Hello Guest

Author Topic: Hide site, retirement site.  (Read 206623 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Bigdave_185

  • Raising Boys into Real Men!
  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 7686
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #750 on: March 13, 2018, 09:49:54 PM »
I was picturing just on sand and pouring sand in between the stones,


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11314
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #751 on: March 14, 2018, 10:14:08 PM »
Got a little more done. Last side before getting the shingle hardie to finish the dormer.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline Bob Smith

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 2091
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #752 on: March 14, 2018, 10:47:34 PM »
Charles, is this building you are doing for the landscape/pool guy/security  quarters for the mansion in the woods you call a hide site? Sure is coming together nice.

Offline TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11314
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #753 on: March 14, 2018, 11:15:54 PM »
Bob, its a multi purpose building.

For the kids as they have friends over. Potentially a parents/in law quarters as they get older, and potentially a caretaker in my own old age.....

Or for me when my wife and girls are just to  much to bear.....
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline Bob Smith

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 2091
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #754 on: March 14, 2018, 11:37:54 PM »
I think I knew that, just jabbing a bit. The place sure is looking good, I think the pool is going to be a bear to keep clean but there are machines and/or people that can do a good job when you get tired of trying to keep up.

Offline cudakidd53

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 3142
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #755 on: March 15, 2018, 09:55:25 AM »
I think I knew that, just jabbing a bit. The place sure is looking good, I think the pool is going to be a bear to keep clean but there are machines and/or people that can do a good job when you get tired of trying to keep up.

With a self-cleaner/robot and daily pH testing, keeping a pool clean is fairly simple......let it get outta whack and it requires a couple days of more steady attention to get back on course, but not horrible.....spend the money on the robot!
2012 Silverado LTZ - Duramax
Christian since 1975 - Field Trial Brittanys - NRA Lifetime Member

"When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. Hence, dealing with this fact is not difficult. It is only hard for those still living around you.....It's the same when you're stupid."

Offline TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11314
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #756 on: March 15, 2018, 11:46:02 AM »
Mike thanks for that. It’ll have the Polaris cleaner and will be a salt water pool. Any advice there?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline cudakidd53

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 3142
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #757 on: March 15, 2018, 01:18:08 PM »
Forgot about that salt thing........stock up on blocks of salt?.....good for deer season too!  No experience with that other than keep a good stock of oranges around to get that taste outta your mouth upon exit?  :grin:
2012 Silverado LTZ - Duramax
Christian since 1975 - Field Trial Brittanys - NRA Lifetime Member

"When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. Hence, dealing with this fact is not difficult. It is only hard for those still living around you.....It's the same when you're stupid."

Offline TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11314
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #758 on: March 15, 2018, 08:28:10 PM »

Backside done.

Few pieces under porch and then the dormer to go



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline KensAuto

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 7684
  • My abuser is named Nate
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #759 on: March 16, 2018, 12:15:44 AM »
Wow you do have a nice back side, I mean, quite a large back side, I mean....oh nevermind

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Underpaid and misunderstood since 2014

Offline cruizng

  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 1112
  • Happy to be here.
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #760 on: March 16, 2018, 08:27:30 AM »
Mike thanks for that. It’ll have the Polaris cleaner and will be a salt water pool. Any advice there?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TRN, We had a very large saline pool when we lived in NJ and it was the easiest to keep maintenance on it. We rarely had to add salt because the evaporation only takes out the H2O and not salt. You could hardly tell it was salt water but kept the crud out. We ran the pumps about three hours a day. We had a Polaris also like this.

It worked easy also. We also had many trees and it took care of all of it.

I think you are in good shape!

Mike
Sold the DMax in MN and am currently vehicle less.

Offline JR

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 13536
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #761 on: March 16, 2018, 11:18:28 AM »
Mine is salt water also. I like to keep it covered so it stays really warm!

I have the same style sweeper, but the pump needs new bearings.
Retired LEO  Lifetime NRA+  Outcast in Calif

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

Thomas Jefferson

Offline TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11314
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #762 on: March 16, 2018, 12:54:09 PM »
Well onward and upward!

Hardie shingles for the dormer. I should have reconsidered.  Those things are expensive.  That little architectural touch set me back $650 more than just putting the planks on it. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11314
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #763 on: March 16, 2018, 06:48:56 PM »
Well finished up the porch today. Not a very productive day but now I need to calk the front side. That will leave me with just the dormer to finish




Then i hosed off the outdoor kitchen. So much pollen and dust. It looks much better. Will probably want to seal it.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline JR

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 13536
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #764 on: March 17, 2018, 01:13:05 AM »
Looks great!
Retired LEO  Lifetime NRA+  Outcast in Calif

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

Thomas Jefferson

Offline KensAuto

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 7684
  • My abuser is named Nate
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #765 on: March 17, 2018, 09:14:12 AM »
Looks great!
:like

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Underpaid and misunderstood since 2014

Offline TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11314
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #766 on: March 17, 2018, 10:15:53 PM »
Today was a slow day.  Mom and dad decided to pay a visit.  So I drove to the feed store and bought plants for the garden.  I harvested spinach, lettuce and turnip greens today and planted three different types of tomatoes, hatch chili, Goliath jalapenos, regular jalapenos, zuchini, bell pepper, cucumber, basil, and cilantro.

went to lunch with the parents for burgers.

Then i cleaned the shop a bit and moved firewood with the youngest.  cleaned the pine needles off the roof and out of the gutter, burned all that stuff i blew in a pile. Smoked some chicken legs,

Watching Ferris Bullers day off with kids.  I figure they are old enough now to watch it. 
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline Nate

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5743
  • I like to torment Ken!
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #767 on: March 17, 2018, 11:38:32 PM »
If you need the promise of eternity in the kingdom of heaven to be a good person … You were never a good person in the first place!

Offline TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11314
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #768 on: March 18, 2018, 08:55:13 AM »
Interesting Nate. Thanks.

BTW, you never notice how much foul language is in an old classic movie until you watch it with your kids


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline Nate

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5743
  • I like to torment Ken!
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #769 on: March 18, 2018, 09:26:06 AM »
what movie were you watching?
If you need the promise of eternity in the kingdom of heaven to be a good person … You were never a good person in the first place!

Offline Bigdave_185

  • Raising Boys into Real Men!
  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 7686
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #770 on: March 18, 2018, 09:30:32 AM »
I watched ol Smokey and the bandit with my boy one day. It was much the same way, we had a language time and place conversation


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11314
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #771 on: March 18, 2018, 11:08:07 AM »
what movie were you watching?
Ferris Bueller’s Day Off


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline stlaser

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 10205
  • Official PIA
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #772 on: March 18, 2018, 11:37:28 AM »
what movie were you watching?
Ferris Bueller’s Day Off


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Classic, foul language yes but unfortunately it is a part of society
Living in the remote north hoping Ken doesn’t bring H up here any time soon…..

Offline TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11314
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #773 on: March 18, 2018, 01:02:50 PM »
Yeah, we lead by example.  My children have never heard that language out of my mouth

OK menses.

Need advice.  Have a 8700lb high cube shipping container sitting on RR ties, one at each end.  Need to move it back 3 ft.  Have trees behind it.  gravel in front.  Don't think I can push it with the dually because it would spin on gravel and the tractor just digs a hole with the wheels.

I thought about putting two 4 ton cable pullers, one on each corner and tensioning it to the trees and then if it doesnt move, give it a shove with the tractor or the dually

Any advice on how to move this thing that I have not thought of?
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline KensAuto

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 7684
  • My abuser is named Nate
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #774 on: March 18, 2018, 01:10:05 PM »
That's the way I would do it, or, use a high lift to put some pipe on the ties...it would break friction and possibly give it just enough momentum to go 3 feet.
Underpaid and misunderstood since 2014

Offline Bob Smith

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 2091
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #775 on: March 18, 2018, 02:31:44 PM »
Like Ken, if the cable pullers don't work, set up rollers under it and roll it into place. I moved a shed with 4 inch pipe rolling on 6x8 timbers, hardest part was trying to stop it before it ran into the apple tree which actually stopped it.

Offline Tommy13

  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 189
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #776 on: March 18, 2018, 03:16:02 PM »
I was thinking that I would be worried about stopping with the pipe rollers as well Bob. 

Looking good TRN those shakes get pricey fast.  The trim pack for our house cost more than the siding.  It all adds to the look as well as the bill.
Exodus 14:14

Offline KensAuto

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 7684
  • My abuser is named Nate
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #777 on: March 18, 2018, 04:30:10 PM »
I was just thinking rollers on the 2 timbers..the pipes would fall after it starts moving

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Underpaid and misunderstood since 2014

Offline stlaser

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 10205
  • Official PIA
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #778 on: March 18, 2018, 05:13:51 PM »
Snatch block off each corner to two separate trees one either side of container, truck pulling one & tractor pulling the other. I would think it would move it that way as your splitting the load in half then multiplying the force with the blocks.
Living in the remote north hoping Ken doesn’t bring H up here any time soon…..

Offline Flyin6

  • Head cook and bottle washer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 34008
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #779 on: March 18, 2018, 06:48:24 PM »
I can't say, just nudge it with the new SVL-95...Sorry...
Site owner    Isaiah 6:8, Psalm 91 
NSDQ      Author of the books: Distant Thunder and Thoren

Offline TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11314
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #780 on: March 18, 2018, 07:26:03 PM »
Yeah. I need one of those.

Maybe I’ll sell the tractor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11314
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #781 on: March 18, 2018, 10:18:18 PM »
Ok so last night we had big rain. Today I cleaned up in the shop, changed the oil in the HH6 minivan. Test fit some 2x4s in the shipping container. Bible study about charismatics. Cleaned up outside some misc junk.  Then moved a stack of firewood to a new location and cut up 5 cedar trees and stacked them up. And cut two small cedars near the pool.

Hope they get this thing done this week.

Found this big ass tarantula lurking on the side of the pool.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline Sammconn

  • Just A Guy in the Sticks
  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 3894
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #782 on: March 19, 2018, 01:14:43 PM »
Four inch pipes.
We move all kinds of stuff on them.
As long as the ground is reasonably flat two will do.

Depending on grade, you could push it with a golf cart.
I just don't want to wind up missing a digit or limb.  I can sometimes get in a hurry to get results.
Sam

Offline Nate

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5743
  • I like to torment Ken!
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #783 on: March 19, 2018, 01:37:29 PM »
Are you saying your scared of spiders....he may just be thirsty and was lookin for a drink
If you need the promise of eternity in the kingdom of heaven to be a good person … You were never a good person in the first place!

Offline Bob Smith

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 2091
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #784 on: March 19, 2018, 02:45:30 PM »
If you do use the trees to help move the thing put something between the chain or cable and the tree to protect the bark from tearing.

Offline stlaser

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 10205
  • Official PIA
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #785 on: March 19, 2018, 03:04:33 PM »
If you do use the trees to help move the thing put something between the chain or cable and the tree to protect the bark from tearing.

6” wide x 10 foot long lifting strap ie tree savers are what we use when winching
Living in the remote north hoping Ken doesn’t bring H up here any time soon…..

Offline TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11314
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #786 on: March 19, 2018, 05:30:57 PM »
Are you saying your scared of spiders....he may just be thirsty and was lookin for a drink

Spiders scare me more than snakes. Especially ones that measure more than 3.5 inches across. Nothing good has that many legs.

My wife made me promise not to kill it.  I wanted to take the flamethrower to it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline Flyin6

  • Head cook and bottle washer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 34008
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #787 on: March 19, 2018, 09:50:59 PM »
Yeah. I need one of those.

Maybe I’ll sell the tractor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Keep the tractor

But there is a point to be made here

A CTL and possibly a wheeled loader can do almost everything a tractor can do.

I'd say if you were just starting, as in punching into raw land, then by all means get 75-95HP CTL with the attachments you need. It will clear land, create flat spaces, dig basements and cut in roads. It can hoist heavy stuff like a bridge beam is you're unlucky enough to have to build that, and it can spread gravel.
But when you get the place where you can drive back and are starting to shift from raw clearing to building sone nice things, then a tractor is the right choice.

So: for planning...Starting out?? CTL

Ben there for awhile and have a place to live: Tractor
Site owner    Isaiah 6:8, Psalm 91 
NSDQ      Author of the books: Distant Thunder and Thoren

Offline KensAuto

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 7684
  • My abuser is named Nate
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #788 on: March 19, 2018, 11:07:26 PM »
Yeah Don, it only took you 5 years to take your own advice (and there might have been a few of us pushing that direction). :)
Underpaid and misunderstood since 2014

Offline Flyin6

  • Head cook and bottle washer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 34008
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #789 on: March 20, 2018, 11:15:02 AM »
Yeah Don, it only took you 5 years to take your own advice (and there might have been a few of us pushing that direction). :)
If I dropped that kind of coin on something like this back then you would have been saying, "Now when was Don killed? Was it four or has it been five years now???
Site owner    Isaiah 6:8, Psalm 91 
NSDQ      Author of the books: Distant Thunder and Thoren

Offline KensAuto

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 7684
  • My abuser is named Nate
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #790 on: March 20, 2018, 07:35:09 PM »
Haha.  Nah, we would've thought it was standard Don procedure.   :cool:
Underpaid and misunderstood since 2014

Offline TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11314
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #791 on: March 23, 2018, 07:10:08 PM »
Little more progress. 

Fire pit cut down and topsoil spread and more flagstone delivered.  Flagstone should be done tomorrow and pebbletec shot next weekend.

About to try out the fire pit




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11314
    • View Profile
Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #792 on: March 23, 2018, 08:31:39 PM »
Inaugural Fire

Feel all uppity with a real firepit and a crystal glass.

(Don’t tell anyone. I’ll have to change my license plate. )




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline Bigdave_185

  • Raising Boys into Real Men!
  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 7686
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #793 on: March 23, 2018, 09:26:04 PM »
Sneakers to add


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11314
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #794 on: March 23, 2018, 09:31:29 PM »
what you don't like my Saloman's?
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline Bigdave_185

  • Raising Boys into Real Men!
  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 7686
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #795 on: March 23, 2018, 10:21:51 PM »
Didn’t say I liked or disliked, just noted they are not boots like a name like Tex lol implies


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline KensAuto

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 7684
  • My abuser is named Nate
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #796 on: March 23, 2018, 11:32:14 PM »
TexasSnootyTooty..

....nah, doesn't roll off the tongue the same
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 11:32:54 PM by KensAuto »
Underpaid and misunderstood since 2014

Offline stlaser

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 10205
  • Official PIA
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #797 on: March 23, 2018, 11:49:26 PM »
Hey I’m all for comfortable footwear. You won’t hear a peep out of me in that regards. I wore leather work boots in a steel shop for close to twenty years, seven days a week and now I sport merrell’s from slip ons to sandles year around. Just be aware Ken likes to throw hippy accusations around like it’s his full time job for such things.
Living in the remote north hoping Ken doesn’t bring H up here any time soon…..

Offline TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11314
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #798 on: March 23, 2018, 11:49:52 PM »
Ha Ken. I’ve seen your palatial patio and fire pit


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline KensAuto

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 7684
  • My abuser is named Nate
    • View Profile
Re: Hide site, retirement site.
« Reply #799 on: March 24, 2018, 12:51:35 AM »
But you haven't seen me holding crystal while sporting purdy shoes.  :tongue:
Underpaid and misunderstood since 2014

 

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal