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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Any concrete guys here?
« on: July 16, 2015, 09:17:31 AM »
Also working on plans for a 40x60 metal building. Starting with the concrete.

I understand that its all about uniform load bearing subgrade, subbase and base.

I have a spot picked out and need to remove a few small trees and one or two 18-24inch trees and bring in some fill/base

So once I clear the trees and remove the stumps,

1. compact all the disturbed soil (or should I till and then compact ALL the soil?)
2. bring in sub base about 3-4 inches and compact
3. bring in fine base and compact
4. 1/2 rebar on 16 inch center

questions -

will using a dozer to compact the  ground be sufficient?
when buying sub base and base, what are the industry terms and specs I need to look for when buying these fills?
Are beams absolutely necessary or is a 6 inch slab sufficient?

Would I save much by doing all the prep and forming myself and just hiring labor to finish the concrete when I have the trucks deliver? or will I be on the wrong side of the cost benefit curve ? 

Am I missing anthing?  Remember I'm in a frost free area in Texas.

Thanks
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Offline KensAuto

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2015, 10:24:48 AM »
No experts it appears, so I'll give some second hand advise.

The ones I've helped on, done myself, or paid for (out here) they just compact the current base...but maybe it's about location. Also the local experts don't use steel in the concrete anymore. They prefer to use a high strength mix and saw cutting every 100 sq ft or less. They say that it's better than having the steel rust and fail in 20 years. Dunno..
I do know there's 2 types of pours; monolithic and the other one. lol   Mono for pouring the footings and the floor at the same time. I believe you have to use rebar to tie the 2 together. Concrete guys like this type because it's easier, faster...doing it all at the same time....but it may not even be an option as far as passing code in some areas.
The other type; Foundations/footers are poured, then the floor seperately, allowing it to float as the building settles.

I don't believe a dozer would compact very well....they're meant to have a light footprint.

At my shop, we poured 7" of high strength...no steel, and it's holding fine.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2015, 10:26:57 AM by KensAuto »
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Offline Atkinsmatt

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2015, 10:45:01 AM »
I have saved time and money at work (Corps of Engineer projects/ one was a tank maintenance bay) on slabs doing a mix with 3-4k strength and adding structural fiber to strengthen the concrete as opposed to rebar.  There are issues with rebar like Ken said and they add the fiber at the plant when they mix it and done.  I would go with the monolithic placement as you knock it out all at once.  The only thing you would need to install is the anchorage for the steel and any rough-in items.  Concrete is going to crack and sawing is like telling it where.

Need a roller as the dozer wouldn't achieve uniform compaction.  57 stone would be fine for the base.  Not sure what type sub base you have around to select from.  Something with some clay as moisture will help with the compaction.  How much you need to add on top of existing is based on the site selected.
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Offline Dawg25385

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2015, 10:48:16 AM »
I know on our build site, they are going to bring in a roller for the slabs even after the 700 JD dozer tracked the dirt in... and for what it's worth, our slabs (1200 sq ft in the garage, and almost 1700 in the shop) will not have rebar, but structural fiber in the mud instead.
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2015, 08:11:04 PM »
What kind of a roller?  I've seen the vibratory plates and the jumping foot type but would rather have something a bit larger
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Offline Dawg25385

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2015, 08:13:01 PM »
You're describing compactors, the roller I'm talking about is driven... Like what you would see rolling fresh asphalt


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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2015, 08:25:59 PM »
Oh, not sure I want to rent one of those for just a 40x60 job. I guess if I could find one by the day close by

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Offline Dawg25385

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2015, 08:33:25 PM »
Probably... See if you can get Darren to chime in. I don't want to give ya a bum steer on this thing...


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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2015, 08:37:09 PM »
I think Armalite does clearing and pad prep too.  Guys? 

Also, with a 6 inch slab, I shouldn't need any beams around the perimeter I would imagine?  The building is not that heavy and I just want to be able to use a post lift for working on vehicles
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Offline Atkinsmatt

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2015, 09:20:33 PM »
Should work. Try to use in lifts of about 4" or so.
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2015, 09:24:35 PM »
Im still a little unclear on what to ask for when looking for the fill?  I plan to clear the land smooth it, compact it, form it up on three sides, then start adding fill and compacting until I get it where I need it.  But I'm not sure what to ask for when asking about fill/base/subbase
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Offline Atkinsmatt

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2015, 10:13:36 PM »
I would get it to grade before forming.   Use 2x8 and put 2 inches of 57 stone in for base. Depending on grade and compaction you may not need much if any fill or sub base.
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Offline Wilbur

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2015, 10:21:21 PM »
Hey you're already getting better advice than I could possibly give you so this is probably moot but I would check if the lift you want has any requirements for strength or depth of concrete. I don't know much about how they spread the loads and lots of folks seem to put them in garages without too much extra engineering but I figure it's worth double checking before you pour to be safe. Good luck!

Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2015, 10:31:50 PM »
Thanks Wilbur, good idea.

So Matt.  I'll need to bring the native soil up about 6 inches (the site slopes a bit) towards one end.  What do I use to bring the soil up before forming and using the 57?

Thanks for the help.
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Offline Atkinsmatt

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2015, 10:49:20 PM »
Can you harvest from somewhere else on site? You may be able to come down a little on one end to raise the other. If not check with a couple local haulers and site guys. Ask about a DOT pit.
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Offline rasimmo

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2015, 11:13:13 PM »
Around me we just use red clay dirt as fill and foundation. Scrape off sod and top soil down to the clay and fill with clay in layers to desired height. Compaction is done with the dozer for slabs of this size. I know several folks who do foundation work and I have done it in the past and that's the process we use. For much larger commercial buildings, roads, and parking lots we use rollers for compaction.
For the concrete on metal buildings it is always better to do beams or at the very least a partial one where the support posts are. I guess I'm the only one here that thinks this way, but I will always use metal in my slabs. What most recommend is at least 4 runs of at least 1/2" bar in the beams and 6'x6'x1/4" mesh sheets throughout the slab. I have seen 12"x12"x 1/4" used and the contractor said you can get it closer to center of the slab when pouring because you can stand in the holes and not on the mesh when pulling it up. Just for reference the cost for forming, pouring, and finishing a slab is around $4.50 per sq ft. That includes materials and concrete. That is in SE La and I have talked with a contractor from Orange, Tx who said their price was the same.

Offline KensAuto

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2015, 11:17:12 PM »
It would make sense to pull dirt from the high side to the low side. less fill that way.
Hoists require minimum of 4". I went with 12" where I knew the hoists were going and 7" everywhere else because I need it to support motorhomes, big trucks now and then, etc.
Even tho it's just a steel building, I'm pretty sure you still want footers wherever there will be a load bearing (roof supporting) beam. The roof will be where the weight is. I'm assuming it will look like the ones I've seen, where they use vertical I-beams about every 10' or so...?..?
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Offline JR

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2015, 01:43:49 AM »
The places I would even concern myself about settling is where the stumps are pulled. An 18-24 inch tree can have a big root system to soften that soil. You can get a pretty big void later.

I like the idea of mesh or steel too. Heck you see all these building they tear down and that bar is not giving up easy! You should see the footing for my second story garage. They are 4' deep.

 
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2015, 07:19:09 AM »
Around me we just use red clay dirt as fill and foundation. Scrape off sod and top soil down to the clay and fill with clay in layers to desired height. Compaction is done with the dozer for slabs of this size. I know several folks who do foundation work and I have done it in the past and that's the process we use. For much larger commercial buildings, roads, and parking lots we use rollers for compaction.
For the concrete on metal buildings it is always better to do beams or at the very least a partial one where the support posts are. I guess I'm the only one here that thinks this way, but I will always use metal in my slabs. What most recommend is at least 4 runs of at least 1/2" bar in the beams and 6'x6'x1/4" mesh sheets throughout the slab. I have seen 12"x12"x 1/4" used and the contractor said you can get it closer to center of the slab when pouring because you can stand in the holes and not on the mesh when pulling it up. Just for reference the cost for forming, pouring, and finishing a slab is around $4.50 per sq ft. That includes materials and concrete. That is in SE La and I have talked with a contractor from Orange, Tx who said their price was the same.

Thanks , I was thinking about $5/ft so that helps.  I assume that includes also only minimum site prep and pad work?  Any tree removal and significant build up would be additional?
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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2015, 07:21:22 AM »
I am sure it would be extra.  Does the building manufacturer have and guidance on the slab?
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2015, 07:30:48 AM »
Hadn't chosen a manufacturer yet, but it should be pretty standard stuff.  I'll do some checking there.  I'm going with 16 ft walls to accommodate the 5th wheel.
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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2015, 08:10:30 AM »
Before you buy, see what their recommendations are.  Some of the design takes uplift into account as well as bearing pressure in the event of weather events.  Also see what the manufacturer of the 2 post recommends.  Now is the time to get it how you need it to be.
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Offline rasimmo

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2015, 03:28:42 PM »

Thanks , I was thinking about $5/ft so that helps.  I assume that includes also only minimum site prep and pad work?  Any tree removal and significant build up would be additional?

You assume correctly. The concrete guys I know like to show up to a dirt pad that is almost level and ready for them to form up and dig beams. They do the final level to make sure it is all good after the forms are built. I'm not sure of your plan on getting the building up. If you are going to hire that done it would be best to get with that builder before you make a building purchase. There are several guys around me that put these things up. If you go with their supplier you can usually get a better price through them instead of purchasing the building from one of the big name suppliers then contacting someone to put it up.

Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2015, 11:08:14 PM »
I'm leaning towards  doing the grading and forming myself and hiring a crew to come lay/float the mix since it will likely take 6-8 guys to do it right.
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2015, 08:53:19 AM »
I'm leaning towards  doing the grading and forming myself and hiring a crew to come lay/float the mix since it will likely take 6-8 guys to do it right.
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2015, 09:10:38 AM »
I will in a few weeks.  Narrowing down tractors to buy.  Probably a Kubota Lseries 38-45hp.  Box blade and post hole digger on my list
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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2015, 09:21:55 AM »
I will in a few weeks.  Narrowing down tractors to buy.  Probably a Kubota Lseries 38-45hp.  Box blade and post hole digger on my list
If you want to be digging and dragging heavier stuff, at least 45 HP
My farm tractor which is still a compact is a 66HP
Take a look at it, since you go toward the higher quality spectrum
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I got the optional aft hydraulics which plumbed right into the 4-1 bucket. You'll want to consider one of those as well. Allows you to grab stuff like a big powerful hand
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Offline Dustoff35

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2015, 01:43:20 PM »
I just came across this, sorry for the delayed post:

On the issue of rebar in the concrete, my opinion differs from several previous posters.  I say use reinforcing steel.  Its cheap insurance to do it now, it will prevent the slab from settling when it cracks.  I used 1/2" on 16" centers in my garage floor. I wired plastic concrete chairs underneath the grid to keep the steel up in the bottom third of the slab also.  Reinforcement steel does little good if it is underneath the concrete.  It needs to be in the slab.

Some concrete workers will complain about the chairs because they have to lift their foot to step over the rebar or risk tripping.  These same guys will tell you that they can just as effectively lift the rebar or mesh up into the slab as they are pouring.  Not likely.  Don't buy that one.  Suspend it 2 inches above, on chairs before they pour.

Fiber reinforcement is fine, but is no substitute for steel.

Don's builder talked him out of steel reinforcement in his garage floor and driveway, they just used fiber reinforcement.  He can chime in as to whether or not he regrets that decision...   

« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 08:51:47 PM by Dustoff35 »

Offline Dustoff35

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2015, 01:59:00 PM »
You might be able to make out the chairs I referenced above in this photo.  The plastic sheeting keeps moisture from wicking into the soil and helps slow down the curing of the concrete which in turn strengthens the slab.



Maybe I should post up a build thread of my garage...

Offline Nate

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2015, 02:54:45 PM »
sounds like a good idea duane since i am sure your not doing much with the current situation of the back............;D
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2015, 03:51:10 PM »
Thanks Duane. I'm going to take it slow and clear the land where I want the shop and then work on grading and compacting before digging the perimeter beams. Any advice on how to place rebar in perimeter beams?


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Offline JR

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2015, 06:42:37 PM »
I have lots of steel in my garage floor and driveway poured about 8 years ago. Lots of cracks because of digging for second story footings and they didn't use an expansion for the driveway! I cut a slot for the driveway, but I think the concrete is to think to do any real good. I also have solid concrete 10 wide all the way down the side of the house with steel.
 
Both of these used chairs and the concrete has cracked but no where has it separated or come up. Steel is the way to go from this rookie.
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Offline Dustoff35

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2015, 07:32:38 AM »
Thanks Duane. I'm going to take it slow and clear the land where I want the shop and then work on grading and compacting before digging the perimeter beams. Any advice on how to place rebar in perimeter beams?

My actual hands-on experience in rebar placement is in slabs only.  There are minimum engineering standards that you want to adhere to that vary by region, state and locality.  Soil quality is a consideration: sandy vs. loamy vs. clay vs. rocky soil types.  Freeze-thaw cycling (which doesn't affect you) is another consideration.

To be honest, I hire out my concrete work unless it is limited to mixing a few bags and dumping it out of a wheel-barrow.  You get one shot to do it right once the trucks arrive and a 60x 40 is no small undertaking.  You can stop during every other construction task to re-evaluate and adjust-fire.  Mess up during a monolithic pour and you will have a nightmare on your hands that will be very costly to tear-out and do-over or a sub-standard job that will haunt you for years.  Find good, quality professionals who will do the job to your spec. 

You might be able to save a little $$ by supplying materials, (i.e. opening your own contractor's account with the redi-mix plant, getting steel on your own) and paying your concrete subs in cash upon satisfactory completion.  I actually prefer this method as I control the material quality and cost.  I don't pay for materials until they hit my property and I don't pay the subs until the job is done.     

 


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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2015, 08:52:34 AM »
I agree with Duane.  In the middle of a slab is no place for an issue.  A quality sub makes all of the difference.  He has great recommendations about the chairs and steel placement.  Again, once you select a building manufacturer, see what there recommendations are for the slab and footers.
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2015, 10:40:29 AM »
My thoughts were to do all the forming and then hire a 6-8 man crew to manage the pour and float. All I would be paying for is labor.since I would be paying for the mix. Other than making sure you get a qualified crew are there any pitfalls with that approach h?


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« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 10:41:11 AM by TexasRedNeck »
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Offline Dustoff35

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2015, 11:09:02 AM »
Most of the experienced, reputable types that I know would want to form it up also.  If I were your sub-contractor, I would want to set the forms myself to ensure they were accurately placed and secure.  A form blowing out or moving during the pour is one of those "issues" that you must avoid. 

Be the QC guy, with the tape measure, ensuring the pad is square and the anchor bolts are accurately placed.

Just my opinion...   
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 11:31:34 AM by Dustoff35 »

Offline Nate

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Re: Any concrete guys here?
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2015, 02:01:47 PM »
Most of the experienced, reputable types that I know would want to form it up also.  If I were your sub-contractor, I would want to set the forms myself to ensure they were accurately placed and secure.  A form blowing out or moving during the pour is one of those "issues" that you must avoid. 

Be the QC guy, with the tape measure, ensuring the pad is square and the anchor bolts are accurately placed.

Just my opinion...   

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