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Author Topic: SquareD Part 5: The build continues and gets more aggressive  (Read 420098 times)

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Offline streetrodchev

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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #200 on: November 17, 2014, 09:41:26 AM »
Not sure if you know, your Dana 60 will have 35 spline inners already.  Dodge went to the smaller inner shafts in '94 when they went to the coil spring suspension.

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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #201 on: November 17, 2014, 12:49:30 PM »
Not sure if you know, your Dana 60 will have 35 spline inners already.  Dodge went to the smaller inner shafts in '94 when they went to the coil spring suspension.
I didn't know until a few days ago, when Tate reminded me. He's from Randy's Ring and Pinion, a moderator here and on top of things!
What we decided to do for now was keep the stocker inner (long) axles, and add new joints along with the 35 spline forged outers to fit Randy's super strong hubs. Later on, I might add in the upgraded inner axles.
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Offline Armalite

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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #202 on: November 19, 2014, 12:32:45 PM »
Wow, a lot to read, but I finally got caught up!  Not much input other than I love the way the truck is looking and the progress you've made so far.  Keep it up Chief...   ;D

Offline Armalite

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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #203 on: November 19, 2014, 12:34:22 PM »
Looking good... 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 09:41:34 AM by Armalite »

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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #204 on: November 19, 2014, 12:41:27 PM »
Ash,

There you are!

Hey, I know you won't leave that Dodge alone

So

How's about a Ash build thread on her?

You already did a bunch of stuff, so let's see it in your own thread where we can track it's and your progress!

Yea, I know about the Chevy. Someone got a deal!
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Offline Sammconn

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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #205 on: November 19, 2014, 12:45:18 PM »
Nice looking rig there Ash. Are you planning to go all out with it like you did the dmax?
I just don't want to wind up missing a digit or limb.  I can sometimes get in a hurry to get results.
Sam

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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #206 on: November 19, 2014, 05:13:51 PM »
OK, back to squareness

Another build day, although today will look more like a build down rather than a build up day.

We are going to make Tate happy today.

First, I went over to Randy's newest warehouse in Florence only 20 minutes away. There I both picked up my parts, new Spicer joints and new forged 35 spline stub axles and met Mike the manager of that place. I'll no doubt be seeing him a lot in the years to come.

Before all that I wanted to brand the truck with the web site, so I had a vinyl decal, actually, decals made. They work well, but with only 2" letters, I am not happy. Further the font I picked looks totally girly, so it will be short lived while I man up the next set.

Here's the first iteration:
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #207 on: November 19, 2014, 05:16:36 PM »
Gotta get some WW2 Armee letterin'
Maybe have Bobby come down and spray it on and overspray some things!

OK, the next thing was to get the front axle broken down and removed so I can take it over to the shop in the morrow to get that locker installed.

Here's what it looked like before I started
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #208 on: November 19, 2014, 05:18:18 PM »
With the weight off the springs, they drooped a bunch (That's a good thing)

This will define how long the shock needs to be, and will be a good place to take a measurement for the limit strap this suspension will soon have.
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #209 on: November 19, 2014, 05:27:22 PM »
As always, when this all goes back together it will not look like this exactly. A lot of stuff is going to get upgraded.

The spring plates which you may recall were heavily rusted and restored will go bye-bye. In their place will be some Ruff-Stuff plates with adjustable sway bar link mounts. Those will be accompanied by a new Addco Sway bar of 1 1/8" to augument the rear sway bar. I will also add some urethane bump stops and finally sort out the shocks and get something good in there to control all that weight should things get frisky

So after some wrenchin' the axle gave way and is now in the ready mode to be loaded onto the trailer tomorrow for the short drive to the shop
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 05:27:54 PM by Flyin6 »
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #210 on: November 19, 2014, 05:28:42 PM »
Looks a little empty up there once again
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #211 on: November 19, 2014, 05:31:38 PM »
I have learned that Dodge offered a pretty robust Dana 60 in these 1st gen trucks. They are all the way up to a 35 spline inner (Huge) axle which they attached to smaller 30 spline outer axles.

A quick call to Tate and he made all of that much better. I will now have matching 35 spline outer shafts as well and those will be fitted to his ultra HD hubs which replace the warn units which are known to fail.
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #212 on: November 19, 2014, 05:33:11 PM »
Just look how much larger the 35 spline shafts from Randy's are compared to the stock stuff:
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #213 on: November 19, 2014, 05:33:49 PM »
And forged from 4340 steels!
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #214 on: November 19, 2014, 05:34:33 PM »
And that, boys and girls is the end of a short build day 187
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Offline cudakidd53

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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #215 on: November 19, 2014, 07:12:20 PM »
Yea, girly font- bummer, everything else about it looks good!

Big difference in axles for sure, but the stockers weren't that whimpy looking!  Kinda like killing haji with a 30-06 or a .50 Cal Barrett............really dead or mushy parts........still dead!

I'm start un to think you hang pictures in the house for the Frau with a 3lb maul....... ::)
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #216 on: November 19, 2014, 07:38:35 PM »
Here are examples of the fonts I want to use, however none of the vinyl decal folks offer it.
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Offline KensAuto

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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #217 on: November 19, 2014, 08:54:38 PM »
You would think someone would have those. Might have to look outside of Kintucky, where they teach literature. hahaha


Have you tried this place Don? On their site, they even except your own "artwork"....kinda looks as tho they do everything.
http://www.signarama.com/home
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 09:03:22 PM by KensAuto »
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #218 on: November 19, 2014, 09:06:09 PM »
You would think someone would have those. Might have to look outside of Kintucky, where they teach literature. hahaha


Have you tried this place Don? On their site, they even except your own "artwork"....kinda looks as tho they do everything.
http://www.signarama.com/home
Found em bro!
Already ordered them plus a bunch of other decals like "diesel" and "Max press 40" and things like that. Cheaper too and the font used was called....Army!
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #219 on: November 19, 2014, 09:07:31 PM »
Been looking for an hour for the backing plates or dust shields for the front brakes. No can find! GRRRRRR!

Mine are bent up and thin from rust. Yep, I reconditioned them, but they really need to be replaced
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Offline Sammconn

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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #220 on: November 19, 2014, 09:16:44 PM »
Yeah, too bad about the font. At least you've found one now, and now you know what size you need. Wow that front end is really empty looking.
Any word on the transmission woes?
I just don't want to wind up missing a digit or limb.  I can sometimes get in a hurry to get results.
Sam

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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #221 on: November 20, 2014, 07:42:19 AM »
Yeah, too bad about the font. At least you've found one now, and now you know what size you need. Wow that front end is really empty looking.
Any word on the transmission woes?
Got a cool looking "banner" coming in a week or so, that looks proper to this project.

The transmission is a quandary for me.
It has presented some obstacles that are proving to be beyond my scope and knowledge. Granted I can't do some things...Although I am a bit of a study of nuclear engineering and physics from days past, I could not operate a fission power station. Nor could I predict economic trends for some wall street firm.

But I see the rebuilding of this transmission as something that a regular guy with some toolage could tackle.

So on one hand, I could take it to the local trans shop, plunk down $650 and it would get done.

But having done that, I wouldn't have documented it's overhaul

If I continue to try and build it myself, and get it to come in within clearances, then I think it would be really cool to essentially have done most things on this truck myself.

Obviously, I purchased the motor already built, but that was only because I just so happened to have stumbled across it while it was being overhauled by a professional who completed the deal by delivering me a completed 6BT.

So my plan is as follows:
I plan to overhaul the other sections of the transmission and get them done. Hopefully, I will find no more issues and it will fit back together. During that time, I hope to figure out why the OD section and the low/reverse sections are out and fix them.

I mean, I feel as though I can do it, but I also feel that I need to take my time to do it right. In the mean time, there is nothing wrong with doing the front axle and the suspension and other things that are better done now without the extra ton of pig iron sitting in the way.
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Offline JR

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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #222 on: November 20, 2014, 02:39:58 PM »
Looking good Don. Randy must be very happy with all the "business" you give him.

Like the military type lettering, just fits.

Idea for the tranny, why not go to a local shop when they rebuild a similar tranny and watch? You might see that "oh thats it" and find you issue.
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #223 on: November 20, 2014, 08:51:31 PM »
OK, here's tonight's update:
Today we were supposed to carry the axle housing up to Tommy's to get that project moving forward.
However, Mr. Tommy is flat on his posterior with a mega cold. He even told me don't even think about bring it over tomorrow either, instead call first and shoot for a Saturday delivery!
Okey-Doke, Front axle: On hold!

So not to be discouraged, I worked on that transmission for hours today and I believe I made some headway.

First of all, I got that rear band servo built up and installed.
It is a precision steel unit replacing a spindly aluminum piston which apparently is a known failure point, especially when one turns up the pressure as I am planning to do.

Here's the hole in the case where it will reside:
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #224 on: November 20, 2014, 08:53:11 PM »
The part only costs $30 something and is well made

It utilizes the factory springs and retainers
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #225 on: November 20, 2014, 08:54:12 PM »
After the build up and a liberal coating of assembly lube
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #226 on: November 20, 2014, 08:58:22 PM »
Next it is carefully wiggled and "Screwed" into the bore paying attention not to damage the flange style seal
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #227 on: November 20, 2014, 09:03:00 PM »
Getting ever closer!

Getting back to that pesky reverse/low clutch pack I had several problems from before. First, I could not get the piston to slide into the bore and over the inner seal to save my life. This time I coated it with assembly lube and pushed like I was going for gold...I won!

Secondly, you may recall that I was coming up with way too much clearance so to solve that I simply added an old steel onto the outside of the reaction plate and snapped the wavy snap ring into place. I was rewarded with a clearance right at .100"
The desired clearance is from .082" to .151" so I am walking the dog in the low-middle range, good enough.

That clutch pack is now literally "In the bag!"
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #228 on: November 20, 2014, 09:04:24 PM »
Riding the crest of that wave of success, I pressed on.

Next the direct clutch pack came into view
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #229 on: November 20, 2014, 09:05:10 PM »
A couple snap rings later and it, too, was in pieces
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #230 on: November 20, 2014, 09:07:30 PM »
The shaft and gear is one place that is placed under severe stresses and the aftermarket answers the problem with an exotic and very expensive part. Of course, with reliability uttermost with this square D project, I shelled out the coin.

Here are the stock and billet parts side by side:
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #231 on: November 20, 2014, 09:09:08 PM »
The old part still had the piston in place, but that critter was cleaned up, new seals installed, then it was mated to the new billet shaft and gear

This is one nice part
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #232 on: November 20, 2014, 09:10:23 PM »
And here is the piston reinstalled
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #233 on: November 20, 2014, 09:11:20 PM »
New seals were installed onto the shaft
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #234 on: November 20, 2014, 09:12:28 PM »
Then the two parts were remated
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #235 on: November 20, 2014, 09:13:39 PM »
The old clutches were fine, but the steels definitely showed some uneven wear patterns. Not all that bad though
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #236 on: November 20, 2014, 09:18:30 PM »
The factory uses 4 clutches and 4 steels. I went up to 6 clutches and 6 steels for a 50% increase in clamping area. I had to play around with the pressure plate and reaction plates though, ending up with a pressure plate that went from .170" thick down to one that was .086"

After doing all that I checked clearances and came in at .038"  The book called for .025" to .045", favoring the lower number. Oddly, RevMax wanted something like .080"- to around .100" but I found that to be an impossibility with running 6 clutches and steels! Weird that they call for six of each, and additional clearances which is impossible with the A518 parts.

After all that, this clutch assembly was also completed and in the bag!
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #237 on: November 20, 2014, 09:21:00 PM »
A colonel Sanders Chicken pot-pie arrived just as I was getting started on the final clutch unit. This last assembly will employ a bunch of the special parts to include this uber expensive billet main shaft along with some steel 5 pinion gear-train parts.

The pot pie won out and this concluded build day 188!
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #238 on: November 22, 2014, 11:08:46 AM »
This is now build day 189. Basically a continuation of the last trans build day.

But something is becoming painfully obvious to me. This transmission is beyond the scope of the normal guy to assemble. Sure I can bolt it all together, but it is not exact. It is not precise, it is only close in one area and out in many others. Yes all the parts are fitting, but I don't have a reaction plate in the direct clutch. I can't get the clearances to come in in the OD unit. The only clearance I do have I is questionable as it changes as I squeeze oil out from between clutches and steels and then am I actually compressing a spring.
The help I have gotten from RevMax well, hasn't helped at all. When you tell them their parts which are precisely chosen to fit exactly don't even come close, they tell me to take it to a trans shop. Their trans builder couldn't even figure out why some parts were not fitting and threw up his hands. I call bull crap on that. Either they don't know what they are doing, or their parts don't fit as advertised, or they don't care. I will allow they might have been mistaken but then they would have been mistaken on nearly every major area of this transmission. And they did not know that there was an aftermarket rear piston which solved leakage problems!

Seriously that is preposterous and leaves the armature like myself just hanging. I spent the money and all I have is an inop transmission and ill fitting parts.

When building the transmission IAW the dodge shop manual, having just built the main shaft gear train assembly, again, the clearances are out. I should have from .006" upwards to .048". Measuring it, I have something between .050" and .055" and perhaps more. Reading the Dodge FSM, it states that if the clearances exceed the maximum value, I need to fit a thicker snap ring!

THICKER SNAP RING!!!!!!!!!!! What the heck???Who ever saw a snap ring, let alone a selection of thick or thinner snap rings at that exact diameter???? And more, the company that sells that stuff does not sell to the GP, only to shops, so you have to get friendly with a shop just to get the Da#!Q%$!! part.

Tonight was the last straw. Pressing ahead, I tried to fit the rear band and know what? After almost 2 hours...YES, 2 hours of tapping, wiggling, lubing, blessing and everything else I know how to do, the Da#$!)&!! thing still does not fit.

So I'm throwing in the towel. This transmission has proven to be beyond my ability. I'll bet that most people who aren't professionals who rebuild these things do not check the clearances and probably just assembled a piece of junk which will not last.

There are just too many variables to these 727 based transmissions to make it work out without a warehouse to back you up and some one better than RevMax to support you.

Here is the waste of time tonight
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #239 on: November 22, 2014, 11:09:29 AM »
Here is the gear train assembly just beginning.

This forward planetary gear is a 4 pinion with an aluminum housing with no known aftermarket or better part, so I'll have to keep it
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 11:10:31 AM by Flyin6 »
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #240 on: November 22, 2014, 11:11:09 AM »
Here the sun shell is added
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #241 on: November 22, 2014, 11:12:54 AM »
Good parts here, but ill fitting!

The steel (Dull color) planet gear is a good steel 5 pinion whereas the factory supplied a weaker 4 pinion aluminum gear which will go bye-bye
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #242 on: November 22, 2014, 11:13:31 AM »
And that fits snugly into the annulus gear
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #243 on: November 22, 2014, 11:14:17 AM »
Which seemed to fit properly into the sun shell onto the new billet shaft
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #244 on: November 22, 2014, 11:16:54 AM »
Then came the bad, bad clearance measurement time. To do it properly, you invert the stack and support it on a block of wood, then use the feeler gage. .006" to .048" is the magic range, but I couldn't get in there and was a wider .055" ish, possibly more. Which is consistent with everything else in this transmission, and is out of spec! >:(
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #245 on: November 22, 2014, 11:18:32 AM »
OK, screw it, I'm pushing on

At least the piston cage for the OD unit was a bolt on. A simple cleaning, a couple gaskets, and a torqueing and that was done
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #246 on: November 22, 2014, 11:20:37 AM »
The rear band went right back in
RevMax told me to reuse the old one because they never wear out, so I did. However based on the rest of their advice this thing will probably explode the first time I put the trans in gear!
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #247 on: November 22, 2014, 11:26:11 AM »
Then after installing in the rear band drum, I started to play with the band apply linkage. The time was around 1530.

It wouldn't fit. I could not get the pin to slide in and the strut kept sliding out and I kept dropping things and more and more. Then I'd put it down and walk away and read the manual, and take it apart and reinstall it and get frustrated, and...

Well I heard a car door slam outside, which was my wife coming home. A quick glance of the watch, five minutes till 6!!!!!!!! Almost 2 and a half hours since I started this fiasco

Well, that was the straw...I'm done. The next thing I do to this trans will be to box up the parts and take them to someone...This has not been fun. I have wasted a lot of time and proven nothing
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Re: SquareD Part 7: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #248 on: November 22, 2014, 11:27:26 AM »
So this is it...I'm done
Not screwing with this thing any more
End of a build day and the waste of maybe 25-30 hours!
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Re: SquareD Part 6: The build continues and gets more aggressive
« Reply #249 on: November 22, 2014, 12:22:42 PM »
At least, you know the quality of the clean-up, paint job and the replaced parts you're able to get assembled.  Wherever you end up taking it should be able to tell you the what and why it wouldn't work together and you can pack-up the left overs and ship to the company of origin and tell them to credit your account or you'll dispute the entire charges through your "plastic" financial company, and post your results via the old site and this one!

Remember that all things happen for a purpose-
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"When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. Hence, dealing with this fact is not difficult. It is only hard for those still living around you.....It's the same when you're stupid."

 

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