REAL MAN TRUCKWORKS & SURVIVAL

WEAPONS => Firearms => Topic started by: Bear9350 on January 18, 2016, 01:29:53 PM

Title: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on January 18, 2016, 01:29:53 PM
I'm planning on purchasing something in the near future.  It sounds like there are a few guys with knowledge/ experience on in this area so I thought I might lay it out on here and ask for opinions.

I haven't entirely decided what caliber I wanted to go with.  First I was thinking 308 but after doing some reading I'm not sure about it.  Then I considered the 300WM or 300WSM.  I had a cousin that was in the right place at the right time and got a smoking deal on a 7mm mag so I started thinking about that.  Also I have thought about 338. 

Right now I think the .300Win-Mag is the route I would go... maybe.

Right now I would like to keep the actual gun purchase around a grand.  I want to be able to afford to shoot it on a somewhat regular basis.  I can shoot up to about 300 yards by walking out the back door of the house.  I do plan on reloading for it though.

So if anybody has any thoughts or opinions let me hear it.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Flyin6 on January 18, 2016, 02:29:22 PM
For 300 meters, the .308 is more than adequate. It is an effective cartridge for use out to 800 meters, possibly 900.
I assume you are talking about shooting deer sized game or paper punching or in the context of this site, a self defense caliber.
If I had shots that were typically in the far side of the .308 range, then the .300 WM is a very good cartridge. That caliber was used as a sniper gun very effectively out past 1000 yards. I own one and it has been a great shooter since the early 80's when I made it mine.
The .270 and 7mm Rem Mag are great long shooters as well. These days the 6.5 cartridges like the Grendel are way long shooters because of excellent bullet coefficient of size vs weight and power.
The standard nato 7.62 X 51 or .308 is probably about the perfect cartridge there is. Available everywhere. Powerful, Kills anything, inexpensive vs a .300 and is proven in everything from combat to long range competitive shooting to your annual deer hunt.
The other .30 cartridges are so-so in my view. The new .300 and the 7.62 X 39 rusky rounds. They have good performance in close but run out of spunk pdq.

Again we return to the .308 which is probably the standard by which other cartridges are compared.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on January 18, 2016, 02:45:36 PM
For 300 meters, the .308 is more than adequate. It is an effective cartridge for use out to 800 meters, possibly 900.
I assume you are talking about shooting deer sized game or paper punching or in the context of this site, a self defense caliber.
If I had shots that were typically in the far side of the .308 range, then the .300 WM is a very good cartridge. That caliber was used as a sniper gun very effectively out past 1000 yards. I own one and it has been a great shooter since the early 80's when I made it mine.
The .270 and 7mm Rem Mag are great long shooters as well. These days the 6.5 cartridges like the Grendel are way long shooters because of excellent bullet coefficient of size vs weight and power.
The standard nato 7.62 X 51 or .308 is probably about the perfect cartridge there is. Available everywhere. Powerful, Kills anything, inexpensive vs a .300 and is proven in everything from combat to long range competitive shooting to your annual deer hunt.
The other .30 cartridges are so-so in my view. The new .300 and the 7.62 X 39 rusky rounds. They have good performance in close but run out of spunk pdq.

Again we return to the .308 which is probably the standard by which other cartridges are compared.

I plan on using it for deer hunting pushing 400 yards and would like to be able to shoot it confidently paper punching beyond that.  Initially I was looking at the .308 but then I read something that the 308 starts losing velocity after about 300 yards and beyond may not retain enough energy to properly expand a hunting round.  That is not to say it is not accurate at those ranges.  I'm pulling that out of the memory banks from some reading I did a couple months ago. 
The cost effectiveness and availability of ammo is definitely a plus for the .308 that is hard to ignore.

Edit:  I somehow managed to find the article I read that had me questioning the .308. http://www.gunsandammo.com/hunting/ga-perspectives-does-the-308-fit-the-long-range-hunting-bill/
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: BobbyB on January 18, 2016, 03:13:53 PM
Is this going to be a dedicated range round or you want a dual purpose round?

If dedicated range round,

Stick with 308 as a beginning. Ammo is easier to find until you get into reloading. Once you get into reloading and get good (or better) at it then you should look into upgrading. A Remington 700 will generally be around $600ish, leaving you money towards optics or ammo.

Once you get to where you want to stretch it out further and you can look into the 6.5s. I've heard good, nay great things about the 6.5 Creedmore and the 6.5x47 Lapua. You could even sell the starter rifle to help fund the upgrade.

If you want a dual purpose rifle; hunting or range rifle

The 7mm would be a good choice. It's got a pretty flat trajectory and ammo is relatively easy to find. Again once you start reloading it SHOULDN'T be a problem to work up an accurate round.

300 WM would also be a good round for dual purpose but, in my opinion, kinda of overkill for the local game in the realistic hunting areas.

30-06 is often overlooked, but can be quite accurate once you figure out what load your rifle likes best. Plus side, ammo is VERY easily found.


The above is my personal opinion. I'd go 308 for a range only round, but for dual sport, I'm 50/50 on the 30-06 or 7MM.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: KensAuto on January 18, 2016, 04:01:22 PM
I'm a big fan of the 7mm....so much so that i have 2...for hunting and sometimes for range day. They've taken bull elk at 300ish yards, and a deer at 600.
...but I'm also with these guys on the 308. It's cheaper at the range, and if you've never killed at long range (500 plus) I would recommend lots of range time to ensure accuracy for humane kills.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on January 18, 2016, 04:02:35 PM
Ideally I would like something I can shoot on the range regularly but occasionally hunt with.  This wouldn't be replacing my normal deer hunting rifle, a Remington model 7600 in .270.  This would be the gun I stand up in the corner of the hunting shack in case the big buck decides to appear at the edge of the field 300-400 yards out while everybody is standing around bs'ing.

I already reload for my .223.  That gun I purchased to have as a range gun and normally shoot a couple times a month.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: BobbyB on January 18, 2016, 04:11:21 PM
Ideally I would like something I can shoot on the range regularly but occasionally hunt with.  This wouldn't be replacing my normal deer hunting rifle, a Remington model 7600 in .270.  This would be the gun I stand up in the corner of the hunting shack in case the big buck decides to appear at the edge of the field 300-400 yards out while everybody is standing around bs'ing.

I already reload for my .223.  That gun I purchased to have as a range gun and normally shoot a couple times a month.

30-06 or 7MM. Leaning more towards 30-06.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: KensAuto on January 18, 2016, 06:22:51 PM
30-06...definately enough for whitetails....




...grizzlies, maybe even elephants...lol
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on January 18, 2016, 06:33:23 PM
I had considered the 30-06 a little but hadn't put much thought into it.  Nobody send to talk about that caliber much even though they are pretty common.  Already around here it is not considered very often even though alot of guys hunt with them.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Atkinsmatt on January 18, 2016, 07:33:48 PM
You can load them up to 220 grains or down around 125.  Pretty versatile round that the military used a lot (1903 series, BAR)until they started going to the common nato round for everything.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Sammconn on January 18, 2016, 08:39:15 PM
These guys ^^^ have covered it well.

Now, depending on your take of 'long range' the aforementioned 6.5 variants seen to be where it's at in the bench rest world.

I've used my 308 effectively out to 400 on deer, and with tuning and trigger time, I'm sure it would go farther. I'm saying 308 as well for the availability and economy of ammo. Sure the others are nearly as abundant depending on location, so in the end it's what you feel comfortable with.

These days I use my 300 WM exclusively. Yeah it will be disastrous with a poorly placed shot, however I grew up in the grain fields of the 1/2 mile fence line. (Read shot.)

My thoughs are any of the ones mentioned would be good.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: TexasRedNeck on January 18, 2016, 09:49:02 PM
I do plan on reloading for it though.

So if anybody has any thoughts or opinions let me hear it.

All good suggestions so far.  Since you said you will reload, here are my preferences.

308 is a good all purpose round.  I make hits routinely to 1000 yards with mine, and that with only a 20 inch barrel.

I have a 300WM too.  It's not nearly as pleasant to shoot, especially unsurpressed.

Now, my next build will be a 300WSM.  IMO the best all around cartridge, especially if you reload. 

Why? The short action makes for a much handier and lighter rifle.  The large diameter, short cartridge has improved ballistics over the long 300WM.  The powder column has a faster burn rate.  You can load just about any .30 projectile in it.  Load it down with a 150-160 gn bullet with less powder to manage the recoil and be effective on most game out to 400 easy.  Load it up with a high BC projectile like the Berger VLD Hunting in 220gn with a .625 G1 BC and you can get out there a long, long way.  Easy to 1200. 

7WSM is another great cartridge but for some reason it wears out barrels quicker (throat erosion)  Expect 5000 rounds max out of a barrel.

Stay away from the .338 unless you win the lotto.  Can easily run $4 a round to load and unless you are a goon, humping that thing on a stalk is painful.

My next build, as I mentioned, will be based on a Remy 700 short action with the 300WSM, an ultralight stock and drilled and lightened receiver and a tapered barrel.  Expect it to come in around 7lb without scope.  Should shoot 1/2 moa all day long.  Just with the lighter barrels you have to take care to not overheat it with rapid fire.

You can probably find a nice used 700 Remington for about what you want to spend and then have a smith true the action and re-barrel it later. 

I would look for a Alaskan TI in 300WSM if you can find it.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/983469084/REMINGTON-MODEL-700-ALASKAN-Ti-300-WSM-AS-NEW.htm


Otherwise something like this would be a good start and well under your budget

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=537721451
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=537788725


Let us know what you end up with.  Take care
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on January 25, 2016, 01:18:24 PM
Did some more looking over the weekend.  Considering the Remington 700 SPS Varmint in .308.  26" heavy barrel weighing 8-1/2 lbs.  The weight doesn't bother me as I don't plan on carrying this gun into the field.

http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?pdesc=Remington-Model-700-SPS-Varmint-Centerfire-Rifle&i=416665
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Dawg25385 on January 25, 2016, 01:26:50 PM
I almost bought that same gun when i was looking, but opted for the Savage Model 16 with the sporter barrel, as i would be carrying in the field...

The 700 SPS is definitely nice though for the money.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on January 25, 2016, 01:48:00 PM
I almost bought that same gun when i was looking, but opted for the Savage Model 16 with the sporter barrel, as i would be carrying in the field...

The 700 SPS is definitely nice though for the money.

I have spent a lot of time looking at the Savage model 16/116 also.  My .223 is a Savage Model 16 and I really like it.  But with the Savage priced about $300 more I can spend $150 on a Timney trigger for the Remington and have another $150 left to spend on ammo.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: BobbyB on January 25, 2016, 05:03:13 PM
Did some more looking over the weekend.  Considering the Remington 700 SPS Varmint in .308.  26" heavy barrel weighing 8-1/2 lbs.  The weight doesn't bother me as I don't plan on carrying this gun into the field.

http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?pdesc=Remington-Model-700-SPS-Varmint-Centerfire-Rifle&i=416665


Nice choice. Plus you can always shorten the barrel if you decide to later on.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: TexasRedNeck on January 25, 2016, 09:46:45 PM
Congratulations.  The trigger is the most important connection between you and the weapon.  I suggest a Jewell HVR over the timney.  More expensive but worth it.

A 308 is easy on the barrell and you can expect 10-15k rounds before it is worn out.  With the 26 inch barrel you have a lot of room to work with velocity in burning up powder.

I have some software I can model loads for you if you have some ideas.  Just let me know.

Look forward to a range report.  8 1/2 pounds is not bad.  My GA precision 308 clocks in at 14 with scope.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: BobbyB on January 26, 2016, 09:24:22 AM
Nobody seems to talk about that caliber much even though they are pretty common.

People don't talk about them as it's an older round and it isn't one of the new flashier ones, nor is there much available in a commercial loaded match round. Well, it IS available, just not as easy to get as going to WalMart, Fleet Farm or most outdoor store; like you can with the hunting choices, well generally.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: JR on January 26, 2016, 02:32:02 PM
Guess I will just keep my old 7mm, but it does need to be re-scoped for sure.

I just saw that Savage has a new Scout in 308 under 8 lb and a 22wmr in semi. Been looking for a rifle to compliment my PMR30.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on February 08, 2016, 09:00:22 AM
Stopped in to Scheel's yesterday to check out there gun safe options.  Now that the remodel on the house is finishing up I want to have a designated place for the firepower.

On the way out I browsed through the rifles and ran across the Rem Model 700 Varmint I thinking about.  Picked it up to look at it to find out the one they had was in .308 and the price tag they had on it matched the best deal I was able to find online.  So it came home with me.

For a factory trigger I don't think it is half bad.  It has Remington's adjustable trigger on it (I don't recall what they call it) that can be adjusted down to 2.5 lbs I think and it feels fairly crisp.  I'm  hoping to get a scope on it and have it ready to send some lead down range in two weeks when I head back up north for the weekend.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Flyin6 on February 08, 2016, 09:02:28 AM
Stopped in to Scheel's yesterday to check out there gun safe options.  Now that the remodel on the house is finishing up I want to have a designated place for the firepower.

On the way out I browsed through the rifles and ran across the Rem Model 700 Varmint I thinking about.  Picked it up to look at it to find out the one they had was in .308 and the price tag they had on it matched the best deal I was able to find online.  So it came home with me.

For a factory trigger I don't think it is half bad.  It has Remington's adjustable trigger on it (I don't recall what they call it) that can be adjusted down to 2.5 lbs I think and it feels fairly crisp.  I'm  hoping to get a scope on it and have it ready to send some lead down range in two weeks when I head back up north for the weekend.
I had one of those guns with the heavy barrel in 6mm. Shot it in Deutschland quite a bit. I think BDL's make great bolt guns.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: BobbyB on February 08, 2016, 09:21:19 AM
Stopped in to Scheel's yesterday to check out there gun safe options.  Now that the remodel on the house is finishing up I want to have a designated place for the firepower.

On the way out I browsed through the rifles and ran across the Rem Model 700 Varmint I thinking about.  Picked it up to look at it to find out the one they had was in .308 and the price tag they had on it matched the best deal I was able to find online.  So it came home with me.

For a factory trigger I don't think it is half bad.  It has Remington's adjustable trigger on it (I don't recall what they call it) that can be adjusted down to 2.5 lbs I think and it feels fairly crisp.  I'm  hoping to get a scope on it and have it ready to send some lead down range in two weeks when I head back up north for the weekend.

Congrats on the purchase. What scope you going to throw on it?
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on February 08, 2016, 09:45:21 AM
Not sure yet.  I just put a Nikon Prostaff 4-12x40 on the .223.  For $190 it is a good scope with clear lens but I think I may want something with a little higher power.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: BobbyB on February 08, 2016, 09:57:26 AM
Not sure yet.  I just put a Nikon Prostaff 4-12x40 on the .223.  For $190 it is a good scope with clear lens but I think I may want something with a little higher power.

Not bad.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on February 09, 2016, 12:32:52 PM
I think I have settled on the Vortex Crossfire 2 in 6-18x44.  My uncle has a set if the binoculars and likes them.   The reviews seem to look good also.   I have heard great things about there lifetime warranty.  There headquarters are here in WI and also where there manufacturing facility is.

http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-crossfire-ii-6-18x44-ao-rifle-scope.html
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: BobbyB on February 09, 2016, 03:31:28 PM
I think I have settled on the Vortex Crossfire 2 in 6-18x44.  My uncle has a set if the binoculars and likes them.   The reviews seem to look good also.   I have heard great things about there lifetime warranty.  There headquarters are here in WI and also where there manufacturing facility is.

http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-crossfire-ii-6-18x44-ao-rifle-scope.html

Vortex is a good choice to top the rifle. I know it doesn't apply to you with a bolt action, but Midwest Industries is also in Wisconsin, as well as Bravo Company USA, I think relatively in the same area.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on February 16, 2016, 09:05:33 AM
Scope and mounts arrived yesterday.

I ordered the "Game Reaper" scope mount from DNZ.  It is a one piece aluminum mount so I didn't need to worry about alignment. 

(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Bear9350/KIMG0044_zpsjgb9qg8u.jpg) (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/Bear9350/media/KIMG0044_zpsjgb9qg8u.jpg.html)

The scope rings also have a lot more thread engagement then most scope rings do to keep everything tight.

(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Bear9350/KIMG0050_zpsnlppjvqm.jpg) (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/Bear9350/media/KIMG0050_zpsnlppjvqm.jpg.html)


I went with there low height version.  I emailed them with my gun and scope specs and asked if I needed low or medium.  They said low should work.  I just have clearance to the barrel.  The scope covers that came with it don't fully fit between the lens and barrel.  If I screw the sun shade on that came with the scope the covers fit though.

(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Bear9350/KIMG0051_zpsv2w7q3e8.jpg) (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/Bear9350/media/KIMG0051_zpsv2w7q3e8.jpg.html)

With the low mounted scope it will be a little more difficult to load as it is a top load.  I was a little concerned that the one piece mount might interfere also but I don't thin it will be a problem.  I might consider purchasing a conversion kit to change it to a detachable mag.

(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Bear9350/KIMG0053_zpsz7m6io4d.jpg) (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/Bear9350/media/KIMG0053_zpsz7m6io4d.jpg.html)

The Vortex scope seemed clear even cranked up to the 18 power magnification.  There was a generous amount of eye relief also.  I was able to push the scope nearly as far forward as possible in the scope mounts.  I was happy with everything so I plan to take it apart some time this week and torque everything down correctly.  I will hopefully have time to get to the range this weekend to sight it in and see how it shoots.

(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Bear9350/KIMG0056_zpso1iy0xzv.jpg) (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/Bear9350/media/KIMG0056_zpso1iy0xzv.jpg.html)

I had to do all this on the kitchen table.  I've been busy with the remodel etc.. and haven't had time to set my bench back up in the basement.  Need to get that done soon though so I can load some rounds up.



Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Atkinsmatt on February 16, 2016, 12:24:57 PM
Looks great.  At first, watch the ejection.  If it is a little harder to load there could be an issue with ejecting the brass.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: JR on February 16, 2016, 12:45:40 PM
Those would be a nice upgrade for my old 10-22.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on February 29, 2016, 10:18:23 AM
Shot it this weekend.  No pics as I wasn't real impressed with it.  Hoping it was a combination of the cheap ammo I bought and not breaking the barrel in yet and not me or the gun.

I think I might try returning the scope too.  I was just wearing a flannel and light jacket shooting yesterday and couldn't get the lens far enough away from my eye without pulling my head back.  The scope seems to have a decent amount of eye relief, just not where I need it.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: BobbyB on February 29, 2016, 12:42:27 PM
Shot it this weekend.  No pics as I wasn't real impressed with it.  Hoping it was a combination of the cheap ammo I bought and not breaking the barrel in yet and not me or the gun.

I think I might try returning the scope too.  I was just wearing a flannel and light jacket shooting yesterday and couldn't get the lens far enough away from my eye without pulling my head back.  The scope seems to have a decent amount of eye relief, just not where I need it.

Try emailing Vortex, and see what they say. Might allow you to do an upgrade or something. You aren't far from their HQ are you?
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on February 29, 2016, 01:12:54 PM

Try emailing Vortex, and see what they say. Might allow you to do an upgrade or something. You aren't far from their HQ are you?

I will do that and I will probably swap one of my Nikon scopes on it to see what I think.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: BobbyB on February 29, 2016, 03:37:52 PM
I will do that and I will probably swap one of my Nikon scopes on it to see what I think.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: OldKooT on March 01, 2016, 08:45:01 AM
Let us know how it shoots after you get 100rds through it or so. My son's 700 varmint never shot better than POB @100 yrds   "point of barn"  2.42" the best group it shot.

In fact he just had it re barreled and trued and the usual smiting done...I will let you know how that turned out when he gets out to shoot it. I will say the "smith" was less than impressed with the mess when he started.






 
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on March 01, 2016, 10:11:18 AM
Let us know how it shoots after you get 100rds through it or so. My son's 700 varmint never shot better than POB @100 yrds   "point of barn"  2.42" the best group it shot.

In fact he just had it re barreled and trued and the usual smiting done...I will let you know how that turned out when he gets out to shoot it. I will say the "smith" was less than impressed with the mess when he started.

2.5" was about it was shooting Sunday.  Put 40 rounds through it so far.  Cleaned it for the second time last night.  Hoping to put some more rounds through it this week yet then swap a different scope onto it and see what happens.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bob Smith on March 01, 2016, 09:54:09 PM
If I am shooting paper only, it gets cleaned after about every 10 rounds. Any more than that the groups really widen out. If you are still breaking it in, well I think you are beyond that stage now so no matter.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: TexasRedNeck on March 01, 2016, 10:08:54 PM
http://www.badgerordnance.com/remington-long-action-scope-rail.html

take a look at this rail system.  I use this on my rifles.  Gets you 20MOA built in elevation and you can move the scope forward as needed to make the relief work
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on March 11, 2016, 02:38:46 PM
http://www.badgerordnance.com/remington-long-action-scope-rail.html

take a look at this rail system.  I use this on my rifles.  Gets you 20MOA built in elevation and you can move the scope forward as needed to make the relief work

I started looking into rails.  I'm wondering if a 20MOA would be appropriate for what I want to do with this gun.  Nearly all of my shooting will be within 600 yards I think and some out to 800.  By my figuring I would be shooting nearly two feet high between 250 and 550 yards?  Does that seem correct?  I graphed what I am imagining in one of the trajectory vs. line of sight charts you put up.  I am thinking I must be missing something.  The blue and green lines are what I imagine the new line of sight would be with a 10 and 20MOA adjustment respectively.

(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Bear9350/20MOA%20Sightline_zps5ljgtvgp.png) (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/Bear9350/media/20MOA%20Sightline_zps5ljgtvgp.png.html)
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: TexasRedNeck on March 11, 2016, 08:21:19 PM
20 MOA is fine.  Remember, you use elevation to zero the rifle.  So you'll zero the rifle with the turret biased towards to top of the travel, which will give you an additional 20moa of downward travel.  No problem zeroing the rifle at 100 with a 20moa rail.  Have them on all my precision rifles.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on March 11, 2016, 11:24:13 PM
20 MOA is fine.  Remember, you use elevation to zero the rifle.  So you'll zero the rifle with the turret biased towards to top of the travel, which will give you an additional 20moa of downward travel.  No problem zeroing the rifle at 100 with a 20moa rail.  Have them on all my precision rifles.

I was talking to a co worker after I posted and realized I was thinking about it wrong.  It just moves the zero up in the scope to give you more adjustment down.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on March 29, 2016, 08:57:56 AM
Let us know how it shoots after you get 100rds through it or so. My son's 700 varmint never shot better than POB @100 yrds   "point of barn"  2.42" the best group it shot.

In fact he just had it re barreled and trued and the usual smiting done...I will let you know how that turned out when he gets out to shoot it. I will say the "smith" was less than impressed with the mess when he started.

Shot it again yesterday after getting the scope re-mounted with a new rail and scope mounts.  Rounds 60-80 I think.  I had a five shoot group at 1.7".  There was one flyer that I new was off as soon as I squeezed.  If I throw that one out it would have been a 0.8" group at 100 yards.

These were 20 rounds of American Eagle 150 gr FMJ BT stuff from a coworker.  They have another 840 rounds for sale and asking $.75/rd for it.  Might try to talk them down some on the price and pick it up.
Title: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: TexasRedNeck on March 29, 2016, 01:32:02 PM
Bear, not picking on you. Just an recollection of many an Internet marksmen but I love how many a "marksman" I've encountered likes to throw out "the outlier" or call 3 shots a group. In the real world an outlier is still a miss in 10-15mph crosswind at 800. The steel rings or it doesn't. Or for you real been there done that types, it's a kill or it's not which can get innocents/friendlies hurt or killed if you miss the shot.

Your groups are great with a factory rifle and factory ammo. I would invest in a high quality trigger as it has the biggest return on investment. From there you argue about 1/8ths and each 1/8th costs about $1000


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Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: BobbyB on March 29, 2016, 02:15:41 PM
Shot it again yesterday after getting the scope re-mounted with a new rail and scope mounts.  Rounds 60-80 I think.  I had a five shoot group at 1.7".  There was one flyer that I new was off as soon as I squeezed.  If I throw that one out it would have been a 0.8" group at 100 yards.

These were 20 rounds of American Eagle 150 gr FMJ BT stuff from a coworker.  They have another 840 rounds for sale and asking $.75/rd for it.  Might try to talk them down some on the price and pick it up.

I'm thinking those groups are good. You said you wanted it for deer hunting back up and 2-300 yds range time. You are well covered by what you posted as group sizes.

Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on March 29, 2016, 02:51:55 PM
Bear, not picking on you. Just an recollection of many an Internet marksmen but I love how many a "marksman" I've encountered likes to throw out "the outlier" or call 3 shots a group. In the real world an outlier is still a miss in 10-15mph crosswind at 800. The steel rings or it doesn't. Or for you real been there done that types, it's a kill or it's not which can get innocents/friendlies hurt or killed if you miss the shot.

Your groups are great with a factory rifle and factory ammo. I would invest in a high quality trigger as it has the biggest return on investment. From there you argue about 1/8ths and each 1/8th costs about $1000


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No worries.  The main reason I bought this gun was to shoot it and improve my skills, I know they are not there yet.  I was just trying to give an accurate representation of what I think the gun would is capable.  At this point the gun is more capable than I am.  I've been thinking about adding a better trigger but I've been doing some reading and I'm not sure how much more money I want to stick into this relatively cheap gun.  I'll probably just keep shooting as is for now.

I generally base my groups of 5 shoots, that seems like the bare minimum to me.  As and engineer the number 30 is thrown around a lot for these types of things.  Generally an average of 30 repetitions of whatever you have is a good statistical representation of the actual process.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: TexasRedNeck on March 29, 2016, 03:20:03 PM
That's only a cheap gun because it lacks things of a more expensive rifle. Captain obvious, huh?  By that I mean you add to it as money allows and you'll end up with a very capable weapon system. The Remy 700 action is the basis for the vast majority of precision rifles. Add a trigger. Improve your groups. Hand load and improve your groups. When the barrel is worn out install a new barrel and blueprint the action.  Greatly improve your groups. Then add furniture of your choice and a big ole honking telescope. You have a rifle that will rival anything on the planet in similar caliber. 

So the good news is you don't lose any money investing as you go and you get to use up the factory barrel while improving your skills, making you ready to maximize your new found hardware  accuracy when the time comes.

Keep up the good work


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Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on March 29, 2016, 03:46:20 PM
That's only a cheap gun because it lacks things of a more expensive rifle. Captain obvious, huh?  By that I mean you add to it as money allows and you'll end up with a very capable weapon system. The Remy 700 action is the basis for the vast majority of precision rifles. Add a trigger. Improve your groups. Hand load and improve your groups. When the barrel is worn out install a new barrel and blueprint the action.  Greatly improve your groups. Then add furniture of your choice and a big ole honking telescope. You have a rifle that will rival anything on the planet in similar caliber. 

So the good news is you don't lose any money investing as you go and you get to use up the factory barrel while improving your skills, making you ready to maximize your new found hardware  accuracy when the time comes.

Keep up the good work



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That was the initial plan but the more I read about the Remington SPS the more I was questioning if it made since to do that or just invest in a better gun.  The two big improvements I could see myself making first would be the trigger and the stock.  In the meantime I will just keep shooting it.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: BobbyB on March 29, 2016, 05:04:47 PM
That was the initial plan but the more I read about the Remington SPS the more I was questioning if it made since to do that or just invest in a better gun.  The two big improvements I could see myself making first would be the trigger and the stock.  In the meantime I will just keep shooting it.

I'd keep what you got and develop a load your rifle likes.

As for investing in a better rifle, over time you'll build the rifle you want, off what you already have, vs buying what someone in a building far removed from you, says you want. Just like trucks there isn't a perfect vehicle off the factory floor. Everyone changes something on them. Do what TRN said, shoot the crap out of yours, when the time comes for a better scope snag it, then the action and barrel and stock, develop your own loads. You'll be better off than someone who bought a super fancy premium gunshop built rifle, who has NO time behind it.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: TexasRedNeck on March 29, 2016, 08:26:06 PM
I'll make you a deal Bear.  If you buy a Jewell HVR trigger and you don't think it was worth the money or improved your groups, I'll buy it from you for what you paid for it plus shipping.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: OldKooT on March 30, 2016, 07:50:30 AM
Us old farmers are not where I'd seek advice... that said, your accuracy is now well within deer death range.  5 shot groups are fine, so are 3 shot groups, so are any other number you find interesting. For most real world situations...it's the 1st shot that matters.

It's your 1st cold barrel shot that makes or breaks a hunting rifle/shooter. I always "practice" one shot, one hit, one grade. (once I have determined the guns capable of what I desire) I heavily subscribe to the concept, you only need one shot.

I am with TRN, buy a quality trigger at some point. It won't help the weapon shoot, but it will improve your skills. A quality adjustable trigger will allow you to be more consistent and tighten things up on the paper. Most importantly, it will allow you that controlled confident 1st important shot time and time again, after some practice.

Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: JR on March 30, 2016, 12:54:11 PM
That is some of the best advice I have seen posted here.  If the gun will perform, you adjust to it and know it.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on March 30, 2016, 03:02:13 PM
Alright, it seems like it is unanimous.  I'll plan on getting a trigger.  From the little research I have done it sounds like one of the plusses for the Jewel triggers is that they are packaged in such a away I should be able to install my self safely, correct.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: TexasRedNeck on March 31, 2016, 08:07:24 PM
Yes.  Pull the action from the stock.  Drive out 2 pins and replace.

good step by step here

https://snapguide.com/guides/change-your-rem-700-trigger/
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on September 28, 2016, 08:51:28 AM
Earlier this week I bought a new stock for this gun.  Should get here the end of the week.  It is a Greyboe Renegade.  Greyboe is a fairly new company.  Somehow they are affiliated with McMillan and the Renegade uses the McMillan A5 stock shape.  Should make a nice improvement over the SPS factory stock.  I purchased the option that was already inletted for a detachable bottom metal.  I've got a few options I am considering and should be making a purchase by the end of the week.  Don't want to spend the money on a Badger Ordinance system for this gun but I want a good fit into the gun stock and for the magazines.

I figured I should do the trigger swap while I was at it too.  I've done some reading on the Jewell triggers and am a little concerned about keeping it clean.  This gun won't be in the field a lot but it will get out on occasion and I don't want to need to be worried about cleaning it.  I've read several reviews that the Jewell triggers need to be kept clean.  I know there are several options for the Jewell triggers and am trying to sort out which one is the best option for my needs.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: BobbyB on September 28, 2016, 09:29:59 AM
Earlier this week I bought a new stock for this gun.  Should get here the end of the week.  It is a Greyboe Renegade.  Greyboe is a fairly new company.  Somehow they are affiliated with McMillan and the Renegade uses the McMillan A5 stock shape.  Should make a nice improvement over the SPS factory stock.  I purchased the option that was already inletted for a detachable bottom metal.  I've got a few options I am considering and should be making a purchase by the end of the week.  Don't want to spend the money on a Badger Ordinance system for this gun but I want a good fit into the gun stock and for the magazines.

I figured I should do the trigger swap while I was at it too.  I've done some reading on the Jewell triggers and am a little concerned about keeping it clean.  This gun won't be in the field a lot but it will get out on occasion and I don't want to need to be worried about cleaning it.  I've read several reviews that the Jewell triggers need to be kept clean.  I know there are several options for the Jewell triggers and am trying to sort out which one is the best option for my needs.

Read on another forum that Grayboe is co-owned by the co-founder of McMillian Firearms. Granted I don't know for certain but it's feasible I suppose.

Here's another page talking about them.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/06/27/mcmillian-announces-greyboe-new-mid-teir-stock-company/
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: TexasRedNeck on September 28, 2016, 08:02:06 PM
Jewell triggers need to be kept clean??  I've run several competitions and training classes with my GAP with Jewell and I've never had to treat it any different.  I wouldnt over think it.  If you are going to put a new stock on it, go ahead and glass bed it.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on September 29, 2016, 01:10:40 PM
I've read online that Jewell recommends taking the trigger out for every gun cleaning and cleaning with lighter fluid.  Also read some reports of discharges from bolt lift.  It wasn't clear what these triggers were set at.  It generally seemed to be that if it wasn't set really low there are no issues.  For my needs I would probably set it around 2 lbs and be ok.

Probably going to get the new stock and trigger installed and shot it this fall.  Then bed it sometime this winter. 
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: TexasRedNeck on September 29, 2016, 02:06:42 PM
Yeah I'm at a little over 2 pounds. I drop test mine just to make sure. Come to think of it I don't think I've ever cleaned my trigger....still breaking like glass


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Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on October 05, 2016, 01:33:02 PM
The new stock arrived in the main late last week.  Considering upgrading these types of items is all new to me I can immediately tell a huge improvement in the stiffness of this stock compared to factory synthetic stocks I have handled.  The new stock also seems much more comfortable etc.. 

I ordered the stock for a DBM inlet.  I didn't order that yet so I tried installing the factory BDL bottom metal.  I found by adding a few 1/4" washers as shims to the rear hole between the bottom metal and stock everything bolted up nicely and functioned well.  This should work for the time being.

I am still waiting on ordering the DBM and  a few mags and the new trigger.  The gun fund is a little low right now with all of the home improvements and baby stuff going on.  I've got a few bumpers I am finishing up so hopefully they sell quickly and I can purchase the trigger atleast before deer season.  Hoping to do that and get some load development done before deer season the last week of Nov.

A few pics of the gun in the new stock:

(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Bear9350/KIMG0040_zpsocnjlb7m.jpg~original) (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/Bear9350/media/KIMG0040_zpsocnjlb7m.jpg.html)

(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Bear9350/KIMG0041_zps0e2texen.jpg~original) (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/Bear9350/media/KIMG0041_zps0e2texen.jpg.html)

(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Bear9350/KIMG0042_zps81bwuxvc.jpg~original) (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/Bear9350/media/KIMG0042_zps81bwuxvc.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: BobbyB on October 05, 2016, 02:31:17 PM
OH!! I like that stock!
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: KensAuto on October 05, 2016, 05:57:51 PM
Looks sharp!
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: JR on October 05, 2016, 07:04:17 PM
Very nice
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: TexasRedNeck on October 05, 2016, 07:33:53 PM
Very nice indeed. See if you can get the adjustable cheek rest that bolts through the stock. Makes a big difference in getting a consistent cheek weld and eye position on the scope.


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Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on October 06, 2016, 08:10:48 AM
Very nice indeed. See if you can get the adjustable cheek rest that bolts through the stock. Makes a big difference in getting a consistent cheek weld and eye position on the scope.


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I've been looking at that.  With how low my scope is mounted and the rise of the check rest much higher on this stock it is already much improved.  It could be just a little bit higher though I think.  I was thinking I might just get one of those pads that strap to the stock instead.  I think that would be enough.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: BobbyB on October 06, 2016, 08:40:38 AM
I was thinking I might just get one of those pads that strap to the stock instead.  I think that would be enough.

http://www.blackhawk.com/Products/Long-Gun-Accessories/Long-Gun-Accessories/Cheekpads/Rifle-Cheek-Pad.aspx
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on October 06, 2016, 10:28:38 AM
I was specifically looking at this one.  I few guys recommended this on another forum.  I think the rise would be enough.  Plus it has that handy zipper pouch to stash stuff in.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LXXPPBT/ref=nav_timeline_asin?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&th=1
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: TexasRedNeck on October 06, 2016, 02:12:39 PM
Sure could work. I like a hard check weld. As in pressing my face into it hard enough to feel like bone on hard stock surface. That way I know for sure I'm in the exact same spot. YMMV


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Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on October 17, 2016, 10:15:37 AM
Ordered up a Timney 517 trigger and Magpul DBM last night.

After more reading and research it seemed like a lot of experienced guys recommended the Timney over the Jewel for anything that was not bench only shooting.  Regardless the Timney will be a big improvement over the stock trigger.  If in the future I want to upgrade to the Jewel I know enough guys with stock Rem 700s that I am sure I could sell the Timney to get some cash back on it.

The Magpul DBM was significantly cheaper than all the other options.  The reviews out there all seemed positive on it so I thought I would give it a try.

If it doesn't fit the stock well of the mags don't fit/ function well I plan to send it back and get a PTG piece.

Everything should be in Wed.  That gives me a few days to install before I head up north for the weekend.  I worked up some loads last week that I would like to test out.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: KensAuto on October 17, 2016, 10:34:58 AM
You won't be disappointed with Timney. (They are also a Christian company)
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: BobbyB on October 17, 2016, 12:39:57 PM
  If in the future I want to upgrade to the Jewel I know enough guys with stock Rem 700s that I am sure I could sell the Timney to get some cash back on it.

Found a stock Remington 700 action for sale on Armslist. I was tempted to buy it and eventually do a nice build, alas I had moment of clarity and said "NO..." So had I decided to give in to a crazy idea I probably would buy it from you.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on October 20, 2016, 07:44:25 AM
Got the trigger and DBM yesterday.

First thing up was checking out the DBM.  It is a Magpul piece and it made out of there polymer with steel pillars for the action bolts.  I was rather impressed with it and it seemed like a good quality piece for the price.  I ended up paying about $35 for this piece where the next cheapest alternative is about $130.  Unfortunately it does not appear that Magpul made there DBM a Badger clone so it did not fit properly.  I already started the return process as I do not want to do any inletting work on this stock to make it work.

Next up was the trigger install.  Ken was spot on with them being a Christian company.  They even drop a little prayer card right in the packaging.  Punch a couple pins to remove the factory trigger.  Install the Timney and punch the pins back.  Put the action back on the stock with the factory hinged bottom metal and torqued the action bolts back down.  It really couldn't have been much simpler.

While I was at it I also made some adjustments to the scope to improve eye relief and torqued everything down properly there.

Should be ready to do some shooting over the weekend and check out the loads I worked up.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on November 10, 2016, 08:48:10 AM
I put another 80 rounds through the gun last Saturday.  All of them were loads I worked up.  The whole while I was shooting I wasn't getting the groups I was hoping for.  I was shooting 5 round groups at 100 yards.  I could get 3 or 4 out of the 5 that would group great.  Usually touching.  But one or two of them would be flyers, opening my sub 1/2" group up to 2" or so generally. 
I shot about 30 rounds then decided to switch the scopes out to make sure it wasn't the scope.  That didn't help.  Later that night studying the targets a little I determined it had to be me and not the gun.  If I were to lay all the groups on top of each the good portions of my group were very consistent.  For the 7 different groups (35 rounds total) I could watch the good portion of my group slowly drift up as the loads got hotter.
After some research and thinking I believe my issue was a poor/ forced check weld.  After a little more reading I found some examples of a quick and cheap option to build up a check rest.  I grabbed an old mouse pad and cut strips off it and layered it on top of the stock.  It's held in place by wraps of a self adhering bandage.  The bandage doesn't adhere to the stock, only to its self so there is no adhesive stuck to the stock.  To an extent you can also re-use the bandage.  Instead of the typical stuff you could get at the pharmacy I got some from a farm and fleet store.   Generally in the horse area.  this stuff is wider/ longer and much cheaper than the athletic stuff. I can still remove the bolt with it on but will have to take it off to clean the barrel.

Hopefully they get the corn off around the house soon and I have a chance to try it out.

(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Bear9350/KIMG0085_zpsaswrvw3e.jpg~original) (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/Bear9350/media/KIMG0085_zpsaswrvw3e.jpg.html)

(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Bear9350/KIMG0084_zpsol0yvokc.jpg~original) (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/Bear9350/media/KIMG0084_zpsol0yvokc.jpg.html)

(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Bear9350/KIMG0083_zpsuyxezjq8.jpg~original) (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/Bear9350/media/KIMG0083_zpsuyxezjq8.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Flyin6 on November 10, 2016, 09:13:32 AM
That's a cool idea!
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: BobbyB on February 27, 2017, 06:31:25 PM
So hows the rifle and stock treating you?
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on February 28, 2017, 08:13:35 AM
I actually just replaced that Vortex scope with a much nicer Burris XTR II 5-25 x 50.  Mounted it Sunday but it was windy so I waited till last night to shoot it.  The scope is very nice. 

I am still not getting the groups I think I should be able to get with this gun though.  Not sure if it is just a crappy factory Remington action/ barrel, the ammo, just me or a combo of the above.

I feel that I am doing my part.  I may not be able to 1/2 moa but I feel I should be better than the 2+ moa I am seeing.  Most of what I have been shooting has been the factory American Eagle ammo I got cheap but I have also put several reloads combinations down range with no real improvement.  I worked up a load with 175gr SMKs and 43.5 grains of Varget.  From what I have read that is the proverbial perfect load for a factory Remington barrel in 308.  No real improvement was seen.  I wish I new somebody close that knows how to shoot and could send a couple down range with a few different bullet options.  At least then I would know how much of it is me.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: JR on February 28, 2017, 10:09:56 AM
If it is your last round going out the barrel might be heating up.

My 7mm is great for 2-3 rounds, then they fly.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: cudakidd53 on February 28, 2017, 10:34:01 AM
Crown of the barrel messed up?  Really clean the barrel, only pushing patches/brushes forward.  Get out all fouling, copper etc. and shoot a 3 shot group at say 50yrds. waiting several mins. between shots and using sandbags/rest etc.  If they're not close to each other or touching, you've got either crappy trigger, crappy barrel or you're flinching.  I guess checking the fit of the barrel in your stock would be important too; looking for a bind somewhere along the barrel- should be able to slide a dollar bill freely under the barrel and between the stock the entire way down to the action, save for the mounting block of the stock to the barrel. 
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: KensAuto on February 28, 2017, 11:21:14 AM
Are you shooting in a solid rest, or on bags?
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on February 28, 2017, 01:12:15 PM
Shooting off front and rear bag.

The trigger is good.  I'm not flinching.  When I was shooting last night I tried to squeeze one off without realizing I didn't chamber a round.  Cross hairs stayed right on target.  I'm sure some of my fundamentals are flawed but I think I am doing my part better then the results I am seeing.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: JR on February 28, 2017, 01:40:08 PM
Did the Vortex go back?
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on February 28, 2017, 01:44:34 PM
Did the Vortex go back?

Sitting in the safe right now.  It's a nice scope but I don't really have any other needs for it right now so thinking about trying to sell it. 
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: BobbyB on February 28, 2017, 08:36:19 PM
I wish I new somebody close that knows how to shoot and could send a couple down range with a few different bullet options.


If my work schedule would cooperate I'd help you out.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Sammconn on February 28, 2017, 09:46:41 PM
Dave, on your groups.
I hope you are keeping a journal of your load data and results.

If not, start one. It's handy as heck when you can't find 'THE' parts you need to get a load that at least works good. You can look back and go well I got this stuff that wasn't too bad and roll a few up.

Go back and load up some more of the ones you had good groups for the most part with.
Try them again.

Also it takes thousands of repetitions to not make some mistake.
Don't beat yourself or your equipment up. Just keep at it.

If I were to guess one of your previous loads is the one, and something went amiss with shot 4 or 5. Happens everyday to one of us, lord knows I screw up from time to time...maybe even more than that. 
Practice practice practice...
I'm running into disappointments with my handguns.
Not terrible, just not what I want. They say pistol takes even more practice.

(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m605/sammconn/FD5E7732-3C5A-4F66-81F8-5207BC09134E.jpg) (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/sammconn/media/FD5E7732-3C5A-4F66-81F8-5207BC09134E.jpg.html)

I have some grip issues, the appearance of the two groups on the left are all on me...
Just a visual showing a problem, I know the solution, and it's all on me with this one.
This was 150 rounds at about 20 meters, not real great, but definitely minute of scumbag.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: TexasRedNeck on February 28, 2017, 09:48:22 PM
What is the pattern?  Stringing up and down is generally breathing. Left right is slapping the trigger. If you don't have a depth gauge try getting one and handloading with .020 off the lands. Factory barrels are inherently long throated to eat any bullet shape and length safely.


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Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: JR on February 28, 2017, 11:34:50 PM
Those look like my groupings there, at 25 yards. Hated when they had us qual off hand. I could do it, but a few missed.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on March 01, 2017, 07:47:33 AM

If my work schedule would cooperate I'd help you out.

My work schedule is normally flexible.  If a nice day comes up and you want to do some shooting let me know.

What is the pattern?  Stringing up and down is generally breathing. Left right is slapping the trigger. If you don't have a depth gauge try getting one and handloading with .020 off the lands. Factory barrels are inherently long throated to eat any bullet shape and length safely.


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My pattern seems to be all over the place.  On the rare occasion I can get something that appears to look like a pattern it is primarily horizontal stringing.  I've read enough to know that faulty trigger work is normally the cause.

I haven't tried loading off the lands yet.  The last few load work ups I did were to max mag length.  The SMK's have a tangential secant supposedly that is why they are supposed to perform much better in long throated factory barrels.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: BobbyB on March 01, 2017, 08:33:19 AM
My work schedule is normally flexible.  If a nice day comes up and you want to do some shooting let me know.


Will do.
Title: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: TexasRedNeck on March 01, 2017, 12:11:47 PM
Bear my 300WM before it was sent to GAP had such a long throat I had rounds that were .120 over COAL by the book. When GAP sent the rifle back and I measured again I had to run all the rounds I had back through the press and bring them in about .130 to get a short jump into the lands. Before GAP got ahold of it I was shooting 2 inch groups until I moved the rounds out. Then it closed to 3/4.  After GAP worked it over it shoots much better than I do.  It's 3/8 capable but I still flinch with no muzzle break or suppressor on it.


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Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on March 01, 2017, 03:41:03 PM
Did you have them put a new barrel on it or do something to your factory barrel?  I have thought about just getting rid of the factory Remington barrel and replacing it.  Krieger, Bartlien and a few other of the well known barrel manufacturers are within a hours drive from me.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: TexasRedNeck on March 01, 2017, 07:23:16 PM
Yeah they blueprinted the action and put a bartlein barrel on it.


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Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Sammconn on March 01, 2017, 09:00:45 PM
Bear, find out your max OAL from bolt face to lands.
What you find out will maybe give you answer to some of the accuracy issues.

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Determining+COAL.html

I would suggest method two in this article.
But I would alter it slightly.
In addition to a slight neck size I manually 'loosen' the neck slightly to avoid sticking the bullet in the lands too hard. It needs to be tight enough to hold it still and firmly enough to extract and measure, but loose enough so as not to get stuck.
Depending on what you find, excessive jump, no jump you will be able to tailor your OAL.
If it's excessive and mag is too short then you need to decide what to do.

I've done this a few times with different bullets for my Anchutz .222.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bob Smith on March 01, 2017, 09:54:35 PM
Bear, I think I read a few posts back that you will be hunting with this setup. If so, I wouldn't try to over work things to bring 5 shot groups down to 3/4 inch or less. Setting the bullet right at the lands, and too light a trigger could be a problem for a hunting gun. Minute of deer or elk is a whole bunch larger than that, and if you need more than one or two shots chances are the last 3 won't matter anyway. For a hunting rifle, make sure the rifle is sitting in the stock properly and torqued in place. Work up a load using different  bullets and powders, that fit the hunting needs that is. When out practicing, clean the barrel after around 15 shots at most. For my hunting rifles, after the action and stock fit well, the barrel not hitting the stock, and  the trigger is smooth, I can work on reloads and get it shooting around an inch or so for 5 shots. Now if you plan on shooting against Tex, Bobby, Sam, or a couple others here, break out a few more bills cause it will get very spendy.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on March 02, 2017, 07:43:26 AM
Yeah they blueprinted the action and put a bartlein barrel on it.


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I didn't figure you would waste your time trying to set back a factory barrel and I doubt it is something a place like GAP would even waste their time doing.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on March 02, 2017, 08:04:47 AM
Bear, find out your max OAL from bolt face to lands.
What you find out will maybe give you answer to some of the accuracy issues.

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Determining+COAL.html

I would suggest method two in this article.
But I would alter it slightly.
In addition to a slight neck size I manually 'loosen' the neck slightly to avoid sticking the bullet in the lands too hard. It needs to be tight enough to hold it still and firmly enough to extract and measure, but loose enough so as not to get stuck.
Depending on what you find, excessive jump, no jump you will be able to tailor your OAL.
If it's excessive and mag is too short then you need to decide what to do.

I've done this a few times with different bullets for my Anchutz .222.

I've read up on a couple different methods to do this.  I should probably just buy the proper tools to do it though.  They really aren't that expensive.  I should probably load a few rounds up like this just to see what happens.  I would prefer to feed through the magazine though which is why up to this point I have only loaded to the max mag length.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on March 02, 2017, 08:11:28 AM
Bear, I think I read a few posts back that you will be hunting with this setup. If so, I wouldn't try to over work things to bring 5 shot groups down to 3/4 inch or less. Setting the bullet right at the lands, and too light a trigger could be a problem for a hunting gun. Minute of deer or elk is a whole bunch larger than that, and if you need more than one or two shots chances are the last 3 won't matter anyway. For a hunting rifle, make sure the rifle is sitting in the stock properly and torqued in place. Work up a load using different  bullets and powders, that fit the hunting needs that is. When out practicing, clean the barrel after around 15 shots at most. For my hunting rifles, after the action and stock fit well, the barrel not hitting the stock, and  the trigger is smooth, I can work on reloads and get it shooting around an inch or so for 5 shots. Now if you plan on shooting against Tex, Bobby, Sam, or a couple others here, break out a few more bills cause it will get very spendy.

I wouldn't say I intend to hunt with it I guess.  More like shoot a deer with it if one presents itself from the hunting shack when the crew gathers to make plans for the day.  It has a long heavy barrel, with a heavy stock and a heavy scope that I would in no way want to carry around with me.  I have other rifles for that.  This one will primarily be a target gun.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on March 02, 2017, 08:16:02 AM
Just doing a quick re-read I don't think I ever posted I replaced the factory bottom metal/ hinge plate with a PTG bottom metal.  I went with their Stealth Tactical M5 style bottom metal and picked up 5 and 10 round Magpul PMags.  The bottom metal installed nicely.  The mags work well and everything cycles smoothly.
Title: Re: Long Range Caliber Selection
Post by: Bear9350 on September 18, 2017, 02:17:41 PM
Decided to sell this gun.  I wasn't really getting the results I was hoping for out of it and decided I would be better off in the long run selling this gun and going the custom action/ barrel route.  I will get more into that on a new thread I think.

Anyway, here is the gun before I stripped it back down to the factory configuration to sell it.  Should have somebody coming to pick it up tonight along with a some rounds I had loaded up for it.

(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Bear9350/KIMG0223_zpsqsn3mw3r.jpg~original) (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/Bear9350/media/KIMG0223_zpsqsn3mw3r.jpg.html)

(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Bear9350/KIMG0222_zpsx32d3mnt.jpg~original) (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/Bear9350/media/KIMG0222_zpsx32d3mnt.jpg.html)
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