Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4

[Bigdave_185]

Better start a new thread, burn part 8.1


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[TexasRedNeck]

Nick. I recommended supercharging a while back so I’m on the same page. However just for curiosities sake is there a mpg difference between the super and a set of small parallels twin turbos?  Sized right, which is no small feat, there is very little lag in the spool. I do agree that there is much more complexity which leads to problems like you mentioned long term with leaks etc.

Just curious about mileage given some parasitic loss.


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[JR]

I think everyone but Don was in for the SC from day one.

[Flyin6]

I think everyone but Don was in for the SC from day one.

JR, I liked the SC idea, but first of all, I am bound by some code which I do not fully understand to automatically disagree with any of you for no particularly good reason! 

Actually, I thought the SC would cost a bunch more than the turbo setup and not make nearly as much power.

But apparently, the SC makes a lot of power, and this being a truck, the right now torque is really what this heavy vehicle needs to make it fun and more useable, and mo-betterer at towing.

When the conversation with Nick started, it was like everything just clicked and the light bulb turned on. It suddenly just made sense, particularly with the fact that Nick knows these conversions and has the ability to tune and not take forever.

If I want the truck right and soon, then this is the answer I was looking for.

[Nskaats]

Nick. I recommended supercharging a while back so I’m on the same page. However just for curiosities sake is there a mpg difference between the super and a set of small parallels twin turbos?  Sized right, which is no small feat, there is very little lag in the spool. I do agree that there is much more complexity which leads to problems like you mentioned long term with leaks etc.

Just curious about mileage given some parasitic loss.

There really isn't much of any significant parasitic loss on the blowers.  The newer lobe designs are far more efficient in every way compared to the older models.  The internal bypass valve that opens under vacuum helps tremendously so you're not actually compressing anything, which means almost no resistance.  You can turn one of these blowers by hand with no effort at all.  Even with all of the EPA nonsense and fuel mileage requirements the OEM's have been using these instead of turbos, so that should speak volumes.

Turbos are still great, but there is a tremendous amount of misinformation out there about them.  Many still consider them to be "free" horsepower.  They do create some exhaust restriction and have some parasitic loss. On an application where you want them to spool quickly, the smaller turbine housing doesn't help that.  The biggest lie we see all over the internet is how you can throw a turbo system together on a beer budget and make a billion horsepower.  In reality it's quite costly to do it RIGHT, especially if you need reliable and efficient power.

[Bigdave_185]

I think the key to All the above is ..... reliability. 
The Good lord knows Don is hard on EVERYTHING!


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[Flyin6]

Well, I think this is all done in the spectacle of public scrutiny

I spent, what, half the day with Nick at his shop talking over this project along with about a hundred other things. I can report, he is just like us, in about every way. He has quite a story to tell, but that's for him in his time.

We went back and forth. Duramax?? 8.1 with a big blower? stock 6.0 with a blower?? Stroker with this or that cam and heads and blower.

This is what I think I/we are settling on. First of all, Nick volunteered to just show up at the house and fix the tune in the burb for now, just to get it driveable. That's so I can actually use the truck if I want to do something normal with it.

But the plan is shaping up like this:

He has a 6.2 Gen 4 truck long block sitting in the shop. It has an aluminum block and stronger rods and about the same mileage as my 6.0. It also has those darling L92 square port LS3 type heads on it stock!

So the plan would be to use that engine, and freshen it up. Send the heads off for a freshening and a CNC port job, decking, valve guides/seats and good springs. Bolt those on the 6.2 short block with studs, and install a BTR camshaft. Probably just swap out the oil pan, add a performance oil pump, stock timing chain and the other new bits here and there. Use an adapter for the reluctor wheel, eliminate the cylinder DOD and the VVT with adapters, then top with either a LSA TVS1900 or a maybe a larger 2.9L Magnuson supercharger.

HE would reuse my good 4l80E and converter and I would have a nice 6.0 for sale. He would dyno tune on this very advanced dyno he has which he says is the same one OEM uses to make somewhere from 500-600 RWHP with the nod toward torque and keeping the combo dead safe. He said the 6.2 bottom end would take the supercharger much better.

If I say go, he will order all the parts and get started on the motor. When all the parts get back to the shop, it will be wrench time. He feels it will take 1.5-2 weeks start to finish with me doing some of the work to help. Mostly grunt, cleaning/painting and so forth.

The story gets a little better, I think. Literally right across the parking lot is a powder coat and vinyl wrap shop, a good one. Nick took me over and I chatted with them some, and there is a possibility they may want to get involved in the burb project some. Who knows, since they can do any sort of custom wrap,even a pic of your favorite american flag, I just may have them do up something for the camper project.

So stay tuned, I guess we just started a new chapter in this ever evolving Burb build.

Nick, did I get this more or less correct?

[KensAuto]

Man I haven't seen this thread in a while. I will say, that escalated quickly!

..and Nick, please get it running right, for all of our wellbeing. Lord knows (and he surely does) what Big D would likely do if left alone in his current state of mind. We've heard everything from installing turbos to a Duramax swap here.
I dread the thought of that beautiful Burb going the way of the 'ol Dodge... scattered across the nation, like the ashes of a beloved hero. Naw, we don't want that.
No pressure Nick!

;)

[Nskaats]

I think Don pretty well covered our options.  I feel our best bet to make this thing work would be the 6.2 with a cam ground specifically for this application topped with the 1.9 liter LSA supercharger making 10-12 psi of boost.  A complete fuel system upgrade with flex fuel capability to feed it pump gas or E85 depending on what's available would make sense as well.  The rest of the drivetrain and chassis seems like it's ready to handle whatever we throw at it.

I did reach out to Cam Motion as well to get a recommendation on this particular application.  In many of our projects we end up going with a custom designed cam from Brian Tooley or Cam Motion instead of something off the shelf.  These guys are excellent at what they do.  Brian uses Cam Motion or Comp Cams to grind their cams.  Both Comp and Cam Motion have perfected lobe design that allow us to do some really wild projects.  We used one of my personal vehicles to work with BTR to experiment and develop what is now their off-the-shelf spring kit for high RPM use in LS engines.  My engine uses hydraulic roller lifters, off-the-shelf pushrods, and stock rocker arms turning 8,500 RPM for the past two seasons with absolutely no maintenance or problems at all.

[Flyin6]

So, I just sent a message to two members who had expressed interest in the 6.0 motor.
I'll wait to see what their response is, then offer it publically.

But on the motor thing, I wanted to score the square port heads. With this 6.2 motor, those heads are already there. the send out to port and fix up, finishes that.

The short block is something I have been thinking about. So, I will be starting with a motor with 100K on the rotating assembly. I am asking myself if that makes sense. From what I have read, some people say that although the rods are better in the gen 4 motor, the pistons may be the weak link.

So that begs the question, should I upgrade the pistons to some forged units??? And if I am tearing down to do that, obviously, I would be replacing the bearings. If I had the motor torn down that far, then cam bearings should be replaced as well, I think

Now if I am going through all that business, why not drop a stroker kit in the bottom end which already has the pistons/rings, bearings, a nice forged crank and super strong rods? But not that I am there, I am adding a bunch of cost to the project and did that tip the scales too far and cause me to just stay with the cleaned up 100K short block???

And to further complicate things, why not just tear down and restroke the 6.0 block? It's iron and stronger than the 6.2 aluminum block...?!?!And if I went this direction, all I'd have to do is to purchase a ready made set of LS3 heads and be done with it.

I am presently stuck in this loop...

Lets discuss the merits of going further in the short block.

[stlaser]

Whatever you do just write the check...... 

[JR]

Question  sure you asked, but why port the heads with a blower?

Doesn't really help low end at all and higher up your on boost?

I'd  just get another iron block. Less down time and cheap.

[Nskaats]

So, I just sent a message to two members who had expressed interest in the 6.0 motor.
I'll wait to see what their response is, then offer it publically.

But on the motor thing, I wanted to score the square port heads. With this 6.2 motor, those heads are already there. the send out to port and fix up, finishes that.

The short block is something I have been thinking about. So, I will be starting with a motor with 100K on the rotating assembly. I am asking myself if that makes sense. From what I have read, some people say that although the rods are better in the gen 4 motor, the pistons may be the weak link.

So that begs the question, should I upgrade the pistons to some forged units??? And if I am tearing down to do that, obviously, I would be replacing the bearings. If I had the motor torn down that far, then cam bearings should be replaced as well, I think

Now if I am going through all that business, why not drop a stroker kit in the bottom end which already has the pistons/rings, bearings, a nice forged crank and super strong rods? But not that I am there, I am adding a bunch of cost to the project and did that tip the scales too far and cause me to just stay with the cleaned up 100K short block???

And to further complicate things, why not just tear down and restroke the 6.0 block? It's iron and stronger than the 6.2 aluminum block...?!?!And if I went this direction, all I'd have to do is to purchase a ready made set of LS3 heads and be done with it.

I am presently stuck in this loop...

Lets discuss the merits of going further in the short block.

I've never had any issues with pistons in them.  Even at 1,000 plus horsepower if tuned properly.

The benefit of the 6.2 is the upgraded internals and it already has the better flowing heads that match the blower without any adapters.  It wouldn't hurt to hit it with some new bearings while it's already on a stand.  If you're replacing any hard parts, I'd do pistons and rods as a set since it'll need to be balanced anyway.  And if you're already going to have to have it machined and balanced for a new set of pistons and rods, might as well buy a stroker kit while you're in there.  These things snowball real quick.  I don't see a need for it unless you're preparing to make some stupid power later on.  If you're going to go that far into it, you are probably better off using what you have and just buying the rectangle port heads.

[Nskaats]

Question  sure you asked, but why port the heads with a blower?

Doesn't really help low end at all and higher up your on boost?

I'd  just get another iron block. Less down time and cheap.

Definitely not a necessary step, but they do appreciate it.  The topic came up as Don mentioned having the heads decked and a fresh valve job.  For the deal I get on CNC machining these heads, it's not that much more to do.

[stlaser]

Now, don’t be surprised when Big D comes in here and argues with your recommendations and wants to do the complete opposite of what you suggest. That is perfectly normal, however if he calls you Dave just disregard as it pertains to one of them fellows on here whom shall remain an unmentionable.... 

[Bob Smith]

Well Don will just keep on upgrading. It is not like him to get enough to do the job, more like his trailer build, a bit smaller than the lightweight stuff on the market but weighs a lot more when and if he ever finishes it.

[rpar86]

Turning into another oil change! :)


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[JR]

Don, not going with the flow?

Must be a pilot  thing.

[TexasRedNeck]

Don you still plan on having Nick tune what you have to get it running correctly before you decide on the rest of the project direction?


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[Flyin6]

Don you still plan on having Nick tune what you have to get it running correctly before you decide on the rest of the project direction?


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Yes.

Once I firmly decide which engine and what direction to go, Nick will clean up the current situation, then we will get to the business of making this new powerhouse.

Taking some time to settle on this is helping. Whereas my mind wants nothing less than a forged 408 stroker, big heads and 20 psi pushing 1000 ft lbs, taking time moderates all that

What I really need is the suburban to effortlessly tow the new camper which won't be all that heavy (Bob) and be a pleasure to drive around. So I may just hold my breath, grunt hard and decide on the most practical supercharged combination that makes sense.

I could, BTW, always throw a Texas Speed 408" short block in there later on...

[Nskaats]

I could, BTW, always throw a Texas Speed 408" short block in there later on...

Them's fighting words right there.  If it tells you anything about quality, I have a separate liability waiver for any customer asking me to tune an engine with China Speed parts in it.

You'll also NEVER find a professional engine builder that uses or recommends anything from them.  Lots of reasons for that.

[TexasRedNeck]

Nick. Not to junk up Dons thread but I have a 2018 denali with the 6.2. What’s the recipe for more hp?


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[rpar86]

A blower, Charles! Write the check! ;)


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[Nskaats]

Nick. Not to junk up Dons thread but I have a 2018 denali with the 6.2. What’s the recipe for more hp?

Figure out your goals for the vehicle and a budget you want to work with. Easier to start from there. Could be talking cold sir and a tune or you could be talking big cubic inches and a blower, but it's usually somewhere in between and determined by budget.

[Flyin6]

Update on this truck from the guy who actually owns the stuff this thread is SUPPOSED to be about

DOTs...NCO...Boneheads...Liberals...Democrats...Girlym...

So, anyway, I have the hydroboost unit off. I was going to replace it, but after looking further, have decided to continue with plan #1 and partially rebuild this one. I said it was leaking from the front, but on further examination, I cannot be completely sure. It was definitely leaking from the front, and I do after all have the rebuild kit laying around, so, I think I'll just throw the kit in the cleaned up old unit and see where that goes. Worse case, I pull the thing somewhere in the future and replace it anyway. And the local O'Reilly's manager, Anthony ordered a AC-Delco unit to stick on his shelf for me should I need it

(How cool is that?)

[Flyin6]

It is removed and ready for overhaul

[Bigdave_185]

Well?


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[Flyin6]

Well?


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Well, I put it all back together together.

But

Point taken Dave. The rebuilding of the booster was covered in a thread over in the maintenance section. Following the overhaul, the unit was bolted back in bled and no more leak!

[Nate]

brake booster aside don, did you let nick get a hold of it yet and get it straightened out?!

[Bigdave_185]

brake booster aside don, did you let nick get a hold of it yet and get it straightened out?!

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[Nate]

your picture did not come thru dave

[Bigdave_185]

Emoji didn’t comes through




This will suffice


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[Flyin6]

Oh, Nick...

Nick had an unexpected stay in the cardiac unit in the hospital.

I have texted him several times and didn't talk about the burb. Mostly I just wanted to check on his progress and if asked, maybe help out somewhere. He worked half a day, two days ago and I think today as well. He has asked about when he can do the first tune and just sort the current combo out. I told him this week, but I DO NOT want to overload or stress him.

We'll get to it!

[Flyin6]

And, I believe I am a post or two behind.

I removed the front mount battery to clear up some room for what is to come.

Both batteries were already tuckered out after being run down to zero so many times, so I traded both back in for replacements. The deep cycle is destined for the camper, and the new start bat is already installed in the aft tray. I sorted the electrical connections and simplified things as well.

And this is really strange. I took one battery back to COSTCO, and one to O'reillys and after exchanges and refunds I came out $79 ahead of what I actually spent on them last winter! I tried to point out the mistake, asking how it is possible to get more back than I spent in the first place, but the counter person pointed out the computer did the math. I tipped her some of the difference and went on with a big ole smile

[Flyin6]

Today I took that giant leap forward into the unknown

Made the decision to proceed with the supercharger. Nick Skaat will be doing all of this, my part is to drop it off and pick it up

So we are getting a LSA 1900 supercharger set up for 12 pounds of boost. The truck will also get a new cam which is a custom one off grind that Roger Vinci is in the middle of creating. A tad bit more duration, but not much and more lift, getting close to .600" with 115CL and a ground in 5 degree advance to take advantage of the pressurized environment.

The truck will also get dual fuel pumps, with fat wiring, larger injectors, LSA fuel rail and appropriate plumbing. Radiator style cooling for the air/liquid intercooler. We are going with a larger throttle body and will route the air intake to where the battery once was located. The truck will also be dual fuel compliant afterward running either gas or 85% alcohol.

We are converting the mass air system back to a simpler speed density setup where all of the stock mapping will get a rewrite. Finally it will get an additional wide band O2 sensor in the exhaust.

Parts are on order, being ordered or shipping as I write this. We are looking at bring it in for the teardown the first week in Feb. Hopefully it will start to see dyno tuning within a couple weeks of the start of wrenchin'

 

[Nate]

SSSCCCCRRREEEAAAAAAACCCCHHHHHHHHH.............HARD RIGHT TURN TO WAY OUT RIGHT FIELD!!!!!!

[TexasRedNeck]

I’m a dual fuel machine too. Red meat or whiskey....


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[Bigdave_185]

Duraburb meet window.  Window meet duraburb.  Now jump!!


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[stlaser]

In the words of my good friend Charles “sometimes you gotta be the guy who just signs the check”

 

[JR]

Hmm, supercharger. Think that was mentioned a time or 2, smart man.

[Flyin6]

It's an uncomfortable place for me listening to all you boneheads, but someone said change is good

But after the Obummer thing, the word change scares me about as much as some of youse do...;-)

And for the final act, the long range plan will be to build a 450 cu in stroker bottom end, put square port heads on it, and keep it all boosted with a not too big bump stick and drive it on into eternity...which for someone of my vintage, may not be all that far away...meanin' one of youse could score a pretty "dope" vehicle some day!

That's me thinkin' a-head...!

[Flyin6]

I’m a dual fuel machine too. Red meat or whiskey....


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Keepin it simple...I like it!

[JR]

You may find with the SC and good tune, you don't need a 405 stroker.

[TexasRedNeck]

He said 450. I want to see that.


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[Flyin6]

He said 450. I want to see that.


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We've been talking about it some. Possible but spendy. 408" is cheap, 427 and beyond i need that beefy LSX block. But I intend this Suburban to be a technology leader and a lead the fleet, example of the larger overlander

[Flyin6]

The camshaft arrived from Vinci cams in the Florida. Nick has the injectors, fuel parts, blower and other things ordered, but nothing in just yet.

Shouldn't be too much longer.

[Flyin6]

JR was talking about fuel tanks on his Suburban and made note of the 40 gallon rear tank

That got me thinking

I have 37.5 gallons total capacity with a 31 gallon front (Main) tank and an aft supplemental 6.5 gallon tank

So, I went off looking to see if that 40 might fit my 2002 chassis, and found this link for a 42 gallon rear tank that fits a 1999 Suburban:

 https://www.gastankdepot.com/igm43c-gas-tank-1998-99-suburban-gas-engine.html

That's just one generation older and a couple years different. If that would fit, I could increase from 37.5 up to 73 gallons which could increase my range to almost 200 miles!!!

Now, something I just said may not be true...

But I am going to look into this fuel tank business.

[stlaser]

Who would be driving with this mileage increase? Assuming your better half..... 

[JR]

 

[Flyin6]

Who would be driving with this mileage increase? Assuming your better half..... 

No, she has never driven it, prob never will