Mike's AR-10 Build

[cudakidd53]

Okay, I've been tossing around the idea of putting together one from a smorgasbord of available parts and all, but need some help/guidance and suggestions.  Will be using a Spikes Tactical billet lower & upper.

-Accepts any AR style Bolt Carrier, Bolt & Barrel.
-Barrel Nut: SR25 or DPMS (? Difference of the two?)
-Handguard Rail Height: SR25, DPMS High, Armalite AR10 (? How will suitable ones be identified?)
-Trigger Group: Any AR compatible trigger (? Anti-rotation pins etc. too?)

So, some barrels come without a gas block - what's the best option(s) for a barrel without one? Gas tubes?  My desire is a top quality barrel to try and maximize accuracy etc. and I'm leaning towards 18" for a balance between that and maneuverability. 

Stock and buffer tube - looking for telescoping over a dedicated marksman style - I'm assuming AR15 aren't compatible (especially buffer, but are other stock parts different too?

Is this something I should undertake as an assembly "virgin" ie; different/more complex vs. AR15?

I have no set schedule on this as it'll be "One piece at a time"......though not a Johnny Cash style build......I hope I don't start coming across gun parts at work! :o

Looking forward to the exchanges- DOTing and overall banter this will elicit!

[TexasRedNeck]

Bartlein or Noveske barrel would be my suggestion along with the giessele DMR trigger. Other than that the rest is superfluous.


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[cudakidd53]

Hey TRN, does Noveske make a .308 barrel?  Couldn't find any .308 on their site -

[stlaser]

On the hand guard height do yourself a favor & call Midwest ind & let them tell you what they make. There are about 5 (my last count I know of) different heights.....

Adjustable gas block is a must..

& my last suggestion is buy a complete upper assembled with bcg.

[cudakidd53]

Another question TRN - at Bartlein, how would I go about having them make a barrel for an AR10 - I wouldn't know what to ask for as it appears that everything is made to order custom, not sure about is they "finish" like salt nitride bath etc.

Shawn, adjustable gas block on a "non suppressed" rifle and without a piston?

As I've mentioned, my knowledge/experience base with building something like this is very shallow- LOL!

[KensAuto]

Must be in the air. I personally will be buying a complete upper and milling an 80 lower. The one I'm leaning towards is a Juggernaut.

[stlaser]

Another question TRN - at Bartlein, how would I go about having them make a barrel for an AR10 - I wouldn't know what to ask for as it appears that everything is made to order custom, not sure about is they "finish" like salt nitride bath etc.

Shawn, adjustable gas block on a "non suppressed" rifle and without a piston?

As I've mentioned, my knowledge/experience base with building something like this is very shallow- LOL!

The AR-15 designed system is over gassed in all reality, most function just fine w/o an adjustable gas block. A lot of guys will run heavy buffers etc to compensate for any slight issues. If you suppress an AR-15 or run it FA then you see those issues increase or become more apparent. So then we step up to a much higher pressure cartridge in the AR-10 which makes that same style "design" system show its attitude sooner. Do yourself a favor & order the adjustable gas block if you decide to build your own upper. They aren't hard to dial in if you run the same ammo, realize my Ruger has two gas settings on it from the factory as well, so apparently that was their work around on the different ammo issues.....

[TexasRedNeck]

You can call Bartlein directly or, If it were me, I would call Moon at GA Precision and have him build you a barrel with extension and match the bolt.  Or just send him your upper and have him put it together.  The trigger and the barrel/bolt are what makes an accurate weapon.  GA builds a 3/8 inch MOA or better 308.  I've seen it.  I got my ass kicked by a San Antonio PD SWAT team member who ran a GA Precision AR10 against my GA Precision Remy 700 Bolt gun.

Once you run an uber accurate AR10, you'll never go back to anything else under 700 meters.

[cudakidd53]

You can call Bartlein directly or, If it were me, I would call Moon at GA Precision and have him build you a barrel with extension and match the bolt.  Or just send him your upper and have him put it together.  The trigger and the barrel/bolt are what makes an accurate weapon.  GA builds a 3/8 inch MOA or better 308.  I've seen it.  I got my ass kicked by a San Antonio PD SWAT team member who ran a GA Precision AR10 against my GA Precision Remy 700 Bolt gun.

Once you run an uber accurate AR10, you'll never go back to anything else under 700 meters.

Thanks!  That's the type of information I need - I did look at GA Precision via the Bartlein website; interesting how bad many sites are for overall information!  GA Precision's just doesn't play nice with tablet platforms!

Keep those cards and letters coming.......(old quote there!)

[TexasRedNeck]

Yeah. It was hilarious. We were in a 60 man competition.  We got to the 500yd mover stage and setup one by one on the back of an 18 wheeler flatbed. I was about 45th or so and no one had run the bell in the mover more than 7-8 times down and back. I ripped off 11 hits threw the bolt back and grinned. Homeboy steps up and rips off 15 with the AR-10. I could beat him on everything outside 700 meters but as I learned very few competitions I've been in had m very many stages with shots beyond 800.


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[cudakidd53]

Hey Charles-

FYI- Moon has left GA Precision and opened his own shop called Crescent Customs; I've initiated contact with him via email regarding assembling an finished upper using my supplied upper receiver.

Anyone have recommendations for an appropriate 30 cal. muzzle break/flash suppressor?  Oh, how I wish my state was one of the "enlightened" ones that allowed a true suppressor! >:(

[BobbyB]

Hey Charles-

FYI- Moon has left GA Precision and opened his own shop called Crescent Customs; I've initiated contact with him via email regarding assembling an finished upper using my supplied upper receiver.

Anyone have recommendations for an appropriate 30 cal. muzzle break/flash suppressor?  Oh, how I wish my state was one of the "enlightened" ones that allowed a true suppressor! >:(

Do you want a brake OR a flash suppressor?

LOUD noises and big flash, OR small flash, still relatively loud.

[TexasRedNeck]

Muzzle brakes make enemies on the firing line and suppressors make friends


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[cudakidd53]

Bobby and Charles:  looking for something that counters muzzle rise for a quicker follow-up shot (usually listed as a flash suppressor?)

[TexasRedNeck]

A break directs and controls gas to reduce or redirect recoil.

They are loud, but effective.  I'm guessing IL is not a suppressor friendly state?

Here is a bill that is being worked

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/BillStatus.asp?DocNum=433&GAID=13&DocTypeID=HB&LegId=84796&SessionID=88

You could get a break that will accept a suppresor and hope the bill gets passed.

https://thunderbeastarms.com/products/ultra-5

[cudakidd53]

Great option there TRN!  I can always hope it'll pass, but seems as likely as Ken's girlfriend addressing the opening session of the NRA.........one can always dream!   ;)

[TexasRedNeck]

I have two TB suppressors and they maintain accuracy very very well. Minimal POI shift too. Let's hope IL will pass something that makes sense.


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[BobbyB]

Bobby and Charles:  looking for something that counters muzzle rise for a quicker follow-up shot (usually listed as a flash suppressor?)

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCMGUNFIGHTER-Compensator-MOD-1-7-62-300-black-p/bcm-gfc-mod-1-762.htm

[cudakidd53]

It's here!

[cudakidd53]

Hey there Charles- GA Precision is no longer taking any work for semi-autos!  Only doing their own GAR-10, so not sure where else to turn for something of similar quality.

[TexasRedNeck]

I guess its been a while since I've talked to those guys.

Moon built two rifles for me (bolt action)  If he says he can build your AR upper, I would trust him.

GAP is getting a cult following now and I guess they can afford to turn down work.

Here is a survey of the top 50 precision rifle competitors in the country and what they use.  Might be a good place to start. 

[Dawg25385]

What about the Surefire socom for the brake? Nice brake, and you can screw a can on later if able.

[BobbyB]

Griffin Armament has good muzzle devices.

https://www.griffinarmament.com/category-s/1833.htm?searching=Y&sort=5&cat=1833&show=30&page=1

30SD:
https://www.griffinarmament.com/30SD-Muzzle-Devices-p/xhp30sd.htm

Taper Mount (30 cal)
https://www.griffinarmament.com/Taper-Mount-Flash-Suppressor-p/tmfs.htm

OTB (30 cal)
https://www.griffinarmament.com/product-p/otbmd.htm



EDIT:

Ok Cuda, I was thinking about this at work this morning during a lull. Have you contacted Justin at Integrity? They might be able to put something together for you using your upper, as they offer these barrel selections. Plus with you being a previous customer you can probably work out a deal.

http://www.customar15.net/shop/ar-15-upper-receivers/bolt-carrier-group-and-parts/black-hole-weaponry-308-barrel-bcm-gunfighter-package/

http://www.customar15.net/shop/ar-15-upper-receivers/barrels-ar-15-upper-receivers/black-hole-weaponry-16%E2%80%B3-match-barrel-lt-mid-308/

http://www.customar15.net/shop/ar-15-upper-receivers/barrels-ar-15-upper-receivers/black-hole-weaponry-20%E2%80%B3-match-barrel-std-rifle-308/

Plus the BCGs and etc:

http://www.customar15.net/shop/ar-15-upper-receivers/bolt-carrier-group-and-parts/aero-precision-308-7-62-bcg-w-forward-assist-complete-phosphate/

http://www.customar15.net/shop/ar-15-upper-receivers/bolt-carrier-group-and-parts/bcmvltor-gunfighter-charging-handle-7-62-308-mod-3-large-latch/

[cudakidd53]

Good idea there Bobby!  I did just refer my brother to them for an M4 yesterday- I've not really noticed them doing anything in .308 when I've cruised their site.  I'll shoot them an email and inquire!  Nice part is that they can ship a finished upper to me direct!

[BobbyB]

Good idea there Bobby!  I did just refer my brother to them for an M4 yesterday- I've not really noticed them doing anything in .308 when I've cruised their site.  I'll shoot them an email and inquire!  Nice part is that they can ship a finished upper to me direct!

I copied and pasted most of the 308 stuff i saw on their site, and they do say in one of their disclaimer things that if you don't see a configuration you want, call and they MIGHT be able to do it. So it's worth a shot (pun wasn't intended...).

As for your handguard, measure the tang, just above where the charging handle sits when it's forward. Call Midwest Industries and see what they have. If they have something check it out on their site, and then drive the short drive north over the border and pick it up.

[cudakidd53]

Coming up empty on all of TRN's suggested sources as well as Bobby's buddy at Integrity Arms, so I came across what I hope is another option and wanted to know if anyone has any information about this company- Kreiger Barrels in Richfield, WI?  From their website, their shortest barrel is 20" so longer than my desired 18" plan - from those of you with far more experience than I with the AR10 platform, how much will those extra 2" (4 more than my AR15) effect agility of motion with the weapon in an "competition" requiring movement, and close quarter settings?

I plan on contacting them at some point, once I know and have assembled all the parts to complete an upper, as they'll do final assembly etc. with my supplied parts as well as fitting of bolt etc to the barrel and extension.

Any insight on Kreiger is much appreciated-

Mike

[stlaser]

I've heard of them but Bobby is probably a second cousin or something, maybe even Nate!

What the end use for the gun? 20" is getting pretty long for close quarters anything in my limited opinion......

[cudakidd53]

That's my, unqualified thought as well- I figure I'll call them to see if there's any possibility of them making it 18" once I figure out and assemble all the "parts" they'll require.  They want a stripped bolt to "match" to the barrel extension/lugs etc. without ejector parts etc.  I have no clue how to go about taking one apart that's been "staked" so I could use some insights there for sure.

With ALL the parts out there, I'm in need of a "list" of what I really need-  I know I'll need: adjustable gas block, handguard and appropriate barrel nut (or will Krieger supply?), correct length gas tube, bolt and carrier and compensator.

What am I missing, overlooking?

[Sammconn]

Have you actually talked to anyone there?
They may be able to assemble the parts as well, as in have them, I'm not sure.
I think they likely would shorten the barrel as well, they do make them.

I have heard of them, but that it all.

[cudakidd53]

Have you actually talked to anyone there?
They may be able to assemble the parts as well, as in have them, I'm not sure.
I think they likely would shorten the barrel as well, they do make them.

I have heard of them, but that it all.

All that I've read on their site stated they'd assemble from supplied parts.....they make, fit and finish barrels and "will" assemble upper, but all they sell is machine services, barrels (some finishing like bead blast) etc. and only list 20" as their shortest......will call before Fall as I squirrel away stuff.....money etc.

[stlaser]

Did you already but the stripped upper? May be easier to buy a complete upper assembled.....

[cudakidd53]

Did you already but the stripped upper? May be easier to buy a complete upper assembled.....

It won't have a "highly" accurate barrel then- :(

[stlaser]

So no one assembles a complete upper that is "highly" accurate? ???

I guess what I was thinking was you were throwing a wrench in it by wanting to supply the stripped upper. Surely, someone is building an accurate complete upper that would fit your definition of such.......

[cudakidd53]

That initial company that TRN suggested does, but is proprietary to their complete weapon!  They no longer do any semi-auto work due to the success of theirs own platform.......so I'm trying to get close to what they used to do-

[stlaser]

That initial company that TRN suggested does, but is proprietary to their complete weapon!  They no longer do any semi-auto work due to the success of theirs own platform.......so I'm trying to get close to what they used to do-

I'd say just buy theirs and sell your upper & lower or keep yours for a not so accurate long distant version.....

[TexasRedNeck]

Krieger makes good barrels too.  I wouldn't be afraid of a 20 inch on a 7.62. But it would t be my go to weapon for room clearing either. 


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[KensAuto]

Accuracy, or room clearing. You want a "do it all" gun?

This is what I ended up with. Only time will tell if it's accurate (I'm hoping for a 6-800 yard gun)



This place is in Scottsdale, and they had all the parts in stock, built it, test fired, and shipped to me in 2 days.
...veriforce tactical.....small company.

[cudakidd53]

Ahhhhhh, Ken, ya broke it already? How long is the barrel- 18" or 20"?

[KensAuto]

18".
I'm finishing up the lower today (cerakote), and was going to shoot it tomorrow, but got to thinking to myself..."hey, ken, you don't have any mags for a 308". lol

[cudakidd53]

Single shot, clean, single shot.....break in!

[KensAuto]

I don't know if I have the patience to "properly" break in a barrel.

You think running 2-100 round drums through it would do the trick?

[BobbyB]

Coming up empty on all of TRN's suggested sources as well as Bobby's buddy at Integrity Arms, so I came across what I hope is another option and wanted to know if anyone has any information about this company- Kreiger Barrels in Richfield, WI?  From their website, their shortest barrel is 20" so longer than my desired 18" plan - from those of you with far more experience than I with the AR10 platform, how much will those extra 2" (4 more than my AR15) effect agility of motion with the weapon in an "competition" requiring movement, and close quarter settings?

I plan on contacting them at some point, once I know and have assembled all the parts to complete an upper, as they'll do final assembly etc. with my supplied parts as well as fitting of bolt etc to the barrel and extension.

Any insight on Kreiger is much appreciated-

Mike

I actually don't know the guy at Integrity. I was helping a buddy look for parts and saw their web site, and gave the guy a call, that's the limit of my interaction with Integrity. The fact it's a small Vet run business is just a bonus. Kreiger has a good, some might say great rep in the precision rifle scene. So if you get one, then you'll have a great barrel.

I've heard of them but Bobby is probably a second cousin or something, maybe even Nate!

What the end use for the gun? 20" is getting pretty long for close quarters anything in my limited opinion......

Richland is a few hours south of me. You can swing a 20" in CQB, it's not the more preferred length, but it'll work. But as you want this for more precision than CQB...

That's my, unqualified thought as well- I figure I'll call them to see if there's any possibility of them making it 18" once I figure out and assemble all the "parts" they'll require.  They want a stripped bolt to "match" to the barrel extension/lugs etc. without ejector parts etc.  I have no clue how to go about taking one apart that's been "staked" so I could use some insights there for sure.

With ALL the parts out there, I'm in need of a "list" of what I really need-  I know I'll need: adjustable gas block, handguard and appropriate barrel nut (or will Krieger supply?), correct length gas tube, bolt and carrier and compensator.

What am I missing, overlooking?

You aren't unstaking anything. You only need to send them the actual bolt, minus the extractor. That's the part in front of the BCG that moves in and out and the firing pin protrudes from. They will headspace that with the barrel. No need to worry about the BCG.

It won't have a "highly" accurate barrel then- :(

I was thinking about this, and just what I thought might work.

BARREL
1. Yes it says out of stock but keep watching for it to reappear, also requires a lo-pro gas block, but it's not adjustable, and don't think one is made for it.
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/barrel-parts/rifle-barrels/308-ar-sass-barrel-prod54489.aspx?avs%7cCartridge_1=CUU_7xzzx62+mm+NATO

2. Pricey but a good choice.
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/barrel-parts/rifle-barrels/308-ar-chrome-lined-barrels-prod80214.aspx?avs%7cCartridge_1=CUU_7xzzx62+mm+NATO

HANDGUARD
I keep mentioning Midwest Industries... Well they are just over the border from you, so you could bring your upper in and barrel assuming you have one and see what will work for you, in their store.

1. Just one I picked at random.
https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=1209

2. Their whole 308 selection
https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=189

MUZZLE DEVICE
You'll need to decide whether you want a flash hider or muzzle brake. Personally, I'd go flash hider, but I'd rather have a subdued flash (somewhat) and deal with some muzzle movement, as opposed to bigger flash and loud concussive blast. Your thoughts on the matter will differ.

As for a list for you, (budget dictates...)

Upper/lower - Already own
Barrel - Search in progress
 - Gas tube - Need to know length
 - Gas block - Need to know barrel profile
Handguard - Most might have the necessary barrel nut, then there's pic rails, MLOK, Keymod, Keymod - A.....
Trigger - If you want a certain trigger, be it light weight or etc
Buttstock - Collapsible or fixed.
Optics - What range do you plan on using this? Close - mid? Close - Far? A mix of ranges?


Feel free to send me a PM if you have more questions, need an opinion, or just want to insult me. I usually reply relatively fast.

[KensAuto]

That second one looks really close to what I have, except for the chrome part.....heck, maybe they all look like that for all I know.
I'm just along for the ride hoping to learn some things.

http://ballisticadvantage.com/18-inch-308-gov-mid-cmv-modern-barrel.html

[BobbyB]

Black hole Weaponry (308 barrels)
http://www.shop.blackholeweaponry.com/308-Win-308B-caliber-16-length-AR10-308-16.htm

16"
http://www.shop.blackholeweaponry.com/308-Win-308B-caliber-16-length-AR10-308-16.htm

18"
http://www.shop.blackholeweaponry.com/308-Win-308B-caliber-18-length-AR10-308-18.htm

Rainer Arms (308 barrels)

18"
https://www.rainierarms.com/barrels/308-7-62/18

Ballistic Advantage (308 barrels)

18"
http://ballisticadvantage.com/ar-parts/ar-barrels/ar308.html?barrel_length=35


I haven't heard of Ballistic Advantage before, I did a google search for 18" 308 AR10 barrels. So maybe someone else can chime in.

[stlaser]

Dumb question maybe but other than TRN stating the trigger (which is understandable), the barrel (again understandable), & the bolt make the accuracy of the rifle. My question is this, if the bolt is head spaced accordingly on a semi auto what else is there to do to make it more accurate? When I built mine I had it head spaced by a local old school gun smith for both .308 & also 7.62 x 51 this was the only part of the build I did not do myself.

I would also think precision machined upper & lower receivers (to mate precisely) would also be part of the equation. If so then it kinda shoots the op's idea in the rear as he is supplying those & the next question are they good enough? I know nothing of them just asking obvious questions here so please don't be offended.

Also ammo was never mentioned although we know TRN would be reloading his own as would any shooter trying to get the highest accuracy from his rifle.

I would also think the weight of the buffer would also affect the accuracy, I personally used heavy buffers (out of Ohio) on mine. Now that I mention it I think he did gun work as well on 308's & you may want to look him up as he was fairly well regarded.

[TexasRedNeck]

In my uneducated opinion at the moment the round is fired is all that matters. Repeatability is the operative word. If the chamber is exact and the bolt face and lugs are exactly perpendicular to within .001, and your anmo is repeatable ( little variation between rounds) then the limitations of accuracy are the nut behind the gun. Which is why I advise the trigger which means you create less jerking and any movements are repeatable. 

As long as the upper itself is machined true , thread for barrel nut etc, most of the rest is cosmetic.

As for ammo, most ARs won't be accurate enough to warrant extreme accuracy hand loads. FGMM 175 is the correct round to buy.


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[stlaser]

So with all that stated a competent gunsmith should be able to perform the work. From a machinist standpoint .001 is SLOP........

[BobbyB]

If you get good consistent lock up, along with quality ammo; like TRN said 175 grn or 168 grn FGMM, quality barrel and free-float it, you'll have good accuracy. In reality the rifle will perform, it's the shooter that will make the difference.

You can have 2 rifles, exactly the same but a good shooter and a fair shooter.. That's where you'll see the big differences.

[stlaser]

I guess where I was going with this is he wants a highly accurate rifle for this build & the big players are all not an option for one reason or another. So the reality is he should be able to buy quality parts and have a competent gunsmith assemble & be gtg.

[BobbyB]

I guess where I was going with this is he wants a highly accurate rifle for this build & the big players are all not an option for one reason or another. So the reality is he should be able to buy quality parts and have a competent gunsmith assemble & be gtg.

Yes.