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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #100 on: October 24, 2019, 09:01:13 AM »
That is a beauty

I would be interested if I didn't already have mine

I am having a difficult time not picking up one of these:
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #101 on: October 24, 2019, 09:48:23 AM »
What axles do you think it has under it?


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Offline EL TATE

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #102 on: October 24, 2019, 10:54:04 AM »
What axles do you think it has under it?


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Unless I am mistaken on the later year units it should have a 60/14 sm465/205 454

correct on all accounts sir.
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #103 on: October 24, 2019, 05:36:48 PM »
Back to the Burb.

I am driving it every day. It just runs great, excepting the lack of power.

Something there is amiss for sure, but by sticking my foot into it further it has a little more grunt. Maybe I am just used to a Duramax which makes all gas engines feel wimpy.

Picking up some drops of oil on the drivers floor mat. That would most likely be the Hydro boost unit. Maybe time to pull that puppy down and install some new O-Rings
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Offline JR

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #104 on: October 24, 2019, 06:33:02 PM »
Don't think there is any way oil can drip from the booster.

Maybe something you lubed and its dripping, steering univ
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #105 on: October 24, 2019, 08:23:27 PM »
Don't think there is any way oil can drip from the booster.

Maybe something you lubed and its dripping, steering univ
I beg to differ my Kali friend

The brake pedal begat the plunger which begat the piston in the booster which doth slideth to and fro. Should the seal become not so much, then fluid would be implored due to pressure to find its way onto your penny loafers or wing-tips.

So sez the Oracle, therefore it is...!
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Offline Bigdave_185

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #106 on: October 24, 2019, 10:31:20 PM »
What about your hokie park brake valve?  Is that leaking?


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Offline KensAuto

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #107 on: October 25, 2019, 12:56:46 AM »
For sure the booster.

Don, did you put stiffer valve springs in? Don't remember.

When he looked at the data, the fuel trims looked ok? Usually if there's an issue the fuel trims reflect it.

And, did you replace the O2 sensors?
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #108 on: October 25, 2019, 12:04:18 PM »
What about your hokie park brake valve?  Is that leaking?


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Naw, it's as dry as the offering plate at a Baptist convention! ;-))
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #109 on: October 25, 2019, 12:08:52 PM »
For sure the booster.

Don, did you put stiffer valve springs in? Don't remember.

When he looked at the data, the fuel trims looked ok? Usually if there's an issue the fuel trims reflect it.

And, did you replace the O2 sensors?
Ken, I think you are on it...where I was thinking

Valve train noise sounding like detonation to the knock sensors

Yes, double springs, moly pushrods, Z06 lifters

He mentioned spark knock, retarding timing, not getting into the fuel enrichment cycle.

O2 Sensors same old ones
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #110 on: October 25, 2019, 01:46:01 PM »
For sure the booster.

Don, did you put stiffer valve springs in? Don't remember.

When he looked at the data, the fuel trims looked ok? Usually if there's an issue the fuel trims reflect it.

And, did you replace the O2 sensors?
Ken, I think you are on it...where I was thinking

Valve train noise sounding like detonation to the knock sensors

Yes, double springs, moly pushrods, Z06 lifters

He mentioned spark knock, retarding timing, not getting into the fuel enrichment cycle.

O2 Sensors same old ones

i was thinking the same thing. if the timing is way regarded.. you’d lose that lope you should be getting from the cam. as well as throttle response. and.. as mentioned before. terrible mileage. that’s worse than our 587 pete with N14 ISX cummins @ ~40k GVRW.

Offline Flyin6

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #111 on: October 25, 2019, 07:12:11 PM »
Yea, I'm starting to be convinced its a tuning issue. The more you press on the skinny pedal, the more it feels like you are pulling a weight.
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Offline Sammconn

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #112 on: October 25, 2019, 10:13:18 PM »
What about your hokie park brake valve?  Is that leaking?


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That used to be a presidential solution...
I just don't want to wind up missing a digit or limb.  I can sometimes get in a hurry to get results.
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Offline DDS

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #113 on: October 28, 2019, 08:01:03 AM »
That is a beauty

I would be interested if I didn't already have mine

I am having a difficult time not picking up one of these:

Mine just turned 60K & aside from a few issues I had early on, I still love it.

Offline Flyin6

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #114 on: November 01, 2019, 02:07:34 PM »
Playing around with this thing a bit more.

I don't work on it all the time, I have plenty of other things to do, but from time to time I do continue messing with this truck

So, I pulled a good data log and sent that off to Justin at Black Bear Performance. We'll see what he finds out

Meanwhile, I noticed a rumble, almost a vibration that starts being noticable around 60mph and is obvious and making a humming sound at 70. I was thinking while driving in the rain yesterday that that it sure sounded like the front driveshaft was spinning. When I turned off the exit on a wet road I hit the gas some and it did not spin out. That got me thinking. It wouldn't spin out if it was in 4WD...

Today I climbed underneath it and discovered a couple things. Fitst, that new Fomoto oil drain valve is leaking through the threaded body (Its bad!). Secondly, there were drips of transmission fluid around the pan, so that needs addressing and, finally, the front driveshaft was not free spinning. So, yep, it is either in 4WD or the front axle uncoupler is not functioning.

Now that would account for a bunch of the lost performance, being in eternal 4WD with all its associated drag, but not for the total lack of power this vehicle seems to have.

So I continue, pressing ever onward toward eventual ...Victory???
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #115 on: November 01, 2019, 04:49:20 PM »
FIFY
Playing around with this thing a bit more.

I don't work on it all the time, I have plenty of other things to do, but from time to time I do continue messing with this truck

So, I pulled a good data log and sent that off to Justin at Black Bear Performance. We'll see what he finds out

Meanwhile, I noticed a rumble, almost a vibration that starts being noticable around 60mph and is obvious and making a humming sound at 70. I was thinking while driving in the rain yesterday that that it sure sounded like the front driveshaft was spinning. When I turned off the exit on a wet road I hit the gas some and it did not spin out. That got me thinking. It wouldn't spin out if it was in 4WD...

Today I climbed underneath it and discovered a couple things. Fitst, that new Fomoto oil drain valve is leaking through the threaded body (Its bad!). Secondly, there were drips of transmission fluid around the pan, so that needs addressing and, finally, the front driveshaft was not free spinning. So, yep, it is either in 4WD or the front axle uncoupler is not functioning.

Now that would account for a bunch of the lost performance, being in eternal 4WD with all its associated drag, but not for the total lack of power this vehicle seems to have.

So I continue, pressing ever onward toward eventual ...DURAMAX SWAP



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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #116 on: November 01, 2019, 05:52:35 PM »
^^^ Funny Tex!

I changed the oil, first time since the engine semi-overhaul. A couple of rod bolt heads, ring lands and parts of the timing chain clogged the oil pan for awhile, but I flushed it out with the pressure washer and topped it with fresh 75W-90 so it's all good

Actually, I did change the oil, then got after the 4WD thing.

So with the engine off, but electrical power up, (Key on) I switched it from 2WD to 4WD to 2WD a number of times and could hear the transfer case encoder motor whirring each time I hit the button.

So I know that is working. That leaves the possibility that the front axle disconnector motor/assembly is not working or there is something internally wrong with the transfer.

Now, given that I just had that transfer all apart and it gets reassembled in a more or less straight forward manner, I doubt there is anything wrong with it.

Which leaves most of my fingers pointing to the front axle disconnector as a likely culprit. I say that because I have no codes, the encoder motor is working normally, and so is the transfer case selector panel. No flashing lights except for a brief interlude as the thing changes modes, then a comforting solid on the yeller lite is ah' glowin'.

Knowing that I just installed a brand new unit, I doubt that it has failed, which leaves me wiring as a primary culprit. The problem with these front axle disconnector setups is usually just a faulty ground. Those motors ground on the body to frame mount just beneath the hinges of the drivers door. So I yanked that puppy, only to find a factory fresh metal surface, just like everything else I have inspected on this pristine example.

So I am due a continuity check on that wiring bundle connecting that motor, and if that is not it, then there is one more place to go. Something like a TCM which I need to get smart on which will likely also require a GM license ($$$ for nothing) to reset or if needed program a replacement

This raises a basic question:

Who owns my vehicle?

I am pretty sure the title is in my name
And I am darned sure I paid for the thing.
But I cannot access and program any of the computer modules myself. I need a GM supplied licence to unlock MY KUMPUTER! I do not have permission to do it myself. I must ask for, then pay for the right to replace a defective computer which I own.

Am I nutz or is there something wrong with that?
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Offline stlaser

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #117 on: November 02, 2019, 12:04:29 AM »
So don’t you have a king pin 60 front axle collecting dust somewhere? Pretty sure that would be a nice upgrade and ORD I believe makes a fairly complete kit...... you know so the front end can handle the big D when that gets dropped in!  :evil:
Living in the remote north hoping Ken doesn’t bring H up here any time soon…..

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #118 on: November 02, 2019, 08:47:16 AM »
don’t succumb to the peer pressure..

wait. what am i saying. i fully support the swap! hahah

Offline Flyin6

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #119 on: November 02, 2019, 10:51:58 AM »
You people are not helpin'!
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Offline dave945

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #120 on: November 02, 2019, 06:16:01 PM »
Don, don’t listen to them. That 6.0 should run a lot better than you are describing. I say get the tune right, fully powered and running right so you are happy with it.


Then swap in a Duramax and donate the 6.0 to me for the Blazer swap. ;)


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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #121 on: November 03, 2019, 08:17:11 AM »
Don, don’t listen to them. That 6.0 should run a lot better than you are describing. I say get the tune right, fully powered and running right so you are happy with it.


Then swap in a Duramax and donate the 6.0 to me for the Blazer swap. ;)


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Well, I sure am going to go down the road to getting it right. Currently is is almost there, to the point that I am driving it every day almost.

I am currently researching the locked front driveshaft thing.

With my autotrac front case I am not sure if the thing should freewheel in 2H or remain locked.

Because of the amount of disinformation on the net, I could point to either answer.

One thing I have read is that the front axle motor device is highly suspect. You may recall that I replaced mine with an aftermarket piece. I have read several times where folks replacing the stock AC-Delco part with an aftermarket part at one third the price (Me) often suffers from bolting in a faulty unit or one destined to fail shortly.

So it looks like a test is imminent.

So if the front axle is actually remaining locked while in 2H, then the associated drag would account for some of the missing performance, but not all.

Justin will still have to weigh in on the data log I pulled to see what is going on there. Certainly there is something weird enough to cause a lopey cam motor to suddenly idle almost like a stocker. Then in the coming days I will have to determine of the front end pieces are operating as they should.

So, without going crazy speculating, this is where the vehicle is at the moment

Some things that I did do was to just tie the front and rear batteries together for the moment. The front is a standard Interstate battery designed to crank the motor. The rear is a deep cycle made to last and discharge over a long time. With the system I had, the rear battery was dying regularly, but now everything seems to be working just fine.

I got the stereo system dialed in a lot closer and it is delivering great sound, although I am missing all power, speaker and window to the RR door, so some is amiss there. The cooling issue is resolved, but there is still something going on with the climate control motor.

So onward and upward, I'll continue to get after it.
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #122 on: November 04, 2019, 10:18:02 AM »
OK, who was that that built conversion wiring harness kits to install a duramax into the suburban??

I'm just askin' so don't read anything into it!
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Offline JR

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #123 on: November 04, 2019, 11:10:48 AM »
Think the only permissions are needed for the BCM, everything else should be open unless your tuner locked something up.
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #124 on: November 04, 2019, 12:35:56 PM »
Don I don’t think you need aftermarket. You just need the factory parts and they’ll plug right up.

Easiest to find a same year model 2500hd with the duramax and buy a rollover or rear end collison


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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #125 on: November 04, 2019, 03:05:11 PM »
Don I don’t think you need aftermarket. You just need the factory parts and they’ll plug right up.

Easiest to find a same year model 2500hd with the duramax and buy a rollover or rear end collison


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I'm going to start a new thread discussing D-Max conversion of this 2500
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #126 on: November 04, 2019, 08:11:14 PM »
Don I don’t think you need aftermarket. You just need the factory parts and they’ll plug right up.

Easiest to find a same year model 2500hd with the duramax and buy a rollover or rear end collison


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I'm going to start a new thread discussing D-Max conversion of this 2500

i don’t think you’ll find any objection here..

Offline Flyin6

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #127 on: November 11, 2019, 09:16:15 PM »
Just got the following message from BlackBear Performance:


Hi Don,

I believe that a big part of your issue here is the noise that your valve springs are generating.  The PCM is picking up a LOT of detonation/pinging, however I believe that is false knock due to the valve train.  Either that or you are running fuel that is far too low of an octane for the compression increase with the 243 heads (over the stock 317s).  What fuel is this?

Justin
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #128 on: November 12, 2019, 06:08:16 AM »
And the answer to the fuel question?


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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #129 on: November 12, 2019, 06:09:43 AM »
And the answer to the fuel question?


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One way to test that is to head to the local airport and put a few gallons of Av Gas in it.


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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #130 on: November 12, 2019, 08:30:12 AM »
And the answer to the fuel question?


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That was after the second tank of 93, so I'm betting better than 91 octane in the tank at the time of the pull
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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #131 on: November 12, 2019, 08:33:14 AM »
I think it is knock sponsored retarded timing.

If you hammer it as the RPM builds you can feel the power being reduced, like the weight you are pulling is increasing. That is probably caused by increasing knock and the timing being progressively retarded

I was watching vids of 6.0 trucks with a cam and some of those things fly! Mine is the antithesis of that, so something is definitely amiss.
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #132 on: November 12, 2019, 11:50:34 AM »
any way your TPS could be off/sending odd signals to ECM?

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #133 on: November 12, 2019, 02:32:48 PM »
any way your TPS could be off/sending odd signals to ECM?
If that was going on, I think Justin would have picked it up

I think he is on the issue

Now, can he do anything about it???
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Offline JR

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #134 on: November 12, 2019, 02:35:10 PM »
Would be a heck of a time to find out he couldn't.
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #135 on: November 13, 2019, 06:28:38 AM »
Florence speedway in Walton has Sunoco racing fuel.


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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #136 on: November 13, 2019, 09:39:36 AM »
Florence speedway in Walton has Sunoco racing fuel.


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That's crazy
Justin writes the tune for 91 octane
It had two tankfuls of 93
And I am not the first person to run dual valve springs with knock sensors
There is some simple reason for this, and I need to find it
OK, I'm done ;-)
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #137 on: November 13, 2019, 09:43:04 AM »
Understood Don. I just tend to follow a simple process of elimination based on the capabilities I have at hand.

There is the possibility of bad sensors or something else, so I would bump the octane to 105 or so just to data log and use that as process of elimination.  If it still wont run right with 105 then you absolutely know there is an electronics problem of some kind or you have to investigate the valve springs a little further.

It’s a cheap way to start the process and requires no wrenching.


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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #138 on: November 13, 2019, 09:50:19 AM »
Understood Don. I just tend to follow a simple process of elimination based on the capabilities I have at hand.

There is the possibility of bad sensors or something else, so I would bump the octane to 105 or so just to data log and use that as process of elimination.  If it still wont run right with 105 then you absolutely know there is an electronics problem of some kind or you have to investigate the valve springs a little further.

It’s a cheap way to start the process and requires no wrenching.


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...Good advice
Perhaps I could go there
But at the moment it is in some capable hands
Considering that the head swap is a common one, and that the valve springs have been used many, many times, and the cam is well sorted, I think it could come down to an overzealous knock sensor, although not likely as both were new AC-Delco units, along with a new harness.
One thing that had me wondering from the start (literally) is the valve train noise. Remember the sound of a finely adjusted solid lifter engine? Well, this one has that sound. I confess that I love it, but is that normal?
I am running Z06 lifters, and this is the first time I ever did that.
The cam manufacturer recommended them BTW
I installed his moly pushrods, which he also recommended
I am using stock rockers which are great for this application. I used a new Chevrolet performance cam chain
and
I put a coat of wax on the fenders!
So what in the heck could it be?????????????
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Offline TexasRedNeck

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #139 on: November 13, 2019, 09:57:02 AM »
Well if you hear valve train noise then so do the sensors.


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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #140 on: November 13, 2019, 10:59:25 AM »
Well if you hear valve train noise then so do the sensors.


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Still waiting to hear from Justin,
But, I wonder how does one check those?
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Offline EL TATE

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #141 on: November 13, 2019, 12:31:44 PM »
Well if you hear valve train noise then so do the sensors.


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Still waiting to hear from Justin,
But, I wonder how does one check those?

Let me know when you find out. mine has the same noise on a newly remanned motor. Same as yours. knock sensors and harness were replaced on mine but intake manifold warped and had a vacuum leak but I kicked an idiot light right away. it did not have the power issues you're having though. towing my boat I seem to have more power than you're describing and i'm factory everything 6.0L.
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #142 on: November 13, 2019, 12:35:37 PM »
I thought I read somewhere that they could tune out the knock sensors or tone them down.

Justin would know I would guess.

I would try the racing fuel and if its really not knocking but picking up the valve noise, you’ll know because it won’t run any better with the higher octane

Then
Maybe readjust the lash and see if that quiets them down and or replace with singles.

Singles should be good to 6k rpm easy.


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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #143 on: November 13, 2019, 05:06:10 PM »
I thought I read somewhere that they could tune out the knock sensors or tone them down.

Justin would know I would guess.

I would try the racing fuel and if its really not knocking but picking up the valve noise, you’ll know because it won’t run any better with the higher octane

Then
Maybe readjust the lash and see if that quiets them down and or replace with singles.

Singles should be good to 6k rpm easy.


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These springs, dual springs were recommended by the cam grinder, so I'm pretty sure they are OK

Valve train is non adjustable...Stock LS configuration
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Offline Bigdave_185

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #144 on: November 13, 2019, 06:13:46 PM »
Pretty confident in all these recommended parts that don’t run the way you want or think they should.

Seen parts shipped that were packaged wrong before,   


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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #145 on: November 13, 2019, 06:52:06 PM »
Well if you hear valve train noise then so do the sensors.


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You should not hear hyd lifters unless you are adjusting them. Aren't the sensors like a switch?on/off no in between but how the ecm responds should be adjustable. Plus they are in the valley under the intake, not easy to change!

AV gas, I like it!
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #146 on: November 13, 2019, 07:53:28 PM »
These springs, dual springs were recommended by the cam grinder, so I'm pretty sure they are OK
Yeah and Adam Schiff has the county’s best interest at heart.


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« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 10:30:22 PM by Nate »
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #147 on: November 22, 2019, 09:05:51 PM »
I'm getting a little frustrated with all this waiting for a tune. It takes a month maybe longer between extracting a data log, emailing it off, then getting something back.

All in all, I have probably waited more than six months and lost an entire camping season just waiting for something to happen with a tune that will wake up this truck

If this is the way it is going to be, I am either going to have to find a local tuner, learn to tune myself, or abandon this gas motor world for a duramax.

Venting here a little, but this mail order tune thing is just not working for me at all.
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #148 on: November 22, 2019, 09:18:27 PM »
Don,  I hear you.  When you alter that many variables you have to be willing to be patient.  A local tuner of someone who is willing to take Supplemental payment for more attention may make sense..


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Offline wyorunner

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #149 on: November 22, 2019, 09:48:58 PM »
I do not advocate for taking up tuning, that’s one of them thousands of hours things to get right I think. See if the tuner has a fee you can pay for expedited service? It’s winter now, so maybe a smidge more waiting can be tolerated?

 

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