largely not the issue.

The constitution does't apply to big business in case you haven't noticed. You might consider worrying about that very real issue.... because that's where your rights are eroding in day to day reality.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: JR on March 06, 2018, 01:08:51 PM
Well Norm, when you do post you NORMALLY hit the nail on the head.

Yep, they know who we all are, somehow. I remember going on calls and we could ref. what weapons are registered to the call

One off the good things is they will never get them all no mater how hard they try. Of course that would make many a citizen a criminal but whats new?
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: TexasRedNeck on March 06, 2018, 01:47:29 PM
Norm not disagreeing on factual premise but I won’t acquiesce to a permit for firearms purchase until voter ID is implemented, a Wall is built on our southern border, and 4473 violators are prosecuted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: JR on March 06, 2018, 05:56:35 PM
I agree Charles. Voter ID (which is law in 34 states) and the wall.

Getting them to follow the law is a big issue, 4473 is just the tip of it.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: OldKooT on March 06, 2018, 06:03:39 PM
TRN..... Your points are well understood. Especially the voter ID point.

I feel the states are the ones we really need to get on board with the voter ID issue especially. Here we have that and it works very simply. Register to vote, which requires proof of address, two forms of ID and you can vote. Neb doesn't give you a DL unless you can prove citizenship. They also don't allow voting unless you can prove the same.

The fed form 4473... I assume you mean violators as those that do not disclose or flat lie on their forms? They do enforce that but yes agreed, not near to the level they should. They should also shut down stores/dealers that do not have them properly filled out and still sold a weapon.

Our "hand gun purchase permit" is largely a form 4473 in effect. It asks the same basic questions, and the concept is rather simple. If your local Sheriff's office does not find a "issue" that a records search turns up, then your permit is issued in prompt order. So they check for a felony, domestic battery, and all such questions. If your denied a permit, you can apply for a review if you feel it's in error.

I feel what largely makes this work rather well is anyone who has such "convictions" just doesn't apply, unless dense. They also then do not buy a handgun. 

The gun dealer can be assured then to the best of his knowledge the individual who had said permit isn't hiding anything on his or her  4473. No ATF "call" to "check" is then required.

If you are convicted of a felony/battery etc while in possession of this permit, you are required to surrender it. The only way you can buy a handgun without said permit is if you have a current carry permit.

How this works in reality is this. I can buy a handgun every day and other than the form 4473 sitting in some file cabinet in the gun shop, the "government" doesn't have any knowledge of it at all.

I feel if we implemented the same concept for long guns with a capacity of over 5 rounds it would cause very little actual problem, the purchase would still be "unknown" except for said filed 4473, and we have now improved the system which may help. Just lying on a 4473 becomes much more unlikely.

In the case of the Florida School deal, it would have prevented the purchase of the weapon used by that individual. He may have gotten a weapon illegally...but that as you said earlier, is on the local PD and such regarding their clear lack of give a crap. That's not a weapons issue or a rights issue, that's law enforcement not doing their job issue.

Just my two cents worth....
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: JR on March 06, 2018, 06:17:06 PM
Not finding it now but many states require a copy of this form is sent to that states DOJ. I know they do it in Kali and a few others, but it is per state not a fed law.

But I would disagree on the feds not knowing as they know EVERYTIME a search is done on NCIS, by who and for who.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: TexasRedNeck on March 06, 2018, 06:56:37 PM
Thanks Norm.  Good discussion.  My general angst is we have numerous laws that are not enforced and before I agree to more laws we need to make sure the ones we have are being effectively administered.

Why has the story of the Air Force not reporting the domestic battery for the church shooter in Texas just faded away?  That would have DQd him had it been reported, as it should have.

Why the nut case in FL not taken into custody for terroristic threats when he said he wanted to be a professional school shooter?  So many signs were ignored.  And yeah with his mom's 800k inheritance I'm pretty sure he'd have gotten one black market.

Too many politicians equate passing laws with making a difference.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: OldKooT on March 06, 2018, 09:13:57 PM
I agree, enforcement should be considerably reviewed AND improved. It's time gun owners impact this issue to this exact point/end goal.

Jr... the NCIS checks are done by the FBI... any guess why they often fail to be of much use? The FBI was aware of this latest shooters desire to be a school shooter... but he passed THEIR background check. If the local Sheriff was the POC initially in purchasing that weapon..would it have been sold? Hard saying...but there is room for improvement.


 


Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: JR on March 06, 2018, 11:12:51 PM
All we need is to follow the laws we have as said.

From what I am hearing, the Florida school district was under a program called "promise". The head of the district is from Chicago and guess who he has ties with, BHO.

Basically it lets the school deal with almost everything in house leaving LE out of the picture unless it is a major issue. Theft up to $300, vandalism to $1000 and even battery. Teachers aren't told of the problems, kids are shuffled school to school as they get in trouble.

As for the NCIS system, like any data base, garbage in, garbage out. I know I used to have full access to the system, that all changed around the early 90's. You needed a reason to use it and it was tracked.

Anyhoo, we sure don't need more laws. Banning bumpstocks to ammo won't change a thing. Heck you can build an AR for under $500 now or buy one.

On another note, I want to see what Sessions says tomorrow about "sanctuary" states and cities. We just had a local mayor (oakland-female) who told the public about raids in the area. Says to the Fads, come and arrest me! Love to see her locked up or at least drug into a court to answer somehow.

Sounds like this sheriff is a real piece to. He is passing the buck and saying how great he is. Sounds like the deputies were ordered not to go in as the killing was going on.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: TexasRedNeck on March 07, 2018, 07:40:11 AM
All that said, I do think anything that allows a high cyclic rate needs to be regulated. Not necessarily banned but stamped like a FA weapon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: Bear9350 on March 07, 2018, 08:42:27 AM
This speech aligns pretty well with how I feel on the topic.  I don't necessarily have a problem with some of the proposed solutions.  The issue comes when the inevitably don't work.  Simply put, no matter what laws are enacted criminals will still be able to attain firearms and use them for unlawful purposed.  I personally see no need for a bump fire stock.  But when that doesn't fix the problem what is going on the table next?  No matter what the "gun control" looks like, criminals are still criminals and will find ways to illegally attain firearms and use them in an unlawful manner.

http://www.bizpacreview.com/2018/03/04/republicans-harsh-truth-gun-violence-america-prompts-democrats-walk-outrage-speech-goes-viral-609634?utm_sourc
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on March 07, 2018, 09:13:54 AM
Saw that last night, guy is spot on.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on March 07, 2018, 09:27:14 AM
All that said, I do think anything that allows a high cyclic rate needs to be regulated. Not necessarily banned but stamped like a FA weapon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Here’s some numbers, about those weapons and more laws.
https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=233077

At the end of the day us being “more responsible” gun owners with “more laws” or “different ones” really isn’t going to make a major impact on any real number. That is a fact, so why would I submit to more crap laws that don’t work or are not enforced? I won’t, plain and simple.

Talk to your blue in the face and it won’t chenge my opinion. Adding more laws won’t fix the moral decay in our society. Regardless of how many databases I am in currently (quite a few by my simple math btw) it really doesn’t change things for me either. Until someone gets the nutsack to come start confiscating from all these lists debating which law or system is better is nothing but a pile of steer crap. My 2 cents, have a lovely day everyone!
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: Flyin6 on March 07, 2018, 10:06:39 AM
How do you get blue in the face anyway?

Always wondered about that

I've seen blue lips flying at very high altitudes (20,000 feet) with no oxygen, but that was just blue lips. No blue face...

#Hashtag: Things pilots think about, things that don't matter, old wives tales, thinks Shawn says in his sleep
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on March 07, 2018, 10:09:30 AM
 :knucklehead:
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: KensAuto on March 07, 2018, 01:38:52 PM
Adding more laws won’t fix the moral decay in our society.

 :likebutton:
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: JR on March 07, 2018, 04:52:00 PM
Adding more laws won’t fix the moral decay in our society.

 :likebutton:

Must agree  :likebutton:
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: OldKooT on March 08, 2018, 11:50:02 AM
Funny deal Shawn... we pretty much agree.

Laws won't fix mass shootings (correct) Some well thought out rules, may prevent some...if enforced... (debatable) As I see it, the laws are coming, regardless. That's what a society that's morally decayed does. They make stupid laws to replace common sense and moral values. Study history....this is quite clear, and factually what has always happened.

So...the laws will come, which side do we want to be on? Do we want to be Morally valued/responsible to see/call out... there is a issue, and in some areas we as gun owners can bring forth more common sense, responsibility and do what we can to make sure we have set a standard? Or we will be dictated to how we shall live by that very decay we have discussed? It's not just about laws new or old.. it's about the big picture.

Lets face it... if society was "healthy" that Sheriff, much the school administration, and some FED's, and who knows who else would be unemployed, and likely in a few cases, detained and held responsible. As most are, this was preventable on many levels of obvious reality. Your right, society failed... I just don't buy into the logic that we as gun owners don't hold some of that responsibility.

We can do better and not infringe our rights.  We can as a HUGE part of this country's citizens say we will not tolerate this decay...we will do WHAT it takes to put a stop to this. The "what" regarding laws/rules whatever should be OUR rules of said engagement....not some politician or professor or media personality. Our Ideas offered, vetted against OUR constitution, assuring no one gives up rights. But towards a goal of doing our part... to PROTECT our rights.

Once that has been established....maybe society will see the REAL issue. Some of that decay falls at the feet of gun owners who can't seem to distinguish between the right to bare arms.... and the convenience of bearing arms.

If I bitch slapped every person I saw with a AR15 at the range who has ZERO clue how to handle that weapon (likely any other weapon also) and confiscated said weapon, I'd own a few hundred AR's. We have all seen it, we all know that's true, and maybe we should establish exactly what should be done about it?   

These "shooters" by default, despite our wishes, are gun owners. Are we policing our ranks to the best of our abilities on ALL levels?

Obviously we are not...











Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: Bob Smith on March 08, 2018, 03:52:58 PM

Funny deal Shawn... we pretty much agree.

Laws won't fix mass shootings (correct) Some well thought out rules, may prevent some...if enforced... (debatable) As I see it, the laws are coming, regardless. That's what a society that's morally decayed does. They make stupid laws to replace common sense and moral values. Study history....this is quite clear, and factually what has always happened.

So...the laws will come, which side do we want to be on? Do we want to be Morally valued/responsible to see/call out... there is a issue, and in some areas we as gun owners can bring forth more common sense, responsibility and do what we can to make sure we have set a standard? Or we will be dictated to how we shall live by that very decay we have discussed? It's not just about laws new or old.. it's about the big picture.

Lets face it... if society was "healthy" that Sheriff, much the school administration, and some FED's, and who knows who else would be unemployed, and likely in a few cases, detained and held responsible. As most are, this was preventable on many levels of obvious reality. Your right, society failed... I just don't buy into the logic that we as gun owners don't hold some of that responsibility.

We can do better and not infringe our rights.  We can as a HUGE part of this country's citizens say we will not tolerate this decay...we will do WHAT it takes to put a stop to this. The "what" regarding laws/rules whatever should be OUR rules of said engagement....not some politician or professor or media personality. Our Ideas offered, vetted against OUR constitution, assuring no one gives up rights. But towards a goal of doing our part... to PROTECT our rights.

Once that has been established....maybe society will see the REAL issue. Some of that decay falls at the feet of gun owners who can't seem to distinguish between the right to bare arms.... and the convenience of bearing arms.

If I bitch slapped every person I saw with a AR15 at the range who has ZERO clue how to handle that weapon (likely any other weapon also) and confiscated said weapon, I'd own a few hundred AR's. We have all seen it, we all know that's true, and maybe we should establish exactly what should be done about it?   

These "shooters" by default, despite our wishes, are gun owners. Are we policing our ranks to the best of our abilities on ALL levels?

Obviously we are not...


I would not be to quick to try to take my AR away from me. No I don't have the most up to date training but after the fight I just might come out the winner in this fight.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: JR on March 08, 2018, 04:27:56 PM
Following on that Norm here is Kali we have a basic safety course you have to pass to buy a firearm.

Plus you must be able to store safely. Simple as a cheap safe, which for most of us is common sense anyway.

I for one have no problem with this, but I still have access to a gun or 2 all the time.

Common sense and firearm handling should go hand in hand. But like many things today, common sense is lacking.
Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: OldKooT on March 08, 2018, 04:54:48 PM
Jr... I think if we were brutally honest, go back a few decades, gun "handling" and responsibility was likely taught at home by a Father or Grandfather. This was that "fire arms safety" course they have today in Cali.

I am sure country wide this is slowly eroded by separated families and the increase in single parent families. It's not just firearms either.

Last night our community lost a 18 and a 19 year old  in a gravel road T bone collision. Another 19 year old hit them in his Dodge 3/4 ton when they ran a stop sign in a Taurus. An officer at the scene said they must have all 3 had their eyes closed. He couldn't understand how that actually even happened if they were paying attention at all...I rolled through a gravel road stop sign when I was 12, my grandfather about beat me on the spot. I remember his words...You NEVER DO THAT BOY, EVER, you could kill someone. I don't care what you THINK ... NEVER you understand? LoL I can still hear him and ya know... I stop.



Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: JR on March 08, 2018, 06:36:45 PM
I agree again Norm on gun training. I have drummed this into all my kids.

Plus it is safety in general, using some common sense. That is so lacking these days, just like regular families. Notice how most here have regular families and support systems?

On the stop sign, I had a similar occurrence when on patrol a few years back. I was sitting at a T in the road where I had to turn L/R on a gravel road and saw headlights behind me. They came up fast and I moved over and they drove right by into an open field sliding sideways until they stopped. When I came up to them it was some kids just messing around. No damage and no wants so I cleared em. They were lucky there was no canal or ditch on the other side which very common here.

Title: Re: Trump to Sessions “ban bump fire stocks”
Post by: stlaser on November 30, 2018, 08:29:26 AM
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/11/29/report-president-trump-signing-bump-stock-ban-citizens-have-90-days-to-turn-them-in/
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