SquareD Part 7 Start it up!

[KensAuto]

...Regan...phsst.

[akraven]

Congrats on getting it running Don!

[TexasRedNeck]

Oh yeah i was an a team fan, and yeah he does resemble Hannibal.

I think I'm more of a Robert Redford/Ronald Regan look alike
No, I haven't been using street pharmaceuticals!

Remember God in Your Youth

12 Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, “I have no delight in them”; 2 before the sun and the light, the moon and the stars are darkened, and clouds return after the rain; 3 in the day that the watchmen of the house tremble, and mighty men stoop, the grinding ones stand idle because they are few, and those who look through windows grow dim;

He's referencing what happends when you grow old Don. Your vision is already suffering......

[Flyin6]

Hmmm...

[Flyin6]

Congrats on getting it running Don!

Thanks Raven

[TexasRedNeck]

Hmmm...

Look at the bright side, you still have all your teeth and thats a major accomplishment in KY....

[Flyin6]

Hmmm...

Look at the bright side, you still have all your teeth and thats a major accomplishment in KY....

True.

The word "Teeth" is actually not often used here!

For some reason we prefer the word "Tooth"

[Flyin6]

So I started it up a bit ago to see if anything changed, and it did!

Now it won't stay idling!

[TexasRedNeck]

Birthing pains, Don.  Did you try bleeding the injectors again?

[Flyin6]

Birthing pains, Don.  Did you try bleeding the injectors again?

No, was just hoping it would magically heal itself

Now where was that 3/4" crows foot???

[Sammconn]

Wow, it runs. Yeah I'm a little late to the party.
Sarge is looking good too!

[OldKooT]

Couple of questions....

Has this engine been run since the rebuild? If not, does it have a new camshaft/lifters? If yes then you need to get it going and break that cam in. It's a flat tappet, likes lots of zinc in the oil and well you know.

To bleed, it's best with two people. Start with the front injector, bump the thing over with it cracked until you get a no bubbles stream of fuel (like bleeding brakes) Then do the next one, and continue this with all of them. If you get lucky somewhere around 4 or 5 it will start running. It "should" clean it's self up and self bleed the rest through the return line. If it does not....I'd start to suspect air entering the system before the injector pump...(easy to check for) Or it's possible the pump Timi is off considerably.

[KensAuto]

I was thinking it might be sucking air pre-electric pumps. The way it started, then progressively got worse until it died led me to that thought.

[cudakidd53]

Nice thing about Diesel, it's either air, fuel or compression..........or, air in the fuel, or no fuel in the compression, or too much fuel in the air......or red dog's hair preventing air into the intake.

[Flyin6]

I think I found something that might be wrong

I placed the fuel filter upstream of the two kennedy pumps. So the fuel filter is seeing about 8psi pressure all the time.

I routed the injector return line to the other inlet port of the fuel filter. That means the injector return line is actually pressurized, and I don't think that is supposed to see pressure at all.

So, I'm going to reroute the injector return line back to the fuel tank, re-bleed, then do another start

And Cam? Old stocker, well broken in...

[JR]

Yep, that could be an issue but 8 psi sounds good.

[OldKooT]

If you have pressure against your return line then that is likely your issue. Simple enough fix should have you up and running.  Now for the bad news....... 8psi is entirely too little fuel pressure. That Injection pump needs about 12psi minimal, some say 18psi.... That will make 180hp-220hp or so. We run our P7100 engines at 25psi under load. Which equates to about 30psi at idle or close. Either your pumps are undersized, or possibly the regulator for the fuel on the back of the injection pump is stuck. You should be seeing 12-18psi at idle at the pump on a P pump engine. That will provide stock HP or a smidgen more. Hope this gives you some direction in which to search for the issue.

[KensAuto]

Norm knows some stuff, it appears. It makes sense..... Don took off the manual pump right?...ICR... Yeah, i could see the manual putting out the higher psi than those kennedies. They are only rated at like 4 psi each. IIRC the manual pump is good for 25-30 when new.

[OldKooT]

one more thing that may or may not be relevant. I once had a P pump irrigation motor that we couldn't get to run much above idle. It acted like it had air all the time. What had happened was the spring in the lift pump had broken resulting in about 6psi.

Anyway in the end, if those pumps can only do 8psi your going to have to rethink the fuel pump issue. FASS Air Dog and all those have made a pretty buck on the P Pumps need for mass amounts of high pressure fuel volume.

Depending how that pump is tuned, you may need more than a OEM lift pump can produce even.

[KensAuto]

I just found this. He took the newer higher volumn lift pump off because the lines were only 5/16 (unless he put it back on later)

http://real-man-truckworks-and-survival.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=458.0;attach=13512;image

[TexasRedNeck]

Where's my popcorn emoji.  I'm learning so much


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[Dawg25385]

You guys and your emoji's...... I'm workin on it!


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[Flyin6]

OK, I think we are on it

I thought the 8psi would be sufficient, guess not

Dang it...a real pump is going to cost some money.

Sounds like I need to reroute the return line like I mentioned, into the fuel filler neck, then plumb in a Fass or AD high pressure lift pump.

[OldKooT]

This unit has some good reviews from folks. http://www.wvodesigns.com/raw-power-wvo-fuel-pump-adjustable-regulator.html The hazard of electric pumps is reliability issues in my opinion. FASS and similar units are not IMHO all that reliable, especially at higher pressures.

The issue with P Pumps is at HP levels up around 500 or higher they need a LOT of fuel system. Most guys shoot for 40psi under load. Most electric pumps including the spendy popular stuff get very hot at those levels.

[Flyin6]

This unit has some good reviews from folks. http://www.wvodesigns.com/raw-power-wvo-fuel-pump-adjustable-regulator.html The hazard of electric pumps is reliability issues in my opinion. FASS and similar units are not IMHO all that reliable, especially at higher pressures.

The issue with P Pumps is at HP levels up around 500 or higher they need a LOT of fuel system. Most guys shoot for 40psi under load. Most electric pumps including the spendy popular stuff get very hot at those levels.

The Air Dog in my Duramax has failed me several times now, and once started leaking somewhere near the farm. On the drive home I lost maybe a 1/4 of my 57 gallon tank leaking away.

I think the Air Dogs are junk now as many times as I have torn mine down...Now I actually keep an extra motor for it on the shelf!

Pitiful...

[TexasRedNeck]

I have two and have had no issues. Knock wood. Other than the fass Class 8 stuff is there another alternative?


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[JR]

Well, there is Fass, PPE, BD and Fuel lab.

Kennedy only has his pumps from the website, so he may be no help. To bad as I'm sure if you discussed your motor with him and the dual 8psi setup should have been fine.

Now I am learning to since I knew the 6BT needed a good lift, but I did not know it needed a hp unit for 400hp.

[Flyin6]

I'm all novice here with the 6BT world. I never imagined I'd need 40-60psi for a 12 valve motor. I knew the VE pumps were cooled only by fuel, so a good flow rate was essential for pump longevity. The Bosch inline P7100 pump I have on Square D is cooled by engine oil, so I was thinking in and around 12-15psi. More about a supply issue than a pressure thing me thought.

Bottom line is I have wired this fuel system up wrong. I have too little pressure to feed my mill and the Kennedy pumps will never get the job done, so they will probably get plumbed into the D-Max system as a second and third backup.

I'll probably purchase the veggie oil pump Norm suggested and tune the motor with that starting around 40 psi and work the 40-65psi range.

The turbo guys said this motor of mine would be in the 600HP range with the turbo and injectors, but never mentioned what pressure the motor required. That is a $500 learning curve right there! Ouch!

[JR]

Surprised that was not in the formula if that important.

[KensAuto]

Learnin some stuff myself, except it's not costing me anything. I vaguely remember testing pressure on one with a no start, but that was a few years back.

[husker77c]

Have you thought about going back to a stock lift pump with an electric inline pusher?   Seems to be a viable option for where your engine sits power wise.    Did you block off the stock pump?  I don't remember the specifics of your engine build.   I've read on some competition diesel sites that people have run the stock lift pump up to 585hp.   I don't think I would run it that high without some help though.   That's like people getting 450hp out of the stock HX35.  It can be done.....once or twice for a dyno run.


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[Flyin6]

Have you thought about going back to a stock lift pump with an electric inline pusher?   Seems to be a viable option for where your engine sits power wise.    Did you block off the stock pump?  I don't remember the specifics of your engine build.   I've read on some competition diesel sites that people have run the stock lift pump up to 585hp.   I don't think I would run it that high without some help though.   That's like people getting 450hp out of the stock HX35.  It can be done.....once or twice for a dyno run.


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I do have the stocker, brand new in fact

But with that tiny 5/16" outlet it looks more suited to my DR-650 motorcycle!

[ceelibs]

Have you thought about going back to a stock lift pump with an electric inline pusher?   Seems to be a viable option for where your engine sits power wise.    Did you block off the stock pump?  I don't remember the specifics of your engine build.   I've read on some competition diesel sites that people have run the stock lift pump up to 585hp.   I don't think I would run it that high without some help though.   That's like people getting 450hp out of the stock HX35.  It can be done.....once or twice for a dyno run.


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I do have the stocker, brand new in fact

But with that tiny 5/16" outlet it looks more suited to my DR-650 motorcycle!

there are tons of trucks running around making great power with only the mechanical lift pump, and its simple as a rock. IMHO I wouldnt bother with any electric pump, esp with Square D being a critical use vehicle....two pennies and all.

[TexasRedNeck]

Ceelibs, very valid point.  Also Don, it may be a matter or pressure over flow.  A smaller diameter outlet (the 5/16 on the stocker) will build more pressure in the same pump with a larger outlet.  The flow is probably more than adequate.  It needs pressure.  Then again, I'm talking concept.  I know nothing of cummins.

[cudakidd53]

Have you thought about going back to a stock lift pump with an electric inline pusher?   Seems to be a viable option for where your engine sits power wise.    Did you block off the stock pump?  I don't remember the specifics of your engine build.   I've read on some competition diesel sites that people have run the stock lift pump up to 585hp.   I don't think I would run it that high without some help though.   That's like people getting 450hp out of the stock HX35.  It can be done.....once or twice for a dyno run.


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I do have the stocker, brand new in fact

But with that tiny 5/16" outlet it looks more suited to my DR-650 motorcycle!

Couldn't that be why is it so small, to maintain the higher pressure required to maintain the appropriate spray pattern of the injectors?  A bigger line allows more volume but actually lowers pressure correct?

[Flyin6]

Remember, we are talking about a lift pump. It is only a device to get the fuel up to the injection pump. The Bosch then crushes the fuel into the higher pressures.

Although I don't have a command of the math of all this, an injection pump starting with a head of 8psi would certainly produce less pressure at the nozzle than a head pressure of 40 psi.

OK, I'll figure out how to get the stock pump (Mechanical) installed and go from there. That and get the return line re-routed.

[OldKooT]

Don.... before you go much further let me give you some considerations.

A stock 2nd Gen fuel delivery system flowed about .58GPM in actual best case scenarios. I won't get into Math other than to say this is a real life situation that math can over complicate. Let me explain what I mean....

A fuel delivery system and a hydraulic system use the same basic rules of math/function. What this equates to is if you wanted to make 650HP continuous you would need via math a 3/4" supply line to your injection pump with a flow speed of about 2FT per second, @ 50psi.  This is assuming your spinning the engine at 4000rpm. I just did the math...

It's accepted and known reality that a flow speed of between 2-4 feet per second is ideal. The variable of 2-4 derives from planned  application. A fuel system designed to work in cold temperatures wants a slower fluid velocity than one that will always be a in a warm climate.

To build a system that could supply 650hp continuously is impractical. The required 3/4 feed line when computed out in reality becomes more in line with 1 1/4" ID needed. This will allow you to allow for loss due to bends and fittings. The pressure requirements would be near or above 50psi, and even then you will need to also address the flow requirements past the injection pump.

But more reality. Your truck can't make 650hp for more than 10-15seconds at best, that's fact. I'd actually be surprised if it could make it that long, if at all. Making 650hp on a dyno for a few seconds and actual use, are two way different realities. And this brings me to the reality of real life fluid design system requirements.

People have made 600hp with 5/16 fuel lines in Cummins trucks on stock lift pumps on a Dyno. That same truck wouldn't likely make a drag strip pass with similar happy results. Let me give you an example...a slightly different but yet similar application.

My wife's Ramcharger: It runs a 3/8 feed line. I built the system to minimize restriction as much as possible. The tank pickup was modified to be 3/8 with a OEM style steel pickup tube in a "trap" The entire system is steel tubing. All fittings are high flow Hydraulic fittings. This feeds into a 2Gen piston lift pump set at 15psi with a 3/8" inlet and discharge fittings. This then feeds the OEM fuel filter (minus the heater) that has modified inlet/outlet passages, and from there goes to the injection pump with a high-flow fitting again in 3/8.  As built and tested at 2500rpm it flows 1.28GPM with a flow velocity of 4.2 ft per second (little too fast actually) It can and does run at about 15psi. At 4000rpm it drops to .62GPM max flow.

How does this system work in reality: I can hold wide open throttle through the 1/4 mile with a drop in fuel pressure down to about 7psi and falling. Pyro temps are right at 1380Degrees at the end of the 1/4 so realistically all done and said...it's a well executed system. I have enough fuel to run wide open as long as one dares in reality. How much power does it make? Well not sure...I don't care. It's at it's limits for cooling the charge air anyway. I would never run a smaller turbo on it as presently tuned, I'd not run a larger one for drive ability reasons, and in the end it's designed to do exactly what it does.

How does this compare to your truck? You have more weight, less gear, a similar sized turbo actually, and less air cooling capacity. In other words your truck will not go wide open for a 1/4 mile most likely. So to put an end to this over complication, consider your situation for reality.

You need enough fuel to feed your monster for under 15 seconds at WOT> I'd wager a 1/2 supply line, your Kennedy pumps pushing and filling a filter, and then a OEM 2nd Gen Cummins mechanical lift pump feeding your injection pump will manage that just fine. Your going to exceed safe EGT's before you suck that system dry I'd wager. If your pump is actually set at those HP levels... your going to exceed safe EGT's before you get out of sec gear.

[KensAuto]

Oofff. Norm made my head hurt.

[rpar86]

To add to what Norm said... (going into physics mode here...).  Reading this Wikipedia article will make your head hurt even more Ken.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli's_principle

This is Bernoulli's principle: As the speed of fluid increases, the pressure decreases. Too much speed (like Norm mentioned 4.2ft/sec) will lower the pressure. So the smaller line will result in more pressure from the lift pump to the injection pump. Of course Don knows all about Bernoulli and how lift is generated by an airfoil :)




I'm not a physics expert, so please excuse me if I said something incorrect. I just remember reading about this when designing an irrigation system at the last house :)

[OldKooT]

Trust me I am no physics expert either. I am just largely a simple minded farmer. 

[Wilbur]

Um......so whatcher sayin' is ya need a *bleep*load a fuel delivered at a *bleep*load of pressure....but if ya suck too much ya need more pressure 'cause the *bleep*load of pressure becomes a small amount of pressure. Is that it?

I think I are an engineer....ha!

I have to say thanks to everyone as I am learning a *bleep*load in this discussion.... ;)

[OldKooT]

Further thought maybe to clarify... in the example of my wife's truck above I could do the following. A larger feed line say 1/2," a remote filter purely for it's usefulness as a surge tank and I could probably extend my hp capabilities considerably. The fact we are dropping pressure clearly shows there is HP being lost.

Reality again sets in: If I increase my fueling I will flow more fuel LoL I will also then shorten the duration in which I can run wide open. Remember my EGT's right now are on the edge if run wide open...I refuse to change the turbo sizing, inter cooler, or anything else as it's as "hot" as any Cummins will be in a functional 4x4 truck now. So... no point in running larger line, which BTW is why I didn't choose that when we built the truck.

These old engines are capable of astounding HP figures. They are still limited by the physics of how much you can cool the exhaust temps before they melt.

one way to look at it.... if Don and I lined up for a race of 5 miles. I will win hands down as he's presently set up. Reason being I can hold WOT for 5 miles. If he tried that I'd pass him when he melts.

[TexasRedNeck]

Trust me I am no physics expert either. I am just largely a simple minded farmer. 

Yeah, like Rob O'Neil was just a ranch guy from Montana.....

[OldKooT]

Would you believe I had to google the Chiefs name?

[KensAuto]

There is nothing simple about some of the **** that comes out of your mouth!! (I mean that in a good way buddy).
You ever thought about meth for the temps? Not durable and failsafe enough? Or just happy with the current power?

[Flyin6]

Well, this was a great little discussion. Actually more of a class than a discussion, but Norm might have just saved the day.

Because of the cost of that pump, and the fact that Sarge is eating up my dwindling supply of cashola, I was not going to be able to purchase a $500 pump for a couple weeks.

What I hear is I should reinstall the new factory lift pump and plump all that business back in.

I don't really want 600HP, I just used that as a lofty target for the turbo and injector guys to build to in unison. I would be perfectly happy with 400HP for use day in and day out with some sprint capability.

I can control EGT with the water/Methanol injection. I can pull a couple hundred degrees off the top with that, and it will be a functioning, semi-automatic part of power production.

Maybe Norm can weigh in, but the plan is to have the water injection turn on at a preset pressure, driven from a Hobbs switch. Not sure what the number is for a 12 valve, so I haven't purchased the switch yet.

Now, I purchased the P-Pump fuel pump for my VE motor before I went crazy and changed to this P-Pump setup. It came with a gasket and a spacer. I believe the spacer was necessary to mount that pump on a VE engine, and no spacer is required to mount it to the later Bosh pump motor...Am I correct there?

I already have 1/2" fuel lines from a sump with very few bends. Just gradual turns from the rubber fuel line. The P-Pump has a dual inlet so it should be able to get plenty of fuel. I'll just need to get the line size increased coming out of the mechanical lift pump, to try and get all that to match up.

So I'm off to the races seeing if I can figure that out.

[KensAuto]

Norm said he tapped his lift pump to 3/8 didn't he?

[Flyin6]

Norm said he tapped his lift pump to 3/8 didn't he?

The inlet will take a 1/2" NPT I'm pretty sure, but the top (Outlet) is smaller. It is set up for a factory 5/16" line, so getting that larger is going to be a trick.

[OldKooT]

Did you get that pump from Hungry Diesel for the VE? If you did.... that's a 14 or 15psi pump, not enough. He changes them to a low pressure spring for the VE. Call him.... but I am sure you can just get a stock 2nd Gen spring, install it, and have the correct pump. I ran 3/8 line to my VE from the pump...what I don't remember is if I used adapter fittings or what LoL  I can look-see in the morning for you.....

[wilsonphil]

I an currently running a 1/2 line from the sump to the mechanical pump, I am running Hungry Diesel modified piston pump and I have a low pressure light from a Gen2 setup and I had a gauge on it when I first installed just to see what I had it was around if I remember correctly.  The only reason I did that was if I ever wanted to run a turned up Ppump motor I already had everything in place.  But I am running a VE setup right now.

1.  P/N 4988747 pump "unmodified"
2.  P/N 3914753 Fuel Tube  from pump to fitler housing
3.  P/N 3914284  Spacer
4.  P/N 3963983  sealing washer
5.  P/N ???????  mounting gaskets 2ea cant find the bag!!

BTW everything was made in China from Cummins.