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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #200 on: June 27, 2016, 02:56:40 PM »
If it not one thing its something else, so I’m driving down the freeway @ 70mph and I hear a noise from the back of the RC and look in my mirror and see my spare tire bouncing down the freeway behind me, cars swerving trying to avoid, I immediately pull over to the side of the freeway.  I guess someone was watching over me and everyone else on the road that day because the tire did not hit anyone and stopped bouncing on the side of the road.   Needless to say I was perplexed as to how this happened, after I collected all the parts and got everything loaded in the back of the RC I got to a point to where I could look at everything in detail.
 
  A little background,  I built this rear bumper two years ago and it has never given me a problem.  So when I saw the spindle shaft sheared off I was extremely surprised, as you can see from the pictures it was a clean break and if you notice the color of the break its dark so it tells me the actual metal is suspect, there are no flaws in the metal and no oxidation so it happened all at once.  It is mounted vertically and stays in one position 90% of the time and if you look at the break it’s a forward to back in direction and makes sense as the tire will load the spindle in that direction going down the road as to why it still a mystery! this spindle in 1" in dia and made from a 1.5" bar stock.

I bought this unit from RufStuff specialties and they claim that this unit will support a 40” beadlock tire, and for the record I run a 33”LT unit.  I am at a loss as to why it broke and RuffStuff say this is the first time they have ever see one broken.  They did send me a new unit but since this bumper is also my spare fuel tank I have to cut the bumper open to change this unit I am going to build a new bumper and make some changes /improvements. 

Offline cudakidd53

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #201 on: June 27, 2016, 04:40:56 PM »
That's strange looking- glad nobody got hit with the flying tire!  The one picture looks like dark lines going laterally and one looks like a dark ring around radially.  Was wondering if it got over heated when you welded it in place possibly? (radial ring)
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #202 on: June 27, 2016, 04:52:29 PM »
I was think the same thing, heat from welding but normally when you do that the unit will bend not snap off!  and two years later, maybe I've been lucky all this time
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 05:23:06 PM by wilsonphil »

Offline cudakidd53

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #203 on: June 27, 2016, 06:06:30 PM »
Heating & cooling at wrong rate changes the metallic structure- guessing the supplied spindle was turned steel and not ment to be welded?  Where it snapped was barrier between hot zone and where the original steel wasn't "altered" to the same molecular structure creating a weak spot that just happened to also be where stress point of your swing away rack resided.  Possibly one of the times you need to heat the spindle with a tourch to allow everything to cool the same?
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Offline EL TATE

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #204 on: June 27, 2016, 06:24:17 PM »
Man when it rains it pours! glad no one was hurt. I'm with "the Kid" on this one; I'm no metallurgist, but I've always been told heat treatments are tricky, and I know people have damaged their superjoint caps trying to tack weld the caps in place rather than relying on the full circle snap rings.
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #205 on: June 27, 2016, 06:31:12 PM »
I would agree but these are designed to be welded, in other words they have not been heat-treated.  Yes heating and cooling at the wrong rates can lead to problems but I'm not convinced it was the issue in this case, but it is possible since I was not present when these were welded in place anything is possible it just odd the way/when it broke .  basically this is a trailer spindle they have copied so you can mount swing aways on your bumper

http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/BUMPER.html

Offline EL TATE

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #206 on: June 27, 2016, 06:34:10 PM »
Ok, I was thinking of originally heat treated material that had been modified. My good friend, (ironically named Don) had custom cut and re-splined some dana 60 axles for his chevy II and first time at the track they snapped clean at the base of the new spline like they'd been sliced w/ a laser. They had not been properly heat treated at the new spline location. It really would boil down to two scenarios in my mind; faulty from the factory, or overheated during install.
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #207 on: June 27, 2016, 06:41:24 PM »
And this happened after two years of use, and I have USED this truck on some pretty nasty roads with just this tire the other side routinely has 4ea jerry cans full of fuel and water and that side has been good.  Now that the one side broke I will be paranoid.  You guys will love how I fixed it until I can build or repair a new bumper.

Offline KensAuto

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #208 on: June 27, 2016, 07:08:27 PM »
Phil, to me it looks different than what you explained...it looks like it's been cracked awhile. The grease makes it hard to tell tho.

Dang china spindles........(?)
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #209 on: June 27, 2016, 07:28:05 PM »
Yes the grease dose make it hard to tell, there is not any evidence of the a crack being there long term it was not working on its self the metal is dull like it was just sheared off and this is supported on both ends when closed, I can almost guarantee its china junk

Offline KensAuto

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #210 on: June 27, 2016, 08:54:29 PM »
That's a good enough reason I suppose.

I was going to ask if the other end was supported, but even if it wasn't, I would think that it would take years to fracture a shaft that size if it was good steel to begin with.
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #211 on: June 27, 2016, 09:22:07 PM »
I agree, if you are ever over on RamCharger central we are discussing this, there is a theory that the stops I have on there caused the crack but the stops are only there to prevent the swingaways from hitting the sides of the RC once I open them.  They have never had enough force to start the crack and even if they did fly open the stop pin would bend.

Online Flyin6

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #212 on: June 27, 2016, 10:47:58 PM »
That's not the first one of those I saw break.

Performance Off Road did a custom CJ. Had one of those. The jeep spent like a year in the shop being built and on the heep's maiden voyage the tire carrier snapped off just like yours.

I have one, but different design. I would not have used it except that the wonderful folks at Road armor bumpers sent it to me as a part of their trick tire carrier.

I think that much weight needs a double shear mount period. I built my carrier on Square D that way. At some point I will likely convert the bumper/carrier on the Chebby to a stronger double shear design.
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Offline JR

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #213 on: June 27, 2016, 11:33:18 PM »
I agree with Ken, that has been rocking back and forth for sometime and it finally gave. Notice all the little lines, then the last break.

Even with a big pin like that there should be some to stabilize all that weight up top.

Sure glad no one was hurt and you got everything back.
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #214 on: June 28, 2016, 11:20:18 AM »
That's not the first one of those I saw break.

Performance Off Road did a custom CJ. Had one of those. The jeep spent like a year in the shop being built and on the heep's maiden voyage the tire carrier snapped off just like yours.

I have one, but different design. I would not have used it except that the wonderful folks at Road armor bumpers sent it to me as a part of their trick tire carrier.

I think that much weight needs a double shear mount period. I built my carrier on Square D that way. At some point I will likely convert the bumper/carrier on the Chebby to a stronger double shear design.

I made a bunch of assumptions when I built the bumper, I assumed that a company would do some sort of basic analysis of a part before they state what it should be able to support.  I assumed said vendor would use good steel,   I will not make the same mistake twice.  I am going to do a true analysis of this part but since I don't know what the material is for sure it will not be 100%.

Don also make another good point how many "store bought" units are out there with this same design running around on the street.  My problem might of never materialized if I didn't drive as  much as I do.  in the other case if this was good steel it might of never broken.

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #215 on: June 28, 2016, 02:20:59 PM »
Good steel would definitely help/solve the problem

But steel comes from China

Nuff said!
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Offline JR

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #216 on: June 28, 2016, 04:04:06 PM »
They get good steel, what they do with it is the question?
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #217 on: June 29, 2016, 12:31:13 PM »
When I was building this unit I asked two different local guys that build these all the time and I got the same answer that this unit(ruffstuff) is what they always use, 38” beadlock Blah,blah, blah.  So without doing a lot of research that is what I bought.  As with any project in hindsight I should of done more research on my own and looked at things more closely.  Fault is 100% on me.
 
  Since this happened with my set up I did some research and found this is a common problem with this design even when supported as my setup was.  Interesting thing I have noticed is all the break patterns are the same as mine, from the tire working fore to aft.  I have since talked to a couple other shops and one shop said they still use this setup but the second shop told me that they used to use them for 10 years until they had two fail in under a month, one was on a two year old build and the other was less than a month old.

So I ran some numbers, I took out all “conservativeism” based this on 1018 CRS(known USA steel) and joint to flat steel, I’m ignoring bearings , lower part of shaft and any tension that the shaft is under, shaft is weakest point and no stress concentration accounted for, and static load.  I have become lazy as normally I let the design software to the analysis so I had to think way back to school days.
 
Qmax  =  (Mr/I )/I 
M = Bending moment = (16” + .5”) X F(lbs)
R = shaft radius = .5”
I = second moment of inertia =  (π 〖in〗^4)/4 =0.049〖in〗^4

Qmax=(-b(16.5in)(F)(.5in))/(0.049〖in〗^4 )
Qmax = 168.4(F)psi

For AISI 1018CRS,  Ftu = 65300psi = Qmax
Fmax = Ftu/168.4  = 387.8lbs

So it is possible if you applied 387.8lbs 16” away from the 1” shaft it could/should break it
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 12:32:05 PM by wilsonphil »

Offline KensAuto

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #218 on: June 29, 2016, 12:47:02 PM »
Wow, that's an ugly number....way less than I thought.
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #219 on: June 29, 2016, 12:51:49 PM »
You and me both but since I am not sure what steel was used I assumed for absolute worst case.  Remember this is for an unsupported load, the shaft I had was supported and my wheel I am estimating 75lbs and the weight of the tire has been working on it for two years.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 01:16:01 PM by wilsonphil »

Offline stlaser

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #220 on: June 29, 2016, 12:55:25 PM »
Good steel would definitely help/solve the problem

But junk steel comes from China

Nuff said!

FIFY
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 12:57:43 PM by stlaser »
Living in the remote north hoping Ken doesn’t bring H up here any time soon…..

Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #221 on: June 29, 2016, 01:00:46 PM »
Agree but when you are buying something you can only go by what you are told by the vendor.  Unless you buy the raw steel your self and get a copy of the cert you really don't know what you have.  All this reminds me of the late 80's early 90's when the market was getting flooded with bogus aircraft/aerospace parts.

Offline stlaser

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #222 on: June 29, 2016, 01:06:15 PM »
Agreed, worst part is this particular vendor (I can just about bet, & I know him unfortunately) as most vendors do not know where his steel came from nor does he have copies of mill certs or for that matter sell the product at a high enough cost to carry the overhead of doing so..... The one thing I always had going for me was that I saw mill certs & knew where the steel came from as I was the one purchasing it from the mills for the company that supplied my business.  ;)
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #223 on: June 29, 2016, 01:26:42 PM »
And it could of been just a bad piece of steel, the other side I have applied 160lbs(4ea jerry cans) to that when I travel and I have not seen a problem.  the side that broke has always had a wheel on the carrier so I am guessing it is just metal fatigue for the weight of the wheel moving for to aft.

Offline stlaser

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #224 on: June 29, 2016, 02:32:51 PM »
I couldn't tell from your pictures, the side that latches. Is it supported underneath and to the vehicle side of the tire mount? What I'm thinking is that the continued vibration (if it was not supported properly on the latch side) is what killed that mount. Kind of reminds me of a couple trailer hitches I have encountered that over the course of years being tongue loaded to heavy and the constant traveling over poor roads ended up fatiguing the steel trailer hitch mount and it ended up tearing away from the truck.
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #225 on: June 29, 2016, 05:19:31 PM »
The other end of the swing away is supported and the latch dose LIMIT upward travel but would not completely stop it, in theory once the arm is on top of the bumper you have unloaded most of load on the bearing and spindle.

 You are correct every bump/vibration in the road and the wheel working fore to aft would constantly work the pin.  I haven’t decide what I will do on the next design yet, it will be a double shear hinge and the arm will be captured or bolted down with the hand screw setup.       

Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #226 on: June 29, 2016, 05:23:35 PM »
I am really liking this design because you weld the sleeve in the bumper and the pin drops in the sleeve and secured with the shear bracket.

http://www.comp4x4.com/Tire-Carrier-Hinge-Kit-with-DUAL-SHEAR-Bracket-HEAVY-DUTY.html


Offline JR

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #227 on: June 29, 2016, 11:25:36 PM »
387 is not a lot of force when you are rocking a large tire back-forth.

So failures are occurring more than one would think, but I doubt it goes all at once. I would still say it took a few hours to do that, but once cracked, its gone!
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build (Colorado trip)
« Reply #228 on: July 11, 2016, 12:25:02 PM »
Took the RC on a little off road trip to the South West of Colorado, beautiful country had a great trip the RC did very well, I didn't have one problem never struggled anywhere on any of the trails I was on.  Didn't see many full size rigs out and about, it was mostly Polaris Razors and Jeep Rubicon's.  My RC draws way to much attention for my liking, not because how it looks mostly because people hear the Diesel and come running over to ask about it.   

Did the following trails and I an sure there are some I forgot,

Engineer
Imogene
mineral creek
California Gulch
Cimmamon pass

Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #229 on: July 11, 2016, 12:32:34 PM »
and then 50miles from end of trip carnage struck!

Offline KensAuto

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #230 on: July 11, 2016, 12:45:29 PM »
Absolutely georgous country, and big as well. That one pic of the snow made me think "avalanche".

You changed that flexplate on the trail? ugh
..maybe time for a billet.
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Offline JR

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #231 on: July 11, 2016, 12:54:36 PM »
What a wonderful country we have to see, just love it.

That is the reason I am thinking of billet right off for mine. Mine is sheared in the center but I have spares.

Did you change it on the trail?
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #232 on: July 11, 2016, 01:41:03 PM »
no fortunate for me this happened 50 miles from home, I could of made it but when it happened I pulled over real quick and shut the engine down to inspect, didn't see anything so tried to start it up and the starter just  hummed, a call to aaa and since I have plus the tow was free.  If this would of happened on the trail it would of been a very bad day. 

Sad part looks like it was broken for a long time, I put a new one in I got from NAPA 4years ago so I wouldn't have a problem >:(.  Its something I will look at from now on at every oil change but I have a new one coming from Cummins tomorrow. 

Really don't need a billet for my application just something that will last so I will buy from Cummins, even with the billet units the ring rear is welded.

Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #233 on: July 11, 2016, 02:37:02 PM »
So the picture above, shows the NAPA unit that failed next to the unit that I took out when I did the conversion.  It looked good, no cracks but I didn't know the history so I put in a new unit.  if you look close the Original (dodge/Cummins) unit on the right has 13 welds and the NAPA unit only has nine. now the NAPA units welds are longer(same amount of weld area) so the spacing between the weld are father apart and I think that is what did this unit in.   Lesson learned so I will inspect more often! 

Offline Nate

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #234 on: July 11, 2016, 03:02:54 PM »
could you go over the flex plate with more welds when you get a new one, or would that warp it / unbalance it..........?
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #235 on: July 11, 2016, 03:52:57 PM »
could you go over the flex plate with more welds when you get a new one, or would that warp it / unbalance it..........?

It would do both and then the ring gear would start to break.  The new unit from Cummins should solve the issue.  Part of the problem with going to a billet unit is they are normally thicker so you have to run a spacer between the bell housing and adapter plate, I don't like doing that and since I don't tow with this truck and the power is basically stock I should be fine with the stock unit.

Offline JR

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #236 on: July 11, 2016, 03:56:34 PM »
Does Cummins make an HD FP?? I bet Lane would know,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #237 on: July 11, 2016, 04:17:41 PM »
Not that I'm aware of they do not, I think they might just shot peen the center section to help with the stress.

Offline Sammconn

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #238 on: July 11, 2016, 08:26:15 PM »
Wow some beautiful country!
Good thing you broke I the way home.

The suck factor would be high up on top icons of the passes.
I just don't want to wind up missing a digit or limb.  I can sometimes get in a hurry to get results.
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #239 on: July 12, 2016, 04:59:10 PM »
The parts are starting to be delivered!

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #240 on: July 13, 2016, 09:30:15 AM »
Purdy!

Someone here talked me into some billet flywheel, I seem to remember...Was that you?  ;-))
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #241 on: July 14, 2016, 02:01:55 PM »
Nope that was not me UNLESS you said you were making 800hp/1000Tq and the truck sits in your garage 98.986% of the time, I got a billet unit originally but sent it back after they told me that I had to run a spacer between the tranny and adapter plate because of the thickness. Not all of the billets require that, and DISCOLSURE the Cummins units are MADE IN CHINA!

Since my truck dose not tow and I don't have the power turned way up a stock unit will meet my needs.  When I repower/refresh  the Engine /tranny I will most likely put in an updated unit.

Offline BobbyB

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #242 on: July 14, 2016, 05:06:53 PM »
UNLESS the truck sits in your garage 98.986% of the time,



 ;D
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 05:07:36 PM by BobbyB »
So, Bobby...being the calculating trained warrior NCO that you are.  Take the appropriate action, Execute!
your standard grunt level CQB is just putting rounds and rounds on scary stuff till it stops scaring you!

Offline JR

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #243 on: July 14, 2016, 06:04:18 PM »
Nope that was not me UNLESS you said you were making 800hp/1000Tq and the truck sits in your garage 98.986% of the time.

I don't think you needed to be talked into it. It was the best, so you bought it, simple.

 8) :-[ ;D :o
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #244 on: July 14, 2016, 06:21:37 PM »
Guys I think I made a mistake in the calculation, When I did the original calculation I went thru the whole SquareD thread and I only found one occurrence of said truck moving out the spot it has been in since its build commenced but upon closer scrutiny of the data I found two occurrences of SquareD rolling out of the garage.  So the new number is 99.897% under protected cover time!  Sorry Don but I corrected my mistake! 

Offline cudakidd53

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #245 on: July 14, 2016, 07:37:23 PM »
Wow, it's getting rough on poor Don!  NONE of us do/attempt the current number of projects that he's juggling.......plus a young boy with jungle crotch rot!
2012 Silverado LTZ - Duramax
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Online Flyin6

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #246 on: July 14, 2016, 08:49:04 PM »
Guys I think I made a mistake in the calculation, When I did the original calculation I went thru the whole SquareD thread and I only found one occurrence of said truck moving out the spot it has been in since its build commenced but upon closer scrutiny of the data I found two occurrences of SquareD rolling out of the garage.  So the new number is 99.897% under protected cover time!  Sorry Don but I corrected my mistake! 
You're forgiven...sort of...

Possibly banned in the near future, but G-T-G for the moment ;-)
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #247 on: July 18, 2016, 11:33:33 AM »
RC is mobile again, didn't find any other issues everything went back together very smoothly.

The engine is noticeably smoother!

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #248 on: July 25, 2016, 01:11:28 PM »
So as most of you know the electrical systems on the Dodges are let say “a little bit lacking”, I got pretty fed up with the AC system when on the way back from Colorado the blower fan decided to stop running in 110 degree heat.  So I do some research on what could be done.

  Dodge really has not updated how the systems work in these trucks/cars, when you have Max AC selected and the fan on high in theory you are supposed to have full battery voltage at the fan motor.  This is never the case, maybe the day it left the factory but I doubt it mine was only getting 9.8V one time I got 10.5V so there in a lot of resistance in the entire system .  So technology has improved and now we have what are known as PWM (Pulse Width Module or Modulation) what these units do is pulse 12v to whatever you are powering but at full battery amperage.  This is basically done with capacitors but you get the idea. 

These units are fairly cheap the basic units are anywhere from 10 to 20 dollars and could be gotten from many different places.  I found one on Ebay, it was a higher end model but it had features I wanted.  Most of these units need to be mounted in an enclosure but need airflow because there is heat generated I mounted mine in the cab under the AC box. I installed a relay and 12ga wire, this system is 100% isolated from the factory AC system and the way I did the wiring I still have that system if the PWM gives problems.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/371521297570?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

So far it has made a night and difference in the performance of the AC system, my AC system was marginal even with good window tenting now the people in the back seat can at least get some relief.  Long term I will keep everyone posted to make sure these units are dependable.  Pictures coming!
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 01:15:11 PM by wilsonphil »

Online Flyin6

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Re: Ramcharger Build
« Reply #249 on: July 26, 2016, 10:21:47 AM »
Thanks for that link!

I was just looking over the AC wiring/control in SquareD

You may recall I cut the computer and it's wiring harness completely out of the truck

Consequently, a lot the systems no longer work, so I am having to hard wire them and am just slowly sorting through the thing. Sometime I will finally get that roof mounter cooler (Condenser) mounted and run some lines.

Right now the normal fan switch works normally. However, I think the actual Compressor cycle circuit may not. So I have to sort through that thing. This control unit would add electronics to the truck, which I don't want, but would solve for the iffy fan control.
Site owner    Isaiah 6:8, Psalm 91 
NSDQ      Author of the books: Distant Thunder and Thoren

 

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