Hello Guest

Author Topic: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems  (Read 1534 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 6992
    • View Profile
Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« on: June 05, 2017, 08:24:00 AM »
The events in Europe of the last three months have caused me to rethink my chosen weapon system for EDC.  Typically I CC a Glock 23 (.40, midsize).  With the recent events of vehicular terrorism in the UK and knowing that our past politicians embraced some of the same sick people to come to the US, it is unfortunatley only a matter of time before we see the same in the US.  The seeds were sown long ago in the 60s, but starting with Clinton in the mid 1990s the refugees began to pour in from Muslim countries.  It is now only a matter of time (I estimate 10 years or less) before these types of attacks become commonplace in the US.

http://www.thesocialcontract.com/pdf/twentythree-four/tsc_23_4_gibson_3.pdf
http://cis.org/USMuslimImmigrants

With this in mind, I believe that there is a need for more powerful weapons system on ones person or vehicle.  In Texas you cannot conceal a long gun the way you can a pistol.  In the past, I thought the concept of and AR platform pistol was a novelty and a waste of resources.  Given the recent events and an article I read about AR pistols, I am now embarking on a journey to build an AR PDW pistol.

http://www.alloutdoor.com/2017/05/08/justification-packable-ar15-pistols-vehicles/

I will use this thread as a place to document the build and the decision process associated with parts and as always DOT Bait for the inevitable conversations that ensue.

So here is where my calculus is at the moment.

The foundation will be an AR platform with a very short barrel and a folding buffer tube adapter.  With this set up, I should be able to easily conceal this weapon in the console of my truck and a briefcase or backpack. 

http://www.primaryarms.com/law-tactical-ar-folding-stock-adapter-gen-3-m-ltgen3m

The question at the moment is caliber.  Those that have followed some of my musings in the past know that I have chosen to standardize calibers, platforms and parts to keep it simple.   After some reading, I am wondering if the 300 Blackout might be a better choice for such a weapons system.  My criteria for caliber selection would be:

commercially available and reliable feeding with minimal parts modification
ballistically superior from a barrel length of 7.5 inches or less
ability to penetrate winsheilds and unreinforced automotive panels
minute of scumbag accuracy to 75-100 yards
reliability of feeding
lethality in humans

From that I can tell, the 300BK is superior from short barrels and requires the least amount of weapons modifications to run in an AR platform and keeps wear and tear on parts to a minimum.

With that said I do not have any experience with the 300BK so I am open to other options.

I have many lowers in the safe, so I will start with a LPK and the folding buffer tube adapter.

Would appreciate your perspective and thoughts.
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline wilsonphil

  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 550
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2017, 08:37:12 AM »
TRN, I have just built 2ea of said units trying different items of some of the components you are talking about, I have been kind of swamped at work right now.  Give me a couple days and I will give a report of what sort of works and what dose very well.  BTW that law tactical fold unit works nice and were on sale on Brownells site a couple weeks ago

Offline stlaser

  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 5688
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2017, 09:11:42 AM »
Mine are in 5.56, one I will post up info on is an over the counter manufactured unit that you can get a folding stock for with additional stamp for sbr.

Edit: here you go plr-16

https://www.keltecweapons.com/pistols/plr-16

For the record I have owned several keltec guns, the ones that run someone else's mag have always functioned well for me.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 09:15:25 AM by stlaser »
Unretired, sweeping floor at GLO once again & making coffee.

Offline Flyin6

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 21033
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2017, 11:33:39 AM »
Don't want to blow a hole in your thinking but in 10 years by way of RN's thinking vehicle homicide terrorism will be the least of your problems.

ISIS is using vehicles and knives because that is all they can easily source.

The united states has hundreds of millions of weapons I'm guessing

Tannerite is available everywhere

Hometown terrorists already make bombs, militarized guys can get a whole bunch better

When the acronyms we mil types grew to know so well become common place here a long or short or medium gun won't help much, unless it stops the piece of shrapnel headed for your neck.

For now, keep that G23, but back it up with a good shotgun

Load it like this:
In the chamber: #6 magnum 1st round out gets everyone or their attention
Next two 00 buckshot for when they stop and wonder what to do, shoot two of them
Next two slug or .50cal sabot for the two idiots who ran behind a cinder block wall of got behind a car...shoot them
Next round or two: #6 ...turn and run, learn to swing the shotgun backwards and fire. Keeps their heads down while you're changing addresses
Site owner    IS 6:8  Psalm 91 
NSDQ      Author: Distant Thunder

Online TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 6992
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2017, 12:46:13 PM »
No  worries. I'll build it anyway. Can't CC a shotgun. I'll find a use for it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline Flyin6

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 21033
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2017, 12:55:47 PM »
No  worries. I'll build it anyway. Can't CC a shotgun. I'll find a use for it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'd just mount it in view like I have it mounted in my Silvy

Problem solved...Have shotgun, no laws affected
Site owner    IS 6:8  Psalm 91 
NSDQ      Author: Distant Thunder

Offline EL TATE

  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 2178
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2017, 01:52:16 PM »
No  worries. I'll build it anyway. Can't CC a shotgun. I'll find a use for it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes Please.

 
No  worries. I'll build it anyway. Can't CC a shotgun. I'll find a use for it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'd just mount it in view like I have it mounted in my Silvy

Problem solved...Have shotgun, no laws affected

And yes to this too!
Husband, Father, Gear guy, Patriot.

Offline stlaser

  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 5688
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2017, 02:05:21 PM »
No  worries. I'll build it anyway. Can't CC a shotgun. I'll find a use for it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not even a "super shorty"? Which is an aow?
Unretired, sweeping floor at GLO once again & making coffee.

Offline wilsonphil

  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 550
    • View Profile
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 04:53:55 PM by wilsonphil »

Online TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 6992
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2017, 05:27:33 PM »
 In texas you can not conceal a long gun. And the weapon I visualize is tiny.  QD barrel and folding buffer tube. Probably less than 12 inches


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline stlaser

  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 5688
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2017, 06:34:15 PM »
Why not an ak pistol, preferably one of good quality......
Unretired, sweeping floor at GLO once again & making coffee.

Online TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 6992
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2017, 07:33:03 PM »
How is that different than an AR pistol?  Plus no QD barrel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline stlaser

  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 5688
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2017, 07:44:20 PM »
No buffer tube to deal with, easily to add folding stock if you like. They aren't as finicky & they run when you pull the trigger. Off the shelf readily available .30 cal 7.62x39 ammo (which I'm gunna take a long shot & say you stock already but if not you should) versus expensive .300 blackout.

Don't get me wrong I want to see you build this but I've dealt with problematic ar platforms that were built by yours truly. Sometimes those bugs take a while to work out & have even had them reoccur later. The ak pistol you could have in your possession by weeks end then take your time on the build & working out the bugs. Then you have both which is always better, btw you got them flats built yet?.......  :popcorn:
Unretired, sweeping floor at GLO once again & making coffee.

Offline Flyin6

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 21033
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2017, 08:09:04 PM »
I tell ya, the 12 gage is hard to beat. Only downsides is short range, maybe only out to 150 meters with slugs and of course you can't carry an abundance of ammo

On the other hand, the thing can stop a vehicle, smash through a wall. blast an area with pellets, fire a variety of specialty ammunition, is pretty scary, use once then dispose of bad guy, can kill game, slide over broken shifter handle and continue rowing gears. Insert spatula into the business end and voila' instant emergency canoe paddle, or if you're not into canoes, a bar apple looking fly swatter. Can be used to fix plumbing and smaller oil pipelines, and hippies use it to smoke dope with. Not sure what Hillbillies do with it, maybe use it as a auger, use the slugs when you run into rocks...

I've been spying this one...Decided against the KSG-1 ever since they started blowing up

DP-12
Site owner    IS 6:8  Psalm 91 
NSDQ      Author: Distant Thunder

Offline South_GA_redneck

  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2017, 08:31:44 PM »
Why not an ak pistol, preferably one of good quality......

I have owned a draco pistol for probably 10 years, got a good deal on it and bought it as a novelty/range toy. Like every other century arms AK I've owned it had problems right out the box but with a little mechanical inclination, a file and a half hour time it has run flawless ever since. Even cheap AK's run good with a little tinkering. The round packs more punch than a .556 is cheaper and more readily available than .300  and while both are compact pistols I feel like the AK handles better in tight quarters. Just my .02
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 08:32:51 PM by South_GA_redneck »

Online TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 6992
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2017, 09:02:56 PM »
OK guys, let me level set with you what I am trying to accomplish.

This has to fit in my truck console and easily fit in my brief case or small back pack/carry bag.


Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline KensAuto

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 4959
  • Just call me Bounty.... always absorbing abuse
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2017, 11:07:12 PM »
Don, what kind of psycho came up with a shotgun like that !! I know I pee'd a little just staring at it.

Nice Tex, very nice....mucho smaller than the smallest of scatter guns.
Underpaid and misunderstood since 2014

Offline Flyin6

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 21033
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2017, 11:11:19 PM »
Don, what kind of psycho came up with a shotgun like that !! I know I pee'd a little just staring at it.

Nice Tex, very nice....mucho smaller than the smallest of scatter guns.
It's crazy sure enough!
Pump the handle once to get two shots

Bit spendy coming in at just under $1400

16 rounds

My saiga has a 20 round drum and 10 round mags, but fires faster
Site owner    IS 6:8  Psalm 91 
NSDQ      Author: Distant Thunder

Offline wyorunner

  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2017, 11:39:08 PM »
Stlaser makes some valid points on availability of .300aac, however ive got a friend who we have had a very similar discussion as such is happening right here. So I am for the .300, especially because if you have a boat load of .556 brass (guessing you do) you could spend a little time renecking them all then run them through your progressive once you have a load figured out and have a decent quantity in no time. I'm curious to see what you come up with for brief case ability.

We were looking for it to fit into a smaller pelican case or one of the bags he carries while away. He ended up just going with an 8.5 and a shockwave pistol stabilizer, and chambered in .556 because it is good enough to get out of the cuss, and it was relatively an inexpensive build, plus ammo is available all over.

Another bonus of the .300, from what I've seen and understand it has a wide range of bullet weights you can load up depending on what you want the load to do, such as slow and heavy or fast and light(ish) and many in between.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Online TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 6992
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2017, 11:58:09 PM »
Wyo, thanks. I would not worry about how much ammo I had. My go to rounds will still be 5.56, .45 , 12ga, and .308. I would keep only maybe 1000 rounds of .300 rounds on hand just for this single purpose. Good news is that by buying a 5.56 barrel I can swap back and forth between calibers with only a small investment.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline stlaser

  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 5688
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2017, 01:04:30 PM »
Check this out, I have one in .40 cal & am happy with it.

Removable barrel & stock available in Various calibers now, used to only be 9 & 40 but runs glock mags.....


http://www.tnwfirearms.com/product-p/asrx-cplt-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx.htm

« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 01:07:37 PM by stlaser »
Unretired, sweeping floor at GLO once again & making coffee.

Offline JR

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 7048
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2017, 01:45:47 PM »
Well, delving into this a little. Also have the G23 for firepower/knockdown.

I am also a big fan of the 300aac/blackout. Remember it was designed as an up close round with 9in type barrels and you can reload with handgun/shotgun powder is needed.

For shotgun backup, I like the Keltec KSG. It shoot great, 14 rounds and can be had for well under 1k. With the weight it is easy to do follow ups and it like to be racked hard. Being short you get shoulder it and still turn in a door and imagine get out of a vehicle.

https://www.keltecweapons.com/shotguns/ksg

Another option is the Keltec Sub 2000. It uses glock mags you get the best of both worlds since it folds down and even has a nice case. Plus being light you have a nice carry option when camping/playing.

https://www.keltecweapons.com/rifles/sub-2000

Retired LEO  Lifetime NRA+  Outcast in Calif

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

Thomas Jefferson

Offline stlaser

  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 5688
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2017, 01:56:31 PM »
I had the sub2000 in .40 & hated the trigger. Otherwise it worked pretty well.
Unretired, sweeping floor at GLO once again & making coffee.

Offline stlaser

  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 5688
    • View Profile
Unretired, sweeping floor at GLO once again & making coffee.

Offline longball

  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 542
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2018, 02:34:15 PM »
Saw this recently and thought of this thread. https://www.leotakedown.com/
https://youtu.be/Zjdrb6YquUQ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Online TexasRedNeck

  • punching bag for moderator humor
  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 6992
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2018, 04:59:36 PM »
thanks and thanks for pointing out my build has stalled.....got wrapped up in housebuilding....

still on the radar
Kids today don't know how easy they have it. When I was young, I had to walk 9 feet through shag carpet to change the TV channel.

Joshua 6:20-24

Offline longball

  • Registered
  • **
  • Posts: 542
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2018, 06:58:10 PM »
Hey no problem. I didn?t realize it?d been that long, just remembered the discussion was here somewhere.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Flyin6

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 21033
    • View Profile
Re: Rethinking vehicular and packable weapons systems
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2018, 07:24:31 PM »
That is very interesting!

And wouldn't you know it, I just started another M4 build
Site owner    IS 6:8  Psalm 91 
NSDQ      Author: Distant Thunder