Something diffrent

[JR]

Lets see, OV-10, Mohawk, B-25, A-26. Or maybe just another single engine?

[Flyin6]

He's on to some cool twin.

Semi warbirdish I'm thinking. Beech 18 is still my best guess, but did he score a C-47???

[JR]

Any WWII bird would be crazy $$$$.

OV-10s are cool, not hard to find and fast.

[dave945]

F-82 Twin mustang


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TexasRedNeck]

What ever it is I hope it has a v-12 Merlin……


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Flyin6]

F-82 Twin mustang


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Way too rare...even for a senior Space-X engineer!

You'd sooner find common sense in the Whitehouse!

[Flyin6]

 

What ever it is I hope it has a v-12 Merlin……


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You (and I) WISH!!!!!!!

Tex, I don't think Phil likes you,  but he likes me. Meaning: I'd likely get a little bit of stick time. Pretty sure I'll get to fly his T-28 someday...Maybe a long solo back to some hidden airstrip in the tuck...  ;-)

[wilsonphil]

I am not a fan of the Merlin, don't get me wrong in its day it was the best option available.

Back in the day when nobody wanted a military and the cold war was over I played a lot with the Merlin, mostly Radials, even sleeve valve engines, and early turbines with a bit of very poorly designed jets.

The warbirds are interesting but the whole issue is the "war" aspect.  They were designed and built to be disposable(100hrs), not saying they are bad but never designed for a long hual. 

I was told by many people after WW2 was over there was almost a city block of new Packard built Merlins stacked in crates, the scrap guys bought them up and set a smelter on site, a group of guys just going around and breaking away the crate and dumping a new engine into the smelter.

I was told it took almost 9 months to melt all those engines down.  Same for the 4360's they were melting them down for the silver in the main bearings.  and so many planes met their fate that way.

Sad but true!

I have some pictures of the P51 and TF51 I was playing with but they are film so I will have to dig them up.

[Flyin6]

I am not a fan of the Merlin, don't get me wrong in its day it was the best option available.

Back in the day when nobody wanted a military and the cold war was over I played a lot with the Merlin, mostly Radials, even sleeve valve engines, and early turbines with a bit of very poorly designed jets.

The warbirds are interesting but the whole issue is the "war" aspect.  They were designed and built to be disposable(100hrs), not saying they are bad but never designed for a long hual. 

I was told by many people after WW2 was over there was almost a city block of new Packard built Merlins stacked in crates, the scrap guys bought them up and set a smelter on site, a group of guys just going around and breaking away the crate and dumping a new engine into the smelter.

I was told it took almost 9 months to melt all those engines down.  Same for the 4360's they were melting them down for the silver in the main bearings.  and so many planes met their fate that way.

Sad but true!

I have some pictures of the P51 and TF51 I was playing with but they are film so I will have to dig them up.

I remember seeing rows and rows of WW2 warbirds at Aberdeen proving grounds, MD. They were given to a guillotine contraption which reduced them down to bite-sized chunks. Saw many B-52's and others all pulled into pieces over at Davis-Monthan. Such a sad site IMHO. I don't only see them as machines, but as spiritual things that men flew in and worked on and slaved over. Each airplane could tell a thousand stories of the people who touched them...Human lives which have come and gone into the American experience.
I truly believe that the spirits of some men who died in those machines still haunt them. Know personally of a very real occurrence in a MH-47 that happened to a Vietnam-era pilot who was sleeping in the thing one night. Chuck knew it was the spirit of someone who died onboard so he went on a records search. Sure enough, it had been a 101st bird as a "B" model in Vietnam and had a storied past.
These machines are made to be more than nuts. bolts, rivets, and oil by the men who created and maintained and flew them. Cars, not so much, but flying machines, most definitely.

[wilsonphil]

Couldn't agree more, the machine is only as good as the person operating it becomes an extension of the operator . 

Skill and confidence can go a very long way, up and to the point the machine cannot do what the operator wants it to do.

Its super sad to see those planes get cut up especially the ones as you said if they could talk,  the stories those birds could tell and what they went thru the people that operated them.

My dad back in 1965 could of bought a P51D that were just released from Canadian service the price you ask $6500, well he did the sensible thing and bought a house instead. 

Even then nobody really wanted those planes you had to have a interest in them, and alot of those planes were still sitting around rotting on airports all over.

[JR]

Sensible or not, the P-51 would be worth WAY more than that house!

OV-10, still around, nice CR turbines and can carry quite a bit.

[wilsonphil]

True but nobody has a crystal ball, then remember you have to maintain and put fuel in it and so on.  P51's were around then and he had access to them when he wanted to fly one, it wasnt until they started racing them in the 70's the price came up.

BUT its worse, in 1960 when my dad was still in the AF he was offered a flying P38 FREE!  now all of you are saying WTH, remember those planes were not worth anything then, typically a company bought one to do a certain task and then they scrapped them or left them to rot.  they were not well kept nothing like the full resto's you see now, those planes were just abused.

The P38 had a survey nose on it and the airport manager said all my dad had to do was put fuel in it and fly it out.  My dad made $50 a month and fuel was $0.25c a gallon.  the P38 carried 400gal do the math.  Then where do you keep it.

[Flyin6]

True but nobody has a crystal ball, then remember you have to maintain and put fuel in it and so on.  P51's were around then and he had access to them when he wanted to fly one, it wasnt until they started racing them in the 70's the price came up.

BUT its worse, in 1960 when my dad was still in the AF he was offered a flying P38 FREE!  now all of you are saying WTH, remember those planes were not worth anything then, typically a company bought one to do a certain task and then they scrapped them or left them to rot.  they were not well kept nothing like the full resto's you see now, those planes were just abused.

The P38 had a survey nose on it and the airport manager said all my dad had to do was put fuel in it and fly it out.  My dad made $50 a month and fuel was $0.25c a gallon.  the P38 carried 400gal do the math.  Then where do you keep it.

Rich uncle? Friend with $$$, maybe even fake a kidnapping...! I mean, hey, a P38!!!!!!

[JR]

Yeah, for that price something could have worked!!

[wilsonphil]

Well lets put this in perspective.

First the plane was worth nothing!  thats the idea behind free!

lets go back when we were all 20yo and in military, all of us had large amounts of unlimited cash(not)

Lets say someone is giving you a D10 Cat free!  all you have to do is fill up the diesel and arrange transport and find a place to keep it until you are done with your next deployment.  And how many of us had resources to even know people that can help with getting all of this done.

Most of us are older now and forget what those days were like,   

[wyorunner]

Well lets put this in perspective.

First the plane was worth nothing!  thats the idea behind free!

lets go back when we were all 20yo and in military, all of us had large amounts of unlimited cash(not)

Lets say someone is giving you a D10 Cat free!  all you have to do is fill up the diesel and arrange transport and find a place to keep it until you are done with your next deployment.  And how many of us had resources to even know people that can help with getting all of this done.

Most of us are older now and forget what those days were like,

Young and carefree! Wasn’t focused on much else than Friday, and the next deployment or next school.

[TexasRedNeck]

Phil what’s the minimum runway length for takeoff?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wilsonphil]

It would depend on a couple factors figure 3K ft   You can do it shorter but like I said factors come into play

landing same thing but figure 2.5K.

Ideally if you have a 4K strip you should be golden from an operational standpoint.


And this is at sea levielish performance.

[Flyin6]

It would depend on a couple factors figure 3K ft   You can do it shorter but like I said factors come into play

landing same thing but figure 2.5K.

Ideally if you have a 4K strip you should be golden from an operational standpoint.


And this is at sea levielish performance.

And for those who drove larger than Cessna 172 sized airplanes, 4,000 feet is short.
What is the balanced field runway requirement with a full bag of gas and two peeps?

[wilsonphil]

Most of the bases the T28 were stationed at were 7K ft  or longer. 

I always think these pictures/vids are interesting! 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COovw-9Wajc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJbETdIK8pA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqrYLYRRONw

[wilsonphil]

Ill leave this right here!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyEJ-F16nPQ

[JR]

So adding a little spice to the fleet?

[Flyin6]

So that's it? That's the one?

(Sad eyes) It's not a Huey....

[wilsonphil]

So in the meantime back at the hanger, the prop has been removed for overhaul.  This is a Hamilton Standard 43D50, it weights 600lbs according to the book, the blades are solid Aluminum.

The pitch(movement) of the blades is controlled by engine oil. There is a prop governor on top of the engine case that directs oil to this dome thru the transfer tube.  took about 2 hrs to remove and it left for the overhaul shop today.

I should get it back in 3 months!
 

[JR]

3 months is crazy. I think everyone is using covid as an excuse.

[TexasRedNeck]

So what do they do to it during an overhaul?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wilsonphil]

Basically completely disassembled, inspected, everything dimensionally inspected, gears are mag-particle checked.  The Blades will get stripped down to bare metal small nicks and dings blended out where possible, blades will then be repainted and balanced.  The assembly will be function checked, internal stops adjusted if needed and then sent back to me for reinstall.

Big unknown is corrosion, the blades have an epoxy chuff that sometimes cracks and lets water get between the bales and the epoxy bond.  Planes in normal operation typically it dose not bother. its the units like mine that just sit around that develop issues.

Spare parts have dried up for the most part, all the surplus parts are pretty much gone so if I need blades it will get real pricey, figure a good serviceable blade might be as much as 10K ea.  hopefully my unit will just need a normal standard overhaul.

 

 

[wilsonphil]

3 months is crazy. I think everyone is using covid as an excuse.

Its not Covid or the shops blaming Covid, the real issue is dependable help EVERY shop I have talked to has told me the same thing that they cannot find good people or people that will show up to work.  I have seen this even in our industry its a very bad work ethic out there right now.

Its what happens when you pay people to stay home and pay them very well for that, some of the people I recently interviewed were telling me they were making 2-3K a month during covid.

[TexasRedNeck]

3 months is crazy. I think everyone is using covid as an excuse.

Its not Covid or the shops blaming Covid, the real issue is dependable help EVERY shop I have talked to has told me the same thing that they cannot find good people or people that will show up to work.  I have seen this even in our industry its a very bad work ethic out there right now.

Its what happens when you pay people to stay home and pay them very well for that, some of the people I recently interviewed were telling me they were making 2-3K a month during covid.

Let’s go Brandon.


Another lost generation. Those that work had and get ahead will be told they only succeeded due to some “privilege” they didn’t earn. And then be burdened with taxes to pay for the lazy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JR]

Is that 10k for a blade or the entire assembly?

Well I would say it is covid related to a point. SO many were told to stay home, got benefits for being alive and had bills payed for them or extended out. Parents let em live at home way longer or come on back and have it easy.

But yes we have a large part of our workforce now who just don't. So many good solid ethics have dried up.

[wilsonphil]

yes 10K PER blade, a replacement prop complete will cost between 30-50K depending on the condition.

[Bigdave_185]

You said aluminum and my first thought was how sexy polished would be!!! Oh man but I’m also not paying the bill or knowledges enough to know the affects of that vs a coating.  And it’s not period correct also


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nate]

Phil, are you member or trying to become a member of the outfit that just had the catastrophic accident in dallas? Cant remember their group name.

[wilsonphil]

No, many reasons why.  You saw one of them right there with that airshow.

Most of you know just having experience or a pilot saying they have X thousand hours dose not mean they are good pilots or use good judgement. 

The CAF dose not have a stellar reputation, I will not bad mouth because I have not dealt with them personally.  Do a internet search and you will see what I mean.

I used to run around and work the airshow/air race scene but I learned real fast what that was all about.

I like to go to airshows but do want to be part of the "groupie" crowd

MOST of those owners are just into the flight suits, glamor, rich guys that don't have really any appreciation of the aircraft they own.  Its a shiny new toy that is more investment than a airplane.  They do the absolute MIN to keep the plane flying UNLESS it involves polishing or some new avionics package.  In most cases they are just own the machine to stroke their ego.  They hire the cheapest people they can find to work on the planes that should not be consuming oxygen let alone working on airplanes.

I love flying, all types of aviation.  I love the mechanical aspect of aircraft and enjoy working on them as much as flying, I just want a solid mechanical bird everything else is secondary. 

The T28 or any "warbird"  for that matter is not something you buy to be a easy/pleasant flight experience.

If you want nice you would buy a PC-12, TBM or Caravan or Piper M600 

[Flyin6]

OK, well, I could easily own a Caravan. Couldn't afford to pay for it nor fly it, but that's an everyday plane I would own.

[wilsonphil]

Don you would look real good in a Caravan  I think a decent used one can be had for 800K now, but they are thirsty burn like 50GPH (like the T28)

[wilsonphil]

You said aluminum and my first thought was how sexy polished would be!!! Oh man but I’m also not paying the bill or knowledges enough to know the affects of that vs a coating.  And it’s not period correct also


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Im not into the polishing group.  They do look nice all polished up but I'm more of a function person.  I really like what Redbull did with their T28!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnPFoiN0JrE

[JR]

Nice version with a military theme. I still like camo.

[Nate]

No, many reasons why.  You saw one of them right there with that airshow.

Most of you know just having experience or a pilot saying they have X thousand hours dose not mean they are good pilots or use good judgement. 

The CAF dose not have a stellar reputation, I will not bad mouth because I have not dealt with them personally.  Do a internet search and you will see what I mean.

I used to run around and work the airshow/air race scene but I learned real fast what that was all about.

I like to go to airshows but do want to be part of the "groupie" crowd

MOST of those owners are just into the flight suits, glamor, rich guys that don't have really any appreciation of the aircraft they own.  Its a shiny new toy that is more investment than a airplane.  They do the absolute MIN to keep the plane flying UNLESS it involves polishing or some new avionics package.  In most cases they are just own the machine to stroke their ego.  They hire the cheapest people they can find to work on the planes that should not be consuming oxygen let alone working on airplanes.

I love flying, all types of aviation.  I love the mechanical aspect of aircraft and enjoy working on them as much as flying, I just want a solid mechanical bird everything else is secondary. 

The T28 or any "warbird"  for that matter is not something you buy to be a easy/pleasant flight experience.

If you want nice you would buy a PC-12, TBM or Caravan or Piper M600 

its interesting sometimes when you can get a peek behind the facade and find out the truth. 

[wilsonphil]

Update, prop shop called me back once they got the unit apart.

BAD news, 2ea bad blades.  I knew this was a possibility when I sent it out.  So I am searching for parts, I might of found some but its a crap shoot until the shop says OK with anything I have sent to them for inspection . 
As I said people are not bashful with asking prices.

Pictures attached of the failed units, they failed on corrosion.  The pitting you see is from Shot Peen the craters is the corrosion.  These pictures have been magnified so thats why it looks like that.

[JR]

Ouch

[EL TATE]

Sorry man. Good thing it's caught in inspection though rather than proven in the air.

[Bigdave_185]

Phil what part of the prop is that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wilsonphil]

your looking up inside the cuff of the blade.

[Flyin6]

Sorry man. Good thing it's caught in inspection though rather than proven in the air.

Aient that the truth
Comair, the airline I flew for
Operated Brazillia 33-passenger (EMB-120) turbo-prop airplanes when I first showed up to fly.
I actually got type-rated in the thing
One of ours, departing OHR had a prop fail and come off over Lake Erie.
The company and the manufacturer wanted so badly to know what happened and caused the failure that they hired people to dive really deep and retrieve it
Well, they found it and brought it to the surface, then to a prop shop
The cause was: Corrosion and metal fatigue.
Stuff that weighs that much that is spinnin' that fast has no appetite for corrosion, imbalance, cracks, or, really, anything!

[wilsonphil]

Yea throwing a blade one one of these(any rotating assembly) is usually followed by engine leaving the firewall right after that. 

A lot of these planes were at one time operated in a sea/salt conditions and once it gets in it never sleeps.  Too date I am not aware of this blade ever failing in operation on any configuration that doesn't mean I want to be the first. 

https://simpleflying.com/uk-deadliest-helicopter-accident-anniversary/

This was due to corrosion, I guess they thought it would be OK to operate in a high salt environment and now worry about it.   

[Flyin6]

Yea throwing a blade one one of these(any rotating assembly) is usually followed by engine leaving the firewall right after that. 

A lot of these planes were at one time operated in a sea/salt conditions and once it gets in it never sleeps.  Too date I am not aware of this blade ever failing in operation on any configuration that doesn't mean I want to be the first. 

https://simpleflying.com/uk-deadliest-helicopter-accident-anniversary/

This was due to corrosion, I guess they thought it would be OK to operate in a high-salt environment and now worry about it.   

The rule the military uses to define operation in a corrosive sea-salt environment is within 50 miles or 5,000 feet

Within that environment, the aircraft needs to be thoroughly washed with tons of water after use. Anti-corrosive oils, paints, and the like are also needed. Wheel bearings need to be repacked every time the wheels/tires touch salt water. A special primer, the ruddy rust-colored stuff needs to be applied over the zinc chromate. There were a ton of other things like operating the engines while water spray was directed into the intake stream and stuff like that. Might want to get up on the Navy's anti-corrosion program and cherry-pick from what they do.

[wilsonphil]

Well I plan on keeping this bird away from Salt as much as I can. This plane is really clean from a corrosion standpoint one of the reasons I bought her.   

The squids operated the T28 just North of my current location in Corpus Christie for many years, and I have seen a couple T28 that came out of there most were pretty clean. 

The sad fact is my plane is 70yo and parts are disappearing/gone or are horded up and those people think parts a worth million dollars.  and part you do locate you have no history on.

The Polish have actually started making P51 blades again and from what I'm told they are getting 12K per blade(X4)

All of this bothers me so I'm planning on a project in the very near future, this one all of you will enjoy.

[Flyin6]

Well I plan on keeping this bird away from Salt as much as I can. This plane is really clean from a corrosion standpoint one of the reasons I bought her.   

The squids operated the T28 just North of my current location in Corpus Christie for many years, and I have seen a couple T28 that came out of there most were pretty clean. 

The sad fact is my plane is 70yo and parts are disappearing/gone or are horded up and those people think parts a worth million dollars.  and part you do locate you have no history on.

The Polish have actually started making P51 blades again and from what I'm told they are getting 12K per blade(X4)

All of this bothers me so I'm planning on a project in the very near future, this one all of you will enjoy.

Re-engine with a PT6
That's my guess
Put a big "X" on the fuselage for about a year then certify it and drive on. Probably get a lot faster just with the contour of the new nose getting rid of that blunt front thingy
Just don't put a dummy in the cockpit and strap it onto a Falcon heavy and shoot it into orbit
Second thought
You could have the first Trojan that flew to mars or the Kepler belt or somewhere like that

[Bigdave_185]

Found a parts plane at the air museum this week




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk