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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #200 on: February 11, 2019, 05:23:07 AM »
that is currently what it’s doing. i’ll get a pic of it ‘floating’ and show that the snap wind isn’t doing anything at all..

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #201 on: February 11, 2019, 07:04:10 AM »
alright. was able to pull up the pics and that’s exactly what i have going on. i was able to follow along with what he was saying with no pics the other day, but now i have a much clearer picture of what the fix is. should be able to do that with little to no issue. just alittle time..

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #202 on: February 11, 2019, 12:57:33 PM »
i do have a question regarding regrooving vs washer. if my stub shaft doesn’t interfer with the locking hub.. would a washer be the better option?

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #203 on: February 11, 2019, 01:29:10 PM »
just got off the phone with warn. guy said that the outer snap ring didn’t do anything on a 60. only really used on the ford 50s where the half shaft could pull out the back of spindle.

not really sure i like the answer. i feel like somerbing has to hold the seal outwards onto the back of the spindle surface..

going to see about dial interference and sourcing a set of washers to hold the shaft seal  to the spindle..0

Offline JR

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #204 on: February 11, 2019, 01:53:54 PM »
Is there any info on that in Vistas dana 60 bible?
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #205 on: February 11, 2019, 02:33:25 PM »
he does a 35 spline conversion but it’s for drive slugs. not lockouts. that article posted earlier on from pirate seems to be the go-to for this. i have to cut the end of the shaft off either way. definitely hitting the dial. when i push the axle shaft outboard it wants to engage. and when i pull it all the way out without the hub/rotor on and turn it back and forth, it doesn’t want to move in and out at all. which i find reassuring for when i regroove it.

Offline KensAuto

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #206 on: February 11, 2019, 02:37:10 PM »
That sounds like a horrible answer. Sounds like they know they have an issue, and don't want to have to recall all of their 35 spline hubs.

Regrooving or using a washer doesn't have anything to do with the hub issue. Grinding off the end of the shaft is the fix for that, if it had that particular issue. I would still use the washers. Just seems like a safer bet...that can be undone if something changes.

Disclaimer: I have never converted to 35 splines, just using common sense...the axle has to be retained outward no matter what. If it starts engaging the hub when driving, the axle is too long, or the hub isn't made properly. ...and, it seems like you're not the first with that issue, according to other websites.

edit: I didn't see your new post about the hub interference.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 02:38:38 PM by KensAuto »
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #207 on: February 11, 2019, 02:40:38 PM »
so.. the issue i found with washers is the the axle shaft has to be cut off on the outboard edge of the existing groove to clean the dial of the warn hub. i’ve used a caliper to confirm this. but it’s exactly the same dimensionally as the post on Pirate.

Offline KensAuto

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #208 on: February 11, 2019, 02:43:52 PM »
Oh wow, didn't realize the groove was out that far.
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #209 on: February 11, 2019, 02:50:00 PM »
mating surface of the hub

.180”



inner dial surface

.120”



leaves me a difference of .060” from the hub to warn hub seal surface to dial surface (inset)

so going back to the ‘stick out’ pic of the axle shaft, the edge of the stub shaft bevel is in line with the outside of the hub.. so set back in .060” and its pretty close to the outer edge of the groove (not enough meat there for my liking..)


Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #210 on: February 11, 2019, 03:46:06 PM »
for better or worse.. it’s done hahaha





now.. off to the store to find an appropriate snap ring as well as another box of rags (and an inner seal for the drivers hub.. now that it’s off)

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #211 on: February 11, 2019, 07:19:17 PM »
alright. well..

idk where to start.

called warn about the order of things going on the axle/inside the hub. the guy didn’t seem to know anything about the small snapring )mentioned in the pirate artical) so he looked up directions. well.. he said what i thought and was mentioned in pirate and that’s that it goes between the end of the spindle and the inner section of the hub body.  there is also a washer that is mentioned in my instructions but isn’t in the box AND would make matters all the worse where it shows it going.

that being said, i tried to reassemble the hub body around tthe newly modified stub shaft. well.. the outer section of the aluminum hub body seems to be too thick (inside to outside) to allow me to ‘thread’ in the large locking ring (not like conventional ones where it’s just a single circle. this is like a flattened out key ring that has to be spun on)

well it’s too tight between hub body and groove in the hub itself. i can only get 1 pass of the lock ring in. moreover, it also says in the the instructions that there should be some ‘float’ of the hub body on the stub shaft.. i’m not getting that.

i can get the hub lock ring to go in the groove if i remove the inner snap ring where it rides on the spindle.. but that’s the only way. and it’s still snug. not floating.

i’m kinda stumped. do i take down the edge lip of the aluminum warn  hub housing to allow the snap ring room to go on and hold it in place? do i disassemble again and take 1/16” off the end of the  spindle and start over? or do i run it without the snap ring on the edge of the spindle between the inner hub and spindle end, still snug in the wheel hub? a combination of all..?

i think the most direct way would be to cut down on the lip of the body to allow more room for the snap ring to slide in while not changing the relationship of the inner and outer warn hub to spindle to outer axle stub..

with no inner snap ring between the inner hub splines and the spindle, i can get it all to lock in place with 1/16” half shaft movement and not hitting the hub dial.

i guess i’m just looking for input/new set of eyes.

i don’t know what i’m doing wrong. but i’m going to call warn again tomorrow to try and see what the deal is..

Offline stlaser

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #212 on: February 11, 2019, 07:29:43 PM »
Sell the warn stuff on eBay and upgrade to Yukon parts....

Sorry, I know I’m not helping but I really like the Yukon parts. Not a fan of warn anything but winches.
Living in the remote north hoping Ken doesn’t bring H up here any time soon…..

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #213 on: February 11, 2019, 07:40:26 PM »
idk what to do i’ve already cut and re grooved 1 stub shaft. who knows if i just shot my self in the foot and cut up a $100 stub shaft to make it work with the warn. i feel like i’m 1 step away from making it work.. but just can’t seem to figure it out. watched a video of a guy do it online and it took 5 min. here i am all afternoon into this thing and it just won’t go. and i mean by maybe 1/16” or so. no by a mile or anything..

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #214 on: February 11, 2019, 08:12:52 PM »
i’m not crazy, am i? no mention of inner snap ring and nothing about the body floating on the shaft. maybe it’ll be business as usual tomorrow/wed when i return..

https://goo.gl/images/gBf5Hi

Offline KensAuto

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #215 on: February 11, 2019, 08:14:52 PM »
You sure that the housing isn't going in far enough? it's not hitting the new bearing nut is it?
I just watched a guy put some on an M37 and he had to "screw" the outer lock ring into place. I've never seen such a hokey design. They used to use a wire type ring that just snapped in easy like.
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Offline KensAuto

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #216 on: February 11, 2019, 08:21:43 PM »
Just watched the vid...same weird outer keychain style retainer. What inner snap-ring you talking about?
Did you take the little gear back off the stub shaft and put it back in the hub before trying to put the hub in?
Here's one pretty much the same...notice how his has too much axle play as well. I wonder if he ran into issues later on (probably).

https://youtu.be/xbb7yGSGyms
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 08:24:05 PM by KensAuto »
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #217 on: February 11, 2019, 08:26:31 PM »
watched that same vid 3 times. it’s apparently the way warn is doing it now. not like factory.

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #218 on: February 11, 2019, 08:30:13 PM »
there’s a small version of that large locking ring that comes with the kit. in the pirate write up, he says the WARN tech told him it goes between the hub body and spindle face. that’s what i did. but apparently it doesn’t. so.. i’ll put it in the outside of the hub between axle snap ring and inner splined section of the hub to take out 1/16” play in the stub shaft (in and out) the passenger side i’ll do without the snap ring spacer next to the spindle face..

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #219 on: February 11, 2019, 08:39:40 PM »
green grease is the pirate write up i was following..



red grease with circle is mine showing where the same snap ring he used is on mine. when it’s installed, it pushes the body of the warn hub out too far, making it impossible to get the spiral locking ring on.



i think that’s what messed me up and subsequently the last 10 posts of this thread. i was following a write up that worked.. but evidentially our wheel hubs have slightly different locking ring groove dimensions. his worked with the inner ring, mine didn’t. and evidentially it’s not needed anyway (the one next to the spindle.. i’m going to cut off and re groove the passenger side just the same way i did drivers to help keep the stub shaft out..)

my apologies for spouting out info and terms/mixing up words at random. i was just a tad worried i has cut up not only a $100 part, but hours and hours of labor undoing said part.

i think i’m alright now though..

Offline KensAuto

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #220 on: February 11, 2019, 08:55:38 PM »
Oh dang, didn't notice you also had a ring installed next to the spindle. I would've said something.

...so that ring didn't pull the axle out far enough either?
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #221 on: February 11, 2019, 08:59:52 PM »
there was no groove. on mine or on the guys on pirate. it was evidentially just supposed to be a spacer or something. idk.

either way, i think i have it worked out. i’ll move that one to the outside of the hub, as a spacer between the hub and snap ring (i’ll do the other side without the spacer at all.) i don’t see it being an issue on the drivers side though. it’ll be a washer then snap ring. instead of just snap ring.

Offline KensAuto

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #222 on: February 11, 2019, 09:14:47 PM »
I see, they're using it as a thrust washer. I don't think moving it will fix your issue to be honest.
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #223 on: February 11, 2019, 09:31:35 PM »
i tried it without the ‘thrust washer’ in the drivers side (cut stub axle) and it worked. large lock ring went in fine. only possible issue after that is the aluminum warn hub doesn’t ‘float’ in and out alittle on the stub axle. im also coming to realize that the instructions from warn may be outdated and/or not accurate for every application..

Offline JR

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #224 on: February 12, 2019, 06:17:17 PM »
Curious, was the ring/spacer then when you took it apart or is this because of the new hubs?
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Offline EL TATE

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #225 on: February 12, 2019, 06:31:53 PM »
I'm sure it's in an earlier post, so I apologize in advance for being lazy, but if you're running 35 spline ford front outers, and they were Yukon's, you'd have two outer snap ring locations on the stub. if it's GM/Dodge, then just the one. but I can't speak for other brands. the hubs Shawn was speaking of are also in Wilsonphil's Ramcharger, which we went through some hiccups on with some fancy stage 8 spindle nuts... he might be of some hands on help here too, but spacers and snap rings will definitely create these issues. there should be an outboard thrust washer before the cap and hex head screws go on too...
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Offline JR

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #226 on: February 12, 2019, 06:52:41 PM »
I just got some of those stage 8 nut sets, hope it wasn't a waste.

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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #227 on: February 12, 2019, 06:56:02 PM »
so this spacer is only on there because of the pirate post.(and i believe it’s actually the outboard snap ring for the stub axle)  it’s the write up i used to modify the stub axle. they are a factory Dana spicer part with only 1 snap ring location. it’s as if they used the same location for the groove as the factory 30 spline, but the factory 30 spline locking hub intervals are 1/4” thicker (inside to out) than the warn hubs. it’s as if warn knows there’s an issue with the setup but won’t just say it outright. make the hub dial threaded cup wider or something. it’s like they’re using  the same dial as the 30 spline kit and just changing the innards. even a snap ring that came in the kit is identical to the 38 year old one i took off the truck..
they even told me that ‘yea,  you may have to just shave off the end of the stub.. that outboard snap ring doesn’t do anything. you don’t even need it.’

i think i’ve got it straight though. according to the install video i found earlier, there is nothing between the warn hub and end of the spindle. so the other side i’ll do with just the hub guts slipped on. cut off the stub shaft just on the outside edge of the old snap ring groove, clean up and regroove right next to the warn hub innards.

sound about right..?

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #228 on: February 12, 2019, 06:56:39 PM »
what are those stage 8 nuts..?

Offline stlaser

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #229 on: February 12, 2019, 07:06:00 PM »
what are those stage 8 nuts..?

Not worth the money I think Phil had mentioned on another thread
Living in the remote north hoping Ken doesn’t bring H up here any time soon…..

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #230 on: February 12, 2019, 07:08:27 PM »
just googled them. i think you’ll be ok. so long as the last little bit doesn’t stuck out past the end of the spindle. that’s what i was

my issue isn’t with the spindle nut. but those are pretty awesome. i’m just running the upgraded dana 60 ones with the pin on the inner nut, holed keyed washer in the middle and a large flat outer but nut.  instead of the old style with the fold over tabs on the keyed washer.

the inside of the aluminum hub body is baixally flat (maybe 1/16” difference between where the inner splined section hits the end of the spindle and where the outer splines contact the wheel hub splines. i’ll see if i can grab a pic. so as long as the spindle nuts stop short of the end of the spindle.. i don’t foresee an issue.

picture of all the issue areas hahah


blue is where the large convoluted twist on lock ring goes
red is what i’m calling the hub guts/innards/inner splined section
green is the inside of the hub dial that is/was contacting the stub shaft. (if seems to be made for the factory 30 spline axles..  :huh:)

Offline JR

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #231 on: February 12, 2019, 08:44:42 PM »
That green bore is super tiny. You think they would have upgraded the kit for 35 spline.
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #232 on: February 12, 2019, 09:08:34 PM »
That green bore is super tiny. You think they would have upgraded the kit for 35 spline.

my point exactly! lol. i think i measured it out to 1.3” or something like that. i’ll check again. and compare to my dads kit that is going on the kaiser (stock 30 spline)

Offline KensAuto

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #233 on: February 12, 2019, 09:23:25 PM »
I know I'm putting the cart before the buggy, but I also saw a thread (on Pirate) about guys having to use a different (thicker) inner wheel bearing race to offset the wheel hub farther away from the spindle, to be able to get those warns to go in far enough. Maybe they were using that inner "thrust" washer as well, who knows at this point....I'm guessing you probably already ran across this but I'll post it anyway.

Post #9 has the part number:

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/1086170-ford-kp-d60-warn-35spl-hub-issues.html
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #234 on: February 12, 2019, 09:40:57 PM »
i saw that also. i would say is go that route, but have already done one side. plus this way i think i can get the large flex seal on the stub shaft to spindle to seat like i’d want (pressure but not smashed) as well as keep all the factory stuff. i think i’ll be ok if i can just get the other side right

you guys think this is an alright fix..?

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #235 on: February 12, 2019, 09:41:53 PM »
had i known this from the start, there’s a real chance i would have just gone either factory 30 or chromoly 30s. but i’m this far in.. gotta find a way out now. lol

Offline wilsonphil

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #236 on: February 12, 2019, 10:00:36 PM »
yes let me find the page and link, I had many problems but basically the WARN lockouts don't play well with 35spline outers and I was using Spicer outers also,  Warn warrantied a set after I totally destroyed them but I went with the Yukon and have not had a problem.   

Offline KensAuto

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #237 on: February 12, 2019, 10:21:37 PM »
i saw that also. i would say is go that route, but have already done one side. plus this way i think i can get the large flex seal on the stub shaft to spindle to seat like i’d want (pressure but not smashed) as well as keep all the factory stuff. i think i’ll be ok if i can just get the other side right

you guys think this is an alright fix..?

Yes, keep going like you are, just saying if the big clip still won't go in, you might have to do the bearing race thing. ...or see if the Yukons will still fit with the mods you've done. haha
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Offline wilsonphil

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #238 on: February 12, 2019, 10:39:34 PM »
Ok go to page 4 of my build, about half way down

http://real-man-truckworks-and-survival.com/index.php?topic=833.150

I ran in to the same problem you are running into I think, the Warn hub caps are not large enough to clear the larger 35spline stubs.  The Yukon hubs are far superior to the Warn units I would NOT run the Warn units.   

I really like the Stage 8 spindle nut system, there is a design issue with them, the stage 8 system is physically larger than the factory nut setup, so what happens is the large tension spring catches on the outer flats of the nuts and the spring stops rotating with the hub.  Then the spring denigrates into dust/grease muck and in my case also takes the hub out buy wearing massive groves in the hubs.

I would ditch the Warn hubs, buy the Yukons and go on with life.   

Offline wilsonphil

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #239 on: February 13, 2019, 12:11:44 AM »
and here go to reply #230

https://ramchargercentral.com/diesel-talk/hello-everyone-my-soon-to-be-ctd-ramcharger/200/

and see what Josh said in post #232 and me on #233

Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #240 on: February 13, 2019, 06:40:37 AM »
my biggest issue/question is the fact that i’ve cut and regrooved a stub axle already. can anyone verify the depth of the part of a yukon hub that rides on the seth. shaft (from spindle to groove)

if it matches the warns, ill order a set ASAP..

Offline EL TATE

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #241 on: February 13, 2019, 10:10:41 AM »
I just got some of those stage 8 nut sets, hope it wasn't a waste.
if you're running Yukon hardcore hubs they are just a hair too large O.D. and grab the inside chewing up spacers and selectors
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Offline EL TATE

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #242 on: February 13, 2019, 10:15:32 AM »
my biggest issue/question is the fact that i’ve cut and regrooved a stub axle already. can anyone verify the depth of the part of a yukon hub that rides on the seth. shaft (from spindle to groove)

if it matches the warns, ill order a set ASAP..

I'll get the drawing from tech and message you shortly. Got any questions about Yukon just let me know, kinda my thing :wink:
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Offline EL TATE

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #243 on: February 13, 2019, 11:08:46 AM »
From my tech dept:
"If he shaved or added a radius to the end of the stub axle our hubs will work fine.

The typical distance from the end of the wheel hub to the inside of the Locking hub selector are as follows:  The Yukon Hubs/ selector has around .160” more clearance to help reduce any contact with the stub axle.

Warn 62672        +.040” Inboard of the wheel hub face ( when we mocked it up 8 years ago.)
Yukon70001       -.120” Offset outboard of the wheel hub face."
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #244 on: February 13, 2019, 11:24:28 AM »
i think those measurements make sense.. and it’s what i’ve found also.

is there any way you can show your tech guys what i’ve done so far and see what they think/confirm that i haven’t FUBAR’d anything and/or would need to replace the stub shaft (which i don’t want to do..) if the hub mechanism itself is the same thickness (where it rides/splines onto the stub shaft..) i won’t have any issues.. i don’t think.

thanks in advance

Offline EL TATE

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #245 on: February 13, 2019, 11:42:38 AM »
i think those measurements make sense.. and it’s what i’ve found also.

is there any way you can show your tech guys what i’ve done so far and see what they think/confirm that i haven’t FUBAR’d anything and/or would need to replace the stub shaft (which i don’t want to do..) if the hub mechanism itself is the same thickness (where it rides/splines onto the stub shaft..) i won’t have any issues.. i don’t think.

thanks in advance

Already shown. what you've done is why we created the greater distance. you will NOT need to re-purchase stubs. are you rocking 30 or 35 spline?
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #246 on: February 13, 2019, 12:10:16 PM »
35 spline.

i was thinking that the inner section of the warn hubs (where it slips over the stub shaft and rests against the spindle were different thicknesses [inboard to outboard] than the yukon hubs)

i only ask bc i’ve regrooved further inboard on the stub shaft.. not simply cut off the end.

(here you can see the old and new snap ring groove and where they sit in relation to the warn inners)


sorry for double posting if you’ve already seen it.   

but i’m glad to know that you/your guys are good with it and i don’t need new stubs. lol. 

what’s the fix for the other side? still re groove but no need to cut the  end off?


Offline JR

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #247 on: February 13, 2019, 12:23:31 PM »
So that is only needed on the warns, not the hardcore?

JR, I just did a set of Yukon hardcores on 35 spline kingpin 60, zero issues.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 06:54:47 PM by stlaser »
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Offline swbhobie16

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #248 on: February 15, 2019, 06:24:52 PM »
the ends needed to be cut off to fit the warns. but the regroove was so that the snap ring holds the stub axle outboard and the inner and outer spindle seals do either jobs. i’ll most like do the same thing to the other side once the yukons show up  :laugh:

i’m currently in a holding pattern waiting on UPS. possible they’ll be here tomorrow. most likely monday. can’t wait to rebutton this axle up.. the right way.  :beercheers:

Offline stlaser

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Re: 3+3 2500
« Reply #249 on: February 15, 2019, 06:56:06 PM »
So that is only needed on the warns, not the hardcore?

JR, I just did a set of Yukon hardcores on 35 spline kingpin 60, zero issues.


JR, I just did a set of Yukon hardcores on 35 spline kingpin 60, zero issues.
Living in the remote north hoping Ken doesn’t bring H up here any time soon…..

 

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