REAL MAN TRUCKWORKS & SURVIVAL
WEAPONS => Less Than Lethal => Topic started by: JR on September 24, 2014, 01:44:57 AM
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But of course we need this.
I have rubber 12g buckshot, lots of pepper spray for a start.
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I happened to get my hands on some CS rubber durometer rounds. From about 20 yards, they make a real impression and release CS. That's often the first round in my 12 ga followed by #4 Federal with slugs in the carrier.
I also have some bore thunder flash bangs that can get someone's attention, but I'm not a fan of loading them in the weapon. In a pinch the rubber rounds at close range can slow them down enough to rack the buckshot, the bang won't buy you any time.
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I personally don't believe in "less than lethal". If it's a situation that's bad enough for me to have to point a gun at someone, I don't want my rounds to bounce.
I can see the usefulness in LE, but for me, no.
So, Someone's out back stealing a chicken because he's starving? ok, he might get a warning shot (or a leg wound).
Raping a daughter (anyone's)? A few to the chest.
Go ahead guys, start whipping on me.
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I personally don't believe in "less than lethal". If it's a situation that's bad enough for me to have to point a gun at someone, I don't want my rounds to bounce.
I can see the usefulness in LE, but for me, no.
So, Someone's out back stealing a chicken because he's starving? ok, he might get a warning shot (or a leg wound).
Raping a daughter (anyone's)? A few to the chest.
Go ahead guys, start whipping on me.
Just to clarify, although this is a valid discussion, when I set up this area, I was thinking of PPCT style hand fighting techniques...no guns or edge weapons
I sort of agree with Ken
Guns are for stopping the threat
As for Shotguns, back in the day I was running with a couple of Seal teams. Knowing that I was a pilot, they got me a Mossberg 500.
They told me to load it with #6 or 7 in the chamber. Follow that with two 00 Buckshot. That is followed by two .50 sabot or slugs, then the rest is something like #2 or #4.
Rationale: You are running from some folks who wish to do harm to you. While running roll the gun behind you and squeeze off the birdshot.
That gets their attention and buys you a second or two
With that time, stop, turn and shoot the closest person with the buckshot, then shoot the second person.
At this point they are wondering what just happened. Infantrymen will go for cover. Pray they roll behind a cinder block wall or a fender of a vehicle.
Aim your next round, a slug at the guy behind the cinder block wall and dispatch him, then do the same with the guy behind the fender.
If you have a gun like mine, you have two more rounds...turn and run squeezing off the next round or two one handed pointing behind you
While you get some distance, you now are empty or have a killing round in the chamber...Load one bird shot, then two slugs, then top off with 00 Buckshot and prepare to do it all again.
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I think most of us are in the same frame of mind here. If a gun is out, play time is over.
CS in 12g, never "used" them but they "may come in handy (wink)
Nice thing with #6 or 7 is if they are close enough it will do the job just fine.
If you have fewer slugs or reaching out ammo, just slightly cut around just above the lower metal case. It will separate when fired and carry the whole mess out farther before it opens up, viola, you have a 00 power in a #6 round.
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If you have fewer slugs or reaching out ammo, just slightly cut around just above the lower metal case. It will separate when fired and carry the whole mess out farther before it opens up, viola, you have a 00 power in a #6 round.
Nice...Didn't know that little trick!
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Inside the house maybe 7's or 6's, but outside I'd lean more towards #5 or #4 as they're going to carry more penetration and damage bone too. Killed a 50lb coyote end of December in Roscoe, SD at 25yrds using cylinder choke, running shot.....quartering away...using #5 shot.
Inside, it's too heavy and will carry through drywall - #7.5 won't really, but if did would hit about like a BB gun at worst. :o
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Ken, don't disagree in a post EOTWAWKI situation. However, in the real world, discharging a round often carries with it about $40,000 in legal fees if you get rung up by the grand jury, which it only takes a couple of bleeding heart liberals to turn the tide.
If you discharge a non lethal round first, it helps set the table for the assertion that lethal force was the last resort and thus you were not "out for a kill"
I am of little use to my family if I am behind bars.
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I personally don't believe in "less than lethal". If it's a situation that's bad enough for me to have to point a gun at someone, I don't want my rounds to bounce.
I can see the usefulness in LE, but for me, no.
So, Someone's out back stealing a chicken because he's starving? ok, he might get a warning shot (or a leg wound).
Raping a daughter (anyone's)? A few to the chest.
Go ahead guys, start whipping on me.
Just to clarify, although this is a valid discussion, when I set up this area, I was thinking of PPCT style hand fighting techniques...no guns or edge weapons
I sort of agree with Ken
Guns are for stopping the threat
As for Shotguns, back in the day I was running with a couple of Seal teams. Knowing that I was a pilot, they got me a Mossberg 500.
They told me to load it with #6 or 7 in the chamber. Follow that with two 00 Buckshot. That is followed by two .50 sabot or slugs, then the rest is something like #2 or #4.
Rationale: You are running from some folks who wish to do harm to you. While running roll the gun behind you and squeeze off the birdshot.
That gets their attention and buys you a second or two
With that time, stop, turn and shoot the closest person with the buckshot, then shoot the second person.
At this point they are wondering what just happened. Infantrymen will go for cover. Pray they roll behind a cinder block wall or a fender of a vehicle.
Aim your next round, a slug at the guy behind the cinder block wall and dispatch him, then do the same with the guy behind the fender.
If you have a gun like mine, you have two more rounds...turn and run squeezing off the next round or two one handed pointing behind you
While you get some distance, you now are empty or have a killing round in the chamber...Load one bird shot, then two slugs, then top off with 00 Buckshot and prepare to do it all again.
Don, I am interested in learning more about H2H. I have some training but not enough (is there every enough?) I like the strike to the carotid artery, throat punch, solar plexus, (only somewhat familiar with arm bars)but would like more options.
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Ken, don't disagree in a post EOTWAWKI situation. However, in the real world, discharging a round often carries with it about $40,000 in legal fees if you get rung up by the grand jury, which it only takes a couple of bleeding heart liberals to turn the tide.
If you discharge a non lethal round first, it helps set the table for the assertion that lethal force was the last resort and thus you were not "out for a kill"
I am of little use to my family if I am behind bars.
There is the other view that if you had time to first fire a warning shot, you may of had time to take other action. If you do fire a warning shot it is better to say " I shot once and missed but the other two were on target". I guess if my or my family's lives are at stake we will sort it out later.
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Ken, don't disagree in a post EOTWAWKI situation. However, in the real world, discharging a round often carries with it about $40,000 in legal fees if you get rung up by the grand jury, which it only takes a couple of bleeding heart liberals to turn the tide.
If you discharge a non lethal round first, it helps set the table for the assertion that lethal force was the last resort and thus you were not "out for a kill"
I am of little use to my family if I am behind bars.
Dang Tex, I thought you lived in the wild state of Texas, where men run around (legally) shooting people over personal property, open doors for women, and drive huge trucks! was I dreaming? haha
Just kidding, you make a valid (mature) point. I usually don't think that far ahead, just ask my wife.