300blk

[TexasRedNeck]

So Bobby posting the Kriss got me thinking about an AR pattern pistol again, a project that has been lurking in the back of my mind for a year.

Those of you who know me know that I favor standardized platforms with interchangeable ammo and parts.  Ar-10, ar-15, Remy 870,glocks,  not withstanding a few novelty pieces (1911s - Ken) and bolt guns.

So here is my dilemma.  I was opposed to AR pistols for years until the “brace” rulings made them very usable and no tax stamp. Sub guns are cute but I really like rifle power if given the choice.  Now that I’m warming to the idea of a very packable AR pattern pistol I know the limitation of the lightweight 5.56 especially at super short barrel lengths and what the loss of velocity does to lethality. That’s why the project has bee gathering dust in my mind for a year. I already have SBRs in 5.56 and a 10 inch barrel is about as short as you can get without compromising the ballistics too drastically.

For years I thought the 300blk was a novelty but after this many years its here to stay.  I like that it uses AR mags and bolts and is really interchangeable with much of the 5.56 stuff I already have. I can also form my own brass from 5.56

Ballistics out of a super short barrel is much better and subsonic still packs a punch.

So I’m debating if I should add 300blk to my inventory and perhaps buy that sig mcx rattler pistol in 300blk.?  I know it’s not an AR per se but aside from form factor what are the pros and cons of adding the 300blk to the stable?


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[Bigdave_185]

Following.  I want one also.


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[KensAuto]

Not interested unless it gets a can.

Sorry not sorry.

[stlaser]

I still think adding another caliber is a bit of a novelty here. If you already have Sbr’s and pistols why? If you want it just for the sake of a new toy I get it. I’d be hard pressed to think there’s an actual hole it would fill. My 2 cents.....

[TexasRedNeck]

Ken. That’s a given. Disappointed you even have to ask.

Shawn that the debate I’m looking for.


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[TexasRedNeck]

Here is some writing on ballistics.  I’m primarily interested in terminal ballistics.  In the urban jungle the likelihood of rolling out of the truck and engaging a target at 100 yards plus is slim.  Really slim.  So intended use is as a subsonic threat reducer(eliminator) from within 100 yards. Likely less than 50.

Terminal ballistics is strong and mag capacity is nice,

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/5-56-nato-vs-300-blackout-ballistics/

When the 5.56 impacts flesh below 2700fps (std 55gn) it just becomes an ice pick and does not do as much damage due to the failure to tumble and fragment. 

Some of the guys here that have been to the sandbox can probably attest to hadjis not going down from short barreled 5.56 rounds which is why they started evolving to the 62,75,77grn rounds.

A 220gn 30 cal projectile is a pretty efficient killer.


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[stlaser]

Why not finish those flats you have laying around? 

[Flyin6]

Here is some writing on ballistics.  I’m primarily interested in terminal ballistics.  In the urban jungle the likelihood of rolling out of the truck and engaging a target at 100 yards plus is slim.  Really slim.  So intended use is as a subsonic threat reducer(eliminator) from within 100 yards. Likely less than 50.

Terminal ballistics is strong and mag capacity is nice,

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/5-56-nato-vs-300-blackout-ballistics/

When the 5.56 impacts flesh below 2700fps (std 55gn) it just becomes an ice pick and does not do as much damage due to the failure to tumble and fragment. 

Some of the guys here that have been to the sandbox can probably attest to hadjis not going down from short barreled 5.56 rounds which is why they started evolving to the 62,75,77grn rounds.

A 220gn 30 cal projectile is a pretty efficient killer.


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Several comments:

a 123 grain .30 cal bullet is a darned good people killer (Unfortunately)

Some of you may recall the story I shared from a SF buddy who shot a bad person twice, then twice again, then twice more over a couple minutes to finally get the job done. All shots impacted in the chest/upper abdomen area.

My .300 with a 10" barrel seems to be a bunch more powerful than my 5.56's

Being able to use all my AR mags for whichever gun(s) and things like bolt inchangerability make having the .300 good.

Having a good running .300 eliminates the need to stock an AK, unless you plan on being invaded by mexican cartel types or the Chinese Army.

[JR]

I like the round, 150grn is a solid hard hitting slug. I got into the 300aac just before the craze hit and built my 1st rifle (that's all I have ).

Nice thing is it was designed for a short barrel and suppressed. Probably as good as a 6.8 with a lighter round for pigs too.

What drew me were the same that drew you TRN, just another barrel is all you need.

[TexasRedNeck]

Here is some writing on ballistics.  I’m primarily interested in terminal ballistics.  In the urban jungle the likelihood of rolling out of the truck and engaging a target at 100 yards plus is slim.  Really slim.  So intended use is as a subsonic threat reducer(eliminator) from within 100 yards. Likely less than 50.

Terminal ballistics is strong and mag capacity is nice,

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/5-56-nato-vs-300-blackout-ballistics/

When the 5.56 impacts flesh below 2700fps (std 55gn) it just becomes an ice pick and does not do as much damage due to the failure to tumble and fragment. 

Some of the guys here that have been to the sandbox can probably attest to hadjis not going down from short barreled 5.56 rounds which is why they started evolving to the 62,75,77grn rounds.

A 220gn 30 cal projectile is a pretty efficient killer.


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Several comments:

a 123 grain .30 cal bullet is a darned good people killer (Unfortunately)

Some of you may recall the story I shared from a SF buddy who shot a bad person twice, then twice again, then twice more over a couple minutes to finally get the job done. All shots impacted in the chest/upper abdomen area.

My .300 with a 10" barrel seems to be a bunch more powerful than my 5.56's

Being able to use all my AR mags for whichever gun(s) and things like bolt inchangerability make having the .300 good.

Having a good running .300 eliminates the need to stock an AK, unless you plan on being invaded by mexican cartel types or the Chinese Army.

First thing I’ve heard from a CW4 that actually makes sense. (Or that I’m smart enough to understand. )

Although sitting here in the dark makes me wonder if I should spend the $ on a thermal night vision

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[JR]

Although sitting here in the dark makes me wonder if I should spend the $ on a thermal night vision

THAT, is a whole nother debate!!

[Flyin6]

Night vision is the cornerstone to winnin' a gunfight that happens at night in my humble opinion.

But assumin' its people you're fightin'

I would place an invisible laser on the gun (visible only under NVG)

Then spend your money on good aviation type nods like the ANVIS-6 or older Litton 909's

That system will allow you to engage targets closer up and evade without being seen.

Downside is if the folks you're in gun play with also have nods.

[TexasRedNeck]

Yeah the pvs14 I have is good but goggles with an ir laser would be better.  Who needs a sight picture when you just follow the line to the target. I really like thermal for detection, especially in the brush or moonless nights.


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[Flyin6]

Yeah the pvs14 I have is good but goggles with an ir laser would be better.  Who needs a sight picture when you just follow the line to the target. I really like thermal for detection, especially in the brush or moonless nights.


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I agree, thermal detection just spoils the surprise. I can't begin to recall all the times I watched some boob sneaking up on the helicopter or hiding while we flew by.

Conversation: I have a haji twelve oclock, three hundred meters
Gunner: Searching
Other gunner: Got him, I'll designate
Laser on
Note that now the haji who hears the aircraft approaching is about to "Hide" but he has one laser and two GAU-17's almost pointing at him.
Other gunner, Hey chief, pull off a little so I can get the shot.
Me: leave him alone, he's not bothering anyone
Then there's a flash of light
Both gunners: Taking fire, he's mine
Pilot pulls up hard going through a thousand AGL in a couple seconds
Gunners: Why did you do that?
Me: The flash was a piece of carbon that came out of the exhaust of lead
Gunners: Ah...
Moment later
Pilot: Contact, one oclock, 500 meters in the rocks
left gunner: Searching
Left gunner: Contact, its a jackal...   ...   ... Sir, can I shoot him... ... ... Please...

[BobbyB]

I have been mulling over building a 300blk in either the SBR or pistol route. It's best role is a suppressed short barrel anyway. But we'll see how this semester of school turns out and how my summer looks.

Thermal: Yea it's cool but eventually it'll get heavy when carrying.
NVGs: Yea it's cool but better have a good helmet with a mount or suffer the agony of a skull crusher.
DBAL / PEQ-15 (Civilian version): Yea they are cool, but if you don't have the NVGs it's not too useful.

Night vision is the cornerstone to winnin' a gunfight that happens at night in my humble opinion.

But assumin' its people you're fightin'


Downside is if the folks you're in gun play with also have nods.

There is truth to that, but also NVG has its drawbacks and limitations. People get too dependent on using technology, technology fails. Someone once asked me what I'd do if someone broke into my apartment and they had NVGs... my answer.. a bright light right in the face. NVG is great, when it's dark. Hit the lights and it's a new story.

[Flyin6]

Bobbee brings up a good point

Nods and light

In our old business the problem was light from fires. And guess what happens quite a bit during gun fights?

A fire anywhere in my FOV would pretty much disable my nvg capability. Heck I'd just throw on the white light and make a normal landing. Like no one noticed the chinook landing in the front yard...

One exception to that is the Litton 909's which can accomodate some of that. I wore them for a couple years and when the minis opened up, I could still see to make the landing or fly around the tower, whereas the ANVIS boys could not.

But that laser is useful for other things...blinding. Green is best for flash dazzle up through permanently blinding someone. Ask Bobby, I'll let him talk about it, but just dazzle the approaching person/vehicle, then wakl up and sort their blinded butts out, one pile for good, one pile for gunshot.

[TexasRedNeck]

Aaaaannnd we’re back....

So despite having ample supplies, all the panic buying got me in the mood.  Knowing that Academy Sports never marks up their firearms or ammo during panic buying I started circling the local academy’s Mon, Wed and Fri morning as that is when their inventory hits the shelf.

Picked up a few pistols some 9mm ball ammo and then got back on the 300blk train.  Bought a complete upper with polished nickel boron BCG and an LPK and grip from AR15Part.com to complete one of a few lowers I have stashed somewhere.  Then although I bought the lowers stripped some 6-8 yrs ago, I faintly recall that the FFL marked the 4473 as a rifle.  Not wanting to file more paperwork for an SBR I started researching again.

I emailed the dealer to see if they have records and can confirm how it was transferred because I didnt want to get charged with building an SBR

Then I ran across a ATF open letter to FFLs from 2008 in which they clearly state that stripped lowers must be transferred as Other since they are neither rifle or pistol, which seems to clear the way,even if the FFL made a mistake, it does not change the law.  Consult your own attorney here disclaimer.

So with a complete upper a stripped lower and LPK I’m on the hunt for a brace.  Supplies are low everywhere but I found a Maxim Defense collapsible brace




http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5f34b9c05a8df/070709-openletter-ffl-gca_0_0.pdf

 So now with the basics in hand or en route, I think I have the foundation.  I was going to use the Law Tactical folding stock adapter, but I’m not sold on that yet and they are out of stock everywhere at the moment. 

Springfield Amory just released a Saint edge PDW and Evac pistol variants.  The EVAC uses the law tactical folding stock adapter and the pantheon Dolos take down barrel system.  Those are out of stock everywhere as well, but it seems like a nice package if you want to wait to get a pistol.  The main drawback is they only offer it in 5.56 at the moment and with a 5.5 inch barrel that’s too much of a ballistic compromise for me.

My original plan was to use the Law Tactical folding stock adapter and the dovolos system but due to availability and I’m going to stick with a fixed barrel and brace for my first build.  I’ll build another with these later to try.  Pistols can be finicky anyway and I don’t want to introduce too many variables until I have a formula that works.

So then I turned my attention to ammo.  5.56 can be cut down and formed into 300blk by taking .40 inch off the cartridge. I have plenty of brass for 5.56 but the dies for the 300 blk for my Dillon 650 are on backorder and it is recommended that you anneal the cases before forming the new .30 caliber neck.  That requires another $500 investment in an annealer.  So in the interim I was able to find 1000 once fired 300blk cases and am bidding on some carbide 300blk Dillon dies on eBay.

I have plenty of powder and projectiles for 30 cal so I can get loading soon when the cases arrive.  Going to use a 210 gn Berger VLD hunting bullet for some sub sonic loads.

For now I’ll spin on the TB arms 30-p1 suppressor when finished and see how it functions suppressed and subsonic.  I don’t intend to load any supersonic ammo for it so its going to be exclusively run with sub ammo and a can.

More to come as the lower gets built.  I’ll try and document the process with pics and descriptions.


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[JR]

Have you seen the HF saw they use to trim cases? Buddy has one and it worked great. I would only use 556 brass though, I hear 223 tends to be thin when trimmed.

I was lucky and got lots of new primed cases and ammo before the 300 was really going. Its the darn bullets that a re crazy, but I am getting pulldowns sometimes.

[TexasRedNeck]

No I haven’t but I have the Dillon rapid trim die already. The motor on the 1200 I have won’t last long cutting that much off so I have to buy the RT1500 which is another $350

Did get my order placed for another 30lbs of powder. Primers are really scarce right now. I stocked up on military small rifle primers years ago and I have a ton of them and large rifle primers and quite a few of large pistol but now that I intend to reload 9mm and some small primer 45 I have to source that.

I tell you what. When this blows over I’m going to buy enough to last two lifetimes.


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[TexasRedNeck]

Well we’re getting closer





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[TexasRedNeck]

And closer

Trying to source reloading dies. Dillon is backordered




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[TexasRedNeck]

Getting stuff laid out for later today when it 101 in the shade and I need a break from working on the outdoor kitchen




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[Bigdave_185]

I feel like you’re missing parts?  Where is your upper?   


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[TexasRedNeck]

I bought the upper already complete. Just have to build the lower and snap it together.


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[TexasRedNeck]

Ok, lets see how this turns out.
I tried to label all the parts for you here.  When you order the lower parts kit, there are no instructions.


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[TexasRedNeck]

We start with the front takedown pin.  This is where stuff can go flying so be careful here.  Insert the spring, then use a pair of needle nose to insert and compress the detent pin.  Use a razor blade to hold it compressed and flush while your start inserting the take down pin.




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[TexasRedNeck]

Then we move to the bolt release
Note that here is where good tools come into play.  These are roll pin punches that have a centering nub on the end to help it stay on the rollpin. Start the roll pin from the butt end of the receiver as the other side does not have clearance for the rollpin punch. Get it started and carefully drive to just before it enters the channel.  Then place the spring and the button and the lever in the slot and then carefully drive the pin through.


 
 




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[TexasRedNeck]

Then on to the mag release lever.  Insert the mag release lever then the spring in the other side along with the release button.  Compress the button and spring deep into the opening and then spin the release lever to thread into the button until the threaded portion is flush with the outside of the button.


Function check


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[TexasRedNeck]

Now we move on to to the trigger group. The most difficult part getting the spring oriented the right way and then getting it all together. You’ll have to play with the safety and trigger and get them seated before putting the pin in the trigger..

So the sear spring is larger on one end than the other.  Here you see it installed incorrectly with the large end up.  If you do this the edges of the spring will catch on the side of the channel for the sear.  That larger end is made to hold that spring in the channel of the trigger so you will need to force it in with a punch to get it down in the slot correctly.  Then insert the sear and install in the lower using the pin. Insert pin from the right side of the lower with the groved end to the outside.



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[TexasRedNeck]

Then the safety.  The detent is inserted from the bottom of the handle boss once the lever is installed.  Then insert the spring in the handle and install the handle and use a little blue loctite on the bolt and tighten




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[TexasRedNeck]

Now on to the hammer.
Note the orientation of the spring.  Again insert pin from right side with grove to the right side.  Note how the hammer spring sits in the grove of the trigger pin to prevent walking. 


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[TexasRedNeck]

The we get the trigger guard installed.

Roll pin to the rear of the receiver and the the spring loaded detent to the front.


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[TexasRedNeck]

Almost home.
I disassembled the Maxim stabilizing brace so I can work with the boss and buffer tube without the brace.  This is where you install the rear take down pin because the detent and spring are held in place by the stock/brace block.

Now just before you tighten the buffer tube install the buffer retaining pin and spring.  The buffer tube covers part of the pin to retain it.
Then insert your buffer spring and buffer


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[TexasRedNeck]

Then reinstall the brace on the tube
Lower complete.  Slap the upper on it and GTG


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[KensAuto]

A buddy of mine just visited Dillon and he said the same. Place was sold out. He ended up borrowing my .223 dies.

[JR]

Nice little writeup tex.

I put tape on the receiver when building so as not to mar it driving roll pins. There are holes in takedown spring pockets, you can compress the spring and pin it, which I like. Forgetting that "sear spring" may let more than 1 round go per pull,,,,,,,,,,,

Do you like the stock grip? I find my finger sits low so I use a grip with a backstrap.

[TexasRedNeck]

I don’t particularly like the stock grip.  I wanted to get it built and then I can adjust a few things.  I like the magpul grip.  I also need some BUIS, I threw an old eotech on it but may just use BUIS and a light/laser.  Not sure yet.  Will depend on its primary mission after I get used to it.

I used to worry about scratches on my “working guns” but after my first training class many years ago, I now usually build them and then throw them on the ground just to get the first scuffs out of the way...lol

I mean, if it was a 1911, I’d cover it in tape and then put it in a glass case when I was finished.....(Ken)

Right now I need some dies so I can load some ammo.  It’s just a hammer at this point


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[JR]

Reminds me of this guy who built this nice big steel work table. First thing he did is grab a hammer and put a dent in it saying it was done now.

Have you seen the OLight stuff? I really like there goodies and they use a USB magnetic charging system.

[BobbyB]

I'm going to need you to hurry up and run some ammo through it. I've been thinking more about getting one of these.

[TexasRedNeck]

I fully expect it to function as advertised. The upper was a high quality piece. I didn’t have “go” “no-go” gauges for 300blk but since I ordered a complete upper with bcg I’m going to assume the best. Having shot a few I can say that they do pack a punch and as much as I’ve been against adding a caliber this one makes a whole lot of sense. Get one while you can.

Dillon dies are seriously back ordered. I found a place that said they had them in stock. I have yet to see a shipping invoice but they did say due to the dem panic that it was taking 7-10 days.

This time I’m not playing. The panic ends and I’m binging. Even on stuff I don’t own or intend to own. I’m gonna be sitting on a huge stockpile when the next panic comes and I’ll be printing money.


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[BobbyB]

I want one, I keep thinking about it. I have friends who own 300Blk and they all love it, but only one reloads. Maybe I'll have to pick their brains more and see if they'll let me shoot their's a little more to decide.

[Flyin6]

I want one, I keep thinking about it. I have friends who own 300Blk and they all love it, but only one reloads. Maybe I'll have to pick their brains more and see if they'll let me spend shoot theirs a little more to decide.

Bobbee, I like mine. I like the bigger boom, but that's from the shorter barrel. I like how it pushes back, more like an AK than an AR. But when I'm shootin' at frogs in the mud, the crater that 150 grain makes compared to my green tip 5.56 sez it all.
Plus, I remember what those third an inch bullets did to the aluminum of those Bell, Sikorsky, McDonnell-Douglas, Boeing, and Aerospatiale helicapeters that got hit. Really a load of energy in that bullet. Wonder what deers think when they get plowed over by 1?

[BobbyB]

Bobbee, I like mine. I like the bigger boom, but that's from the shorter barrel. I like how it pushes back, more like an AK than an AR. But when I'm shootin' at frogs in the mud, the crater that 150 grain makes compared to my green tip 5.56 sez it all.
Plus, I remember what those third an inch bullets did to the aluminum of those Bell, Sikorsky, McDonnell-Douglas, Boeing, and Aerospatiale helicapeters that got hit. Really a load of energy in that bullet. Wonder what deers think when they get plowed over by 1?

What barrel length are you and Charles running?

[JR]

Sure glad I got all my stuff long before this started. Between what I have for 308 and 300 Im good for some time, but more is better.

[Bigdave_185]

I still want but haven’t the cash flow. To many other project takin my $


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[BobbyB]

I still want but haven’t the cash flow. To many other project takin my $


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That's how I'm sitting, except I didn't build a house like you did.

[Flyin6]

10.7"

[KensAuto]

10.7"

I will refrain.  I will refrain. I will refrain.

[TexasRedNeck]

Mine is an 8 inch barrel.  And I just found out my thunderbeast can is 5/8 thread and the AR is 1/2 thread.  Guess I’m getting another can


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[JR]

I have a 9 and a 16, and ALL mags are legal in Ca again!!!!