Author Topic: Project Terminated (Read 24922 times)

OldKooT · « **Reply #1 on:** April 07, 2016, 11:22:06 AM »

Today Day 1: I called Tate and ordered a few parts and didn't have any convulsions or regrets at spending $$ so that's a great sign my motivation is alive and well.

I have a bare frame sitting in the shed that is about half painted and stripped of even the suspension mounting brackets. I was so thrilled last Summer with my new rivet removal tool (big honking air hammer) I may have removed things just for the fun of it. Anyway on the upside, I can make the claim this is a frame up rebuild...because that is where we are starting.

Since it won't warm up and be spring like here I can't really finish painting yet. So....lacking a real shop because well that's the next project (I know a bit backwards) I am going to start with punting junk around in the shed and making room. Maybe spend time devising a easy way to move the frame around when it gets time to paint/assemble.

Man this thread is already a bummer...I promise I will paint a caliper or something and spice this up in the near future.

Anyway, here is a truck (not mine) that generates a vision of what color it will be.

OldKooT · « **Reply #2 on:** April 07, 2016, 11:41:41 AM »

The above posted picture represents a OEM starting point..... from that we need to create a durable off road friendly and highway happy platform. Think a tractor that can run along a 90mph with the new fancy pickups.

Weight: Less it weighs the better. I expect a fair amount of gear, a bed mounted tent possibly, camping equipment, mid weight towing capabilities, and again it has to handle off road trails. So many expo rigs get to a point they are so heavy, and unbalanced, where they can go off road is limited heavily. I fully intend this truck to go where it will physically fit. This will not be a crawler, but it will have to deal with rocks, it won't be a mudder, but it's going to see plenty of mud, it will not be a river truck, but it will cross hood deep water and, well you get the idea.

Think Camel trophy meets Ultimate adventure, and some blend of in between.

stlaser · « **Reply #3 on:** April 07, 2016, 12:21:02 PM »

cool, now I understand....... ;D

OldKooT · « **Reply #4 on:** April 07, 2016, 12:37:46 PM »

Yah Yah I know not a wheeling truck...LoL But I am getting to that age in my life where I really enjoy going places that don't have a dozen other rigs tackling a obstacle. I have always subscribed to the concept that the real challenge off road is conquering the trail, despite it's level of difficulty, while enjoying the experience and nature. So this rig is all about getting back to those days when we had a load of fun doing just that.

That said in it's last incarnation it got around ok for a pig of a truck. It's still much smaller than today's pickups and way lighter. I hope to improve on that this go around. All in all, this won't be too fancy of a build. Just a simple strong foundation for adventure.

Somewhere in Idaho many years ago after 9 hours of amazing snow and scenery.

stlaser · « **Reply #5 on:** April 07, 2016, 01:18:23 PM »

Nice! I too am over the trucks that I tended to lay on their side or even endo. I do miss standing it up on its rear wheels every once in awhile I must admit! ;D I know I haven't given it much love on the jk build thread but as soon as a couple projects are completed (one for storage & one for mom to sun bath on) I will be going full speed on a similar build with the jk......

Nate · « **Reply #6 on:** April 07, 2016, 03:44:24 PM »

heres your original thread in case you want to link it to this one?

http://real-man-truckworks-and-survival.com/index.php?topic=724.0

Flyin6 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 07, 2016, 03:51:06 PM »

Sub'd

Flyin6 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 07, 2016, 03:51:31 PM »

^^^Sorry, had to do that!

Flyin6 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 07, 2016, 03:53:14 PM »

Stormin, Norman,

Love it. Excellent color choice

I have wanted to see you finish that BLD (Big Long Dodge) since you, err, I mean, Kay started it what a year ago.

Hmmm, have to laugh at myself

Get it? Finish it???!!!

cudakidd53 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 07, 2016, 04:46:30 PM »

Start it.....it's got a REALLY nice finish already.

OldKooT · « **Reply #11 on:** April 07, 2016, 06:04:32 PM »

It's a bare frame and a ugly almost no paint left on it cab...anything we do is "finishing" LoL

On the color: The truck I posted a pic of is the same color as ours, but it's clearly a gloss finish. Our truck was shipped a semi gloss finish. The vote around here so far, is it will remain semi gloss.

Also, it's likely it will have a step side bed. That would lend it's self much more to off road use than the fleet-side bed it came with.

6400lbs completed is the goal.
50 gallons fuel capacity minimal.
20mpg or very close

Crowd sourcing: I NEED one passenger side rear Dodge step-side fender. I also need one passenger side mint rust free crew cab rear door. Feel free to keep your eyes open and contact me if you have any leads on these parts.

cj7ox · « **Reply #12 on:** April 07, 2016, 06:55:26 PM »

Nice sounding project, Norm!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

KensAuto · « **Reply #13 on:** April 07, 2016, 09:57:47 PM »

I vote mil style bed, on 52s...oh, and six doors.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1600r20-Goodyear-At3a-Take-Off-90-52-Tires-Monster-Truck-Military-Tire-/291730191356

stlaser · « **Reply #14 on:** April 07, 2016, 10:39:10 PM »

I owned a set of those tires once...... ;D

JR · « **Reply #15 on:** April 08, 2016, 12:18:14 AM »

I love the idea of what the truck will be built to do, a little of everything well or better. Color is right on too.

I know it adds weight, but I always invisioned one with a utility bed. I mean we always carry so much, why not plan for that from the start?

I keep seeing this on CL in Reno. I think it is a tailgate 1500 version is a turnoff;

OldKooT · « **Reply #16 on:** April 08, 2016, 12:58:07 AM »

JR that's a pretty good deal looks like.

LoL @52" rubber....I will be pretty excited if I can wedge 38" rubber under it. Now if I sell those Hutchinson's, I could see myself buying 40" rubber and force fitting them LoL But I dunno....I like that it fits in parking garages on 38" rubber. But time will tell...

first step... frame paint, springs/axles. I spent tonight digging through my NOS OEM Spicer pile and came up with some 35 spline stub axles...inner tube seals, and assorted bearings races/seals. That should work for now to keep me busy. Hopefully I can sort out my front spring selection and get those ordered, and then start working on the rear end.

stlaser · « **Reply #17 on:** April 08, 2016, 02:57:04 AM »

Bigger rubber just means more fender trimming...... :o

swbhobie16 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 08, 2016, 07:24:58 AM »

Quote from: stlaser on April 08, 2016, 02:57:04 AM

Bigger rubber just means more fender trimming...... :o

Kaiser saw this, and took a sawzall to a set of wagoneer fenders and made a 44" diameter fender on the 715.. just sayin ;D

satin/semi gloss looks amazing on those trucks. dad painted his yesterday, about to head out and check the color.

and those 12 valve 'burb looks awesome. would make for a great expedition vehicle. so much room for activities!!

OldKooT · « **Reply #19 on:** April 08, 2016, 08:24:17 AM »

The Ramcharger has 37" rubber a 4" or so spring and fender stretching, as well as the front axle slid forward 1.5" 38" is about the limit and still have a suspension that moves. If you removed the entire inner fender, slid the axle forward 2.5" and cut a lot you may get to 40" before the firewall gets in the way. Again assuming you want the front springs to actually move. Just the nature of a 1st gen Dodge.

I can get anything done with 38" rubber a 40" tire can do, so it's not a huge deal. The other limitation I am working with is low range gearing. With a 38" tire roughly speaking 3.73-4.10 gears are about right. 4.56 is better for slower speed work but too deep for 85mph freeway speeds...so in the end I am most likely going to stay in the 3.73-4.10 range which with the 5spd gearing will work fine.

The OTHER limitation is if I use the 16" Hutchinson's, my decent radial mud terrain rubber choices are somewhat limited. Again 38" being about the ceiling.

stlaser · « **Reply #20 on:** April 08, 2016, 09:48:01 AM »

Norm it's not the tire size it's the driver. I saw my buddy (elderly guy from SE Ky) with a beat up ol EB on bald 35" boggers that each had 3 cases of plugs in per tire to keep air in them go places a custom tube chassis purpose built crawler on 44's couldn't go. Driver can make up for vehicle limitations.......

KensAuto · « **Reply #21 on:** April 08, 2016, 10:10:26 AM »

Kooter, you had 40s on the last green truck didn't you...or 42s maybe...the one in that pic up there^^^

I know you talked about it a while back, but icr.

OldKooT · « **Reply #22 on:** April 08, 2016, 10:38:54 AM »

Yeah ST I agree. This truck and I have 120K+ miles of traveling and wheeling together already. It's been over the Rubicon, most of Moab and Colorado in it's previous configuration of 38" rubber, locked diffs and a healthy big block. It's been to Pismo and Silver lake dunes, Wis mud, and the Smokey Mt's even a bit. So I have a fair idea what it can and can't do.

With some modern touches and a rebuild, it should be capable enough for our needs. It's just about getting it done and driving LoL

That's part of the reason I am going with a stepside bed this go around. I was forever knocking the tail lights out of the original bed on dirt banks, and rocks and trees and whatever else it brushed against in a an attempt to maneuver a large truck places it would fit, but maybe shouldn't. The stepside bed is just a ancient form of dove tailing as I see it. LoL

The issues we had with the truck were Dana 60 front pinion shaft breakage. Many a bent/destroyed tie rod...fuel tank damage. And a few stub axles/lockouts in the front axle. Most of the tie rods came from submerged stumps in Colorado mudholes back before they paved such trails as holy cross and other fun destinations. The OEM Dodge tie rod will flex and bend if you look at it cross eyed. I upgraded to chromo tube stuff and it survived much better, but still bent on occasion.

Part of the reason I want it light as possible for it's bulk is I would really prefer to keep a front 60 under it. But I have promised myself if I break a pinion shaft again, it's getting a 14 bolt front with RCV's. I am sure it will be a constantly evolving project...

First step get it on the road, Sec step outfit it for expo type use. Third step fix all the mistakes from step 1 and 2 and enjoy it.

wilsonphil · « **Reply #23 on:** April 08, 2016, 10:44:29 AM »

Quote from: OldKooT on April 07, 2016, 06:04:32 PM

6400lbs completed is the goal.

I have no idea how you will keep it that light!

OldKooT · « **Reply #24 on:** April 08, 2016, 11:05:44 AM »

Ken... it ran 38" Swampers or 38 Michelin XML's depending where it was going. In this video ya can see it with the swampers on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a0uJanyryA In the icy wettest snow I have ever managed to find, right in the driveway LoL A friend had planted his Jeep Scrambler on 35" rubber/locked and we were trying to extract him.

I watch that and grin, man that big inch Wedge could spin up. I remember the recall on the tack saying 7200 rpm or so after we were done. That 727 saw a workout that day also... For those interested that motor dynoed at 637hp on pump gas. It's still with us...it sits on a stand pickled for the "next" thing I toss it into.

Flyin6 · « **Reply #25 on:** April 08, 2016, 11:07:19 AM »

Quote from: wilsonphil on April 08, 2016, 10:44:29 AM

Quote from: OldKooT on April 07, 2016, 06:04:32 PM

6400lbs completed is the goal.

I have no idea how you will keep it that light!

Helium blended into the radiator and transmission fluid

Oh, and light weight clothing for Norm and Kay

Duh... ;-))

OldKooT · « **Reply #26 on:** April 08, 2016, 11:14:53 AM »

Well Phil... it will be a challenge. But it weighed in right at 5470 back in the day. I truck pulled it frequently in the 5500lb class. The Cummins will be a few hundred heavier than the wedge I imagine. The stepside will drop a few hundred over the fleetside box...so that should about even out. Winch/bumpers will add weight..aluminum wheels will drop weight... bottom line it may weigh more, but I intend to pay close attention to weight while building it.

BobbyB · « **Reply #27 on:** April 08, 2016, 12:40:53 PM »

Norm what about dropping on of those old military trailers in place of a bed?

stlaser · « **Reply #28 on:** April 08, 2016, 01:04:37 PM »

Quote from: OldKooT on April 08, 2016, 10:38:54 AM

Yeah ST I agree. This truck and I have 120K+ miles of traveling and wheeling together already. It's been over the Rubicon, most of Moab and Colorado in it's previous configuration of 38" rubber, locked diffs and a healthy big block. It's been to Pismo and Silver lake dunes, Wis mud, and the Smokey Mt's even a bit. So I have a fair idea what it can and can't do.

With some modern touches and a rebuild, it should be capable enough for our needs. It's just about getting it done and driving LoL

That's part of the reason I am going with a stepside bed this go around. I was forever knocking the tail lights out of the original bed on dirt banks, and rocks and trees and whatever else it brushed against in a an attempt to maneuver a large truck places it would fit, but maybe shouldn't. The stepside bed is just a ancient form of dove tailing as I see it. LoL

The issues we had with the truck were Dana 60 front pinion shaft breakage. Many a bent/destroyed tie rod...fuel tank damage. And a few stub axles/lockouts in the front axle. Most of the tie rods came from submerged stumps in Colorado mudholes back before they paved such trails as holy cross and other fun destinations. The OEM Dodge tie rod will flex and bend if you look at it cross eyed. I upgraded to chromo tube stuff and it survived much better, but still bent on occasion.

Part of the reason I want it light as possible for it's bulk is I would really prefer to keep a front 60 under it. But I have promised myself if I break a pinion shaft again, it's getting a 14 bolt front with RCV's. I am sure it will be a constantly evolving project...

First step get it on the road, Sec step outfit it for expo type use. Third step fix all the mistakes from step 1 and 2 and enjoy it.

Did I mention a buddy of mine from NE IN dad designed the front 60? Worked for Dana in Fort Wayne for years. Was a mechanical savant if there is such a thing. Unfortunately he pass just a couple months ago from complications from a stroke. Back ten years ago when we were heavy building tube chassis crawlers (I was helping his son build one in fact) we emailed him a copy of the Dana 60 bible assembled by that Canadian pilot guy (also very nice guy). Anyhow Dick Cleveland (savant) reads the 60 bible & his only response was "I don't think they said one bad thing about the 60". He then clarified to us & he was the guy who did all the hp/torque testing on it & different gear ratios etc. stated that the down side to the 60 is if you put enough hp/torque to it the pinion will walk the ring gear being its only bearing supported at one end unlike say a ford 9" or as you stated 14 bolt.

With all that stated cryoing the gear set may be an option to help you out over long term.

wilsonphil · « **Reply #29 on:** April 08, 2016, 01:55:50 PM »

Quote from: OldKooT on April 08, 2016, 11:14:53 AM

Well Phil... it will be a challenge. But it weighed in right at 5470 back in the day. I truck pulled it frequently in the 5500lb class. The Cummins will be a few hundred heavier than the wedge I imagine. The stepside will drop a few hundred over the fleetside box...so that should about even out. Winch/bumpers will add weight..aluminum wheels will drop weight... bottom line it may weigh more, but I intend to pay close attention to weight while building it.

Well I don't know what kind of material your trucks are made of but I wish my RC was that light!!!

wilsonphil · « **Reply #30 on:** April 08, 2016, 04:34:39 PM »

Quote from: OldKooT on April 08, 2016, 11:14:53 AM

Well Phil... it will be a challenge. But it weighed in right at 5470 back in the day. I truck pulled it frequently in the 5500lb class. The Cummins will be a few hundred heavier than the wedge I imagine. The stepside will drop a few hundred over the fleetside box...so that should about even out. Winch/bumpers will add weight..aluminum wheels will drop weight... bottom line it may weigh more, but I intend to pay close attention to weight while building it.

When I had the driveline out for the frame boxing, I weighed the Cummins and the 518 together, both were still full of oil and the scale was showing 1260lbs which is about 160lbs more than the 440 727 setup. Adding the Cummins is not a big weight penalty. If you forgo the winch, big bumpers, roof rack, sound deadener, spare fuel tank you know all the stuff that's kind of nice to have for expo stuff it should be pretty light.

JR · « **Reply #31 on:** April 08, 2016, 07:24:47 PM »

Reminds me of a time I went hunting with pops and the snow was up to the axles. That is a lot to dig through. If that was your house it was some gorgeous area!!

Then I believe I saw a Koot sighting!!!!!! Kay rocking out on stage,

OldKooT · « **Reply #32 on:** April 08, 2016, 09:22:38 PM »

LoL @ sighting, and I forgot about that video of Kay completely.

Phil that's useful info on the weight of the engine/tranny. Know any engineers that would enjoy calculating how much weight I can pull off the front wheels by setting the engine back 1.5"? And then moving the axle forward 2"? So a 3.5" change.

The truck will have a winch (kinda required) but I likely will use a PTO Ramsey if I can sort out a sensible way to run the winches driveshaft. The winch/pto shaft/box is lighter than a Warn 12K model. If I can't make that work how I like, I will swipe Kays 12K hydraulic LoL

Probably won't be a roof rack. I have the bed and back seat area I can use for gear, and hopefully that will be enough. In the event I need more room I may build a rack for above the bed at cab window height or something. The lower the center of gravity the better.

Mr Laser: That pinion gear climbing the ring gear has been evident in every pinion I have broken on a front 60. I have been tossing around doing the Dana 70 R&P/carrier swap into the front 60... or just building a front Dana 70 because it wouldn't take much effort really. Still time to think on that a bit....

stlaser · « **Reply #33 on:** April 08, 2016, 09:41:45 PM »

If you're gunna go 70 in a 60 why not just step up to a full blown 80? Friend of mine Scott Morris from Sunfire Off Road in Sunman IN. is doing custom 80's. I designed a special cover last fall that Glo is building for them. Just a thought on how to spend more of your money...... ;)

wilsonphil · « **Reply #34 on:** April 08, 2016, 09:51:13 PM »

Quote from: OldKooT on April 08, 2016, 09:22:38 PM

Phil that's useful info on the weight of the engine/tranny. Know any engineers that would enjoy calculating how much weight I can pull off the front wheels by setting the engine back 1.5"? And then moving the axle forward 2"? So a 3.5" change.

Them engineers don't know anything trust me! I can tell you if you move that cummins back 1.5" your firewall will not like it much. Ill run some rough numbers for you this weekend,

wyorunner · « **Reply #35 on:** April 09, 2016, 12:25:25 AM »

Norm, I'm sure you've seen me post about the local available crew... If not, there is an 84 rear passenger door that I believe to be in pretty good shape, only problem is it is attached to a 2wd longbox truck. If you want the price or pictures I can try to provide.

Also, glad to see this happening, as it is in lines with what we want to do.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

JR · « **Reply #36 on:** April 09, 2016, 12:44:53 AM »

Is it really worth moving the engine/tranny back for a probably what would amount to a 200 shift? I can see moving the front axle for pan/wheel clearance as well as a longer wheelbase.

On those 60 you broke, bet you were running big meats just like the video.

What about LMC for the door or fender??

OldKooT · « **Reply #37 on:** April 09, 2016, 03:17:44 AM »

Yah a Dana 80!!!!!! ;D
Then I'd need to go 40 spline and then...... nah I am going to keep this build sensible and sane.

I have exactly 2.5" between my firewall and the closest Cummins part wanting the same space. Moving it to the rear is as simple as drilling a few holes and such fun stuff. As for is it worth it...only Phil can say. I do think Dodge engineers were pretty smart... that said I don't have any faith they really spent much time redesigning much back in 89 when they came up with the idea. Most effort was spent what 1992? The bigger frames IC and so on....everyone knows they just stuck a backhoe engine in a old Dodge pickup and sold em LoL

I do need a door, I probably don't need a entire truck per say LoL

JR I can get fiberglass rear fenders for the stepside, but I like metal, they smash less easily in theory. I may end up with glass anyway... we shall see.

it's after 2am we just got back from dancing.... time to sleep for 3 hours and get back at it.

JR · « **Reply #38 on:** April 09, 2016, 08:08:51 PM »

Was Kay on stage again? She seemed to fit right in,,,,,,,,,,,,

Flyin6 · « **Reply #39 on:** April 10, 2016, 03:25:27 PM »

Quote from: OldKooT on April 09, 2016, 03:17:44 AM

Yah a Dana 80!!!!!! ;D
Then I'd need to go 40 spline and then...... nah I am going to keep this build sensible and sane.

I have exactly 2.5" between my firewall and the closest Cummins part wanting the same space. Moving it to the rear is as simple as drilling a few holes and such fun stuff. As for is it worth it...only Phil can say. I do think Dodge engineers were pretty smart... that said I don't have any faith they really spent much time redesigning much back in 89 when they came up with the idea. Most effort was spent what 1992? The bigger frames IC and so on....everyone knows they just stuck a backhoe engine in a old Dodge pickup and sold em LoL

I do need a door, I probably don't need a entire truck per say LoL

JR I can get fiberglass rear fenders for the stepside, but I like metal, they smash less easily in theory. I may end up with glass anyway... we shall see.

it's after 2am we just got back from dancing.... time to sleep for 3 hours and get back at it.

1991.5 Norm...

That's what Square D is. Added an inter-cooler, as you very well know. Same IC through 93. Something else change about the truck in 92???

OldKooT · « **Reply #40 on:** April 11, 2016, 09:15:42 AM »

Yah JR she's been on a stage or two in her life. Sat night she wasn't dancing on stage, she wailed her sax for some Pink Floyd covers the band did.

Don somewhere in 1992 Dodge increased the frame height on the standard cab Cummins trucks. The 91.5 wiring is unique to 91.5 also BTW LoL
So the 92 and newer are called big frame trucks and the others are small frame in Dodge circles.

Flyin6 · « **Reply #41 on:** April 11, 2016, 09:51:08 AM »

Quote from: OldKooT on April 11, 2016, 09:15:42 AM

Yah JR she's been on a stage or two in her life. Sat night she wasn't dancing on stage, she wailed her sax for some Pink Floyd covers the band did.

Don somewhere in 1992 Dodge increased the frame height on the standard cab Cummins trucks. The 91.5 wiring is unique to 91.5 also BTW LoL
So the 92 and newer are called big frame trucks and the others are small frame in Dodge circles.

Wouldn't ya know it!

I own a "little" frame truck...

OldKooT · « **Reply #42 on:** April 11, 2016, 10:49:41 AM »

Yah Patch is a "little frame" also... but that's good, it's lighter LoL Besides patch only breaks voltage regulators, the small frame is not a issue.

OldKooT · « **Reply #43 on:** April 11, 2016, 12:49:59 PM »

So... I need to be able to rotate and move around the Crew's frame while this process begins in earnest to put this thing on the road.

What do you guys think of suspending the bare frame by a engine stand on each end? It would have to be better than the jackstands and Hutchinson bead locks presently holding it up LoL

KensAuto · « **Reply #44 on:** April 11, 2016, 01:12:55 PM »

Should work...fine...maybe...

...might wanna hook them together somehow.

JR · « **Reply #45 on:** April 11, 2016, 03:44:26 PM »

Sounds like a good plan, attach the stands somehow. Angle would be perfect.

swbhobie16 · « **Reply #46 on:** April 11, 2016, 09:14:32 PM »

Quote from: KensAuto on April 11, 2016, 01:12:55 PM

Should work...fine...maybe...

...might wanna hook them together somehow.

can't wait for the pics to follow.. provided he wins the on going battle with technology and is able to upload some..

EL TATE · « **Reply #47 on:** April 12, 2016, 09:08:48 AM »

HP 14t from T.O.R.C. w/ RCV's sounds like a solid plan, ya know, if you bust the regular front end.

OldKooT · « **Reply #48 on:** April 12, 2016, 10:02:46 AM »

LoL Tate... my plan is to upgrade to some of you folks alloy shafts once completed, and see if I can ruin them. You know, proper farmer durability testing. I think keeping it geared 3.73 or 4.10 will help a little in the front ends durability struggle.

This a Pro Expo build... the focus is on stickers and expensive lights dun't ya know. :D

EL TATE · « **Reply #49 on:** April 12, 2016, 10:24:05 AM »

Quote from: OldKooT on April 12, 2016, 10:02:46 AM

LoL Tate... my plan is to upgrade to some of you folks alloy shafts once completed, and see if I can ruin them. You know, proper farmer durability testing. I think keeping it geared 3.73 or 4.10 will help a little in the front ends durability struggle.

This a Pro Expo build... the focus is on stickers and expensive lights dun't ya know. :D

20hp per sticker, 50 per light bar, gotta be at least 40' wide LED and make sure you put a manufacturer's sticker for every aftermarket part you have on the fender so everyone knows who your sponsors are!