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Offline Flyin6

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Comment on traditional investing
« on: July 20, 2018, 12:29:27 PM »
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I will comment here, but it may not be what you want to hear

I have not seen investments pay off in very many cases

Being truthful, instead of buying into the short term hype of folks having millions of dollars for retirement, most people, and really, most of them including myself were lucky to break even or retain some of the money you saved

These investment companies are smart. They keep one focused in on the current rate of return, or focus on a five year or a ten year return. None of those matter for someone who is saving 40-50 years.

I had accumulated a pretty nice nest egg starting in the early 80's. I was a high risk oriented investor (Definitely the wrong approach in my view) and well set up for the october 1987 black thursday event. I'd say I lost about 100% of my gains for all the years i saved and maybe 75% of the actual money I invested

I noted though, that each and every year, the investment managers were paid from my funds, something I barely noticed while earning 20% on some investments.

The point I really want to make is no matter where you invest in the stock market, you can plan to have regular "adjustments" that cripple you causing you to have to reset and start over. But the managers will already have made their money, so they do not care. If you leave, others will come.

There was the dot com bubble where I lost money...We purchased a larger home and then saved most of the mortgage which I had invested while I worked in Afghanistan as a pilot. On the days the market collapsed again, I was in no position to pull out of the rapidly collapsing investments that this time were killed by the sub-prime real estate collapse. We lost over $300K on that one.

I would estimate I have lost over a million dollars of liquidity over the years, and the only investment which ever maintained its value was precious metals. I did accumulate quite a bit of that, which I liquidated here and there to purchase my farm, some heavy equipment or this and that.

But the silver and gold market are artificially manipulated, so you will really not make any money by buying these metals, but will only keep pace.

at the turn of the 19th century, a custom tailor silk suit would cost you like $15 or an ounce of gold. Today having that suit made will cost you well over a thousand dollars, or about one ounce of gold.

If you invest in any of these 401K's or IRA's managed by any company, you are just sheep fleecing out the beds of the managers.

That is why I created my own investment company, approved by the IRS that I control. I invest in whatever I want and benefit from the tax break. That is likely the only benefit in terms of money made you will ever realize. If you want to invest in a 396 SS Chevelle, have at it. Buy some gold and you will at least have the gold when the market has it's next collapse or adjustment.

Not wishing to rain on anyone's parade, but I have invested for 40-50 years and my experience is a fact, and does not match the hype and sugar coating you get from those who make their money on controlling your money
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Offline cruizng

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Re: Comment on traditional investing
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2018, 08:27:11 AM »
I would have to agree with Don on this one. I am 60 years old and will most likely need to work until I die. That is if I want to sustain any type of lifestyle I am (or wife) is used to. So I am a good one to follow what not to do for investing. I was a higher risk investor also. I always did the 401K that were available and instead of picking a conservative fund I always picked the high growth funds. They go up quick and go down quicker. I didn't monitor the 401k's very closely. Set it and forget it. The one thing that did amaze me when I started to dig into the funds was that most of the fee's were hidden and you couldn't tell how much the investment company was actually taking out. This was back in early 2000's and now it has changed a little but I used to drive by the Fidelity Investments (they target the military) headquarters in Westlake Texas every day. It was huge and beautiful. They had to paid for it from their investors dollars. Whether the stock market went up or down they still took out the same amount of money. They still received sales bonuses even though their funds were down 10%. I had a soccer dad friend that worked there and he definitely had drank the corporate koolaid. He had a hard time explaining to me why "PROFESSIONAL" money managers like Fidelity hires couldn't even beat an index fund average the majority of the time? Why they would hold a stock until it reached rock bottom and then sell? etc... His attempts to answer didn't increase my confidence in them. I still have some funds with them but haven't increased them in 20 years.

So I have lost money in Commercial Real Estate investments. (2006 Texas again). I like most rolled my capitol gains from home sales into a bigger larger homes when I moved for new jobs. Doing that for jobs I wasn't in control of timing and when I got laid off in NJ 2010 I lost over $100K on that house. Plus it took over a year to sell so I wiped out pretty much all of a stock investment college fund for the kids paying bills. But hey I didn't miss a payment of go bankrupt! LOL So still have 826 credit score. Hmmm not sure that is a good thing. My opinion is they got you by the short hairs if you work for a company. You can really only get some tax benefits if you defer tax on 401k's to when you retire and your income is much less. Same with Roth and regular IRA's. You are hoping you have some gains to be taxed at a lower rate when you are older and eligible. Heaven forbid you need to withdraw any of that money. They really whack you.

SOoooooo my advice is to invest in yourself. Learn a new skill or trade but mainly create multiple streams of income. If you work for a company start a small company doing something you enjoy on the side. With the internet these days you can sell anywhere in the world. I have kids 20 and 16. They will go to good colleges but I have pounded into their heads to work for themselves. Network with other people. Make connections. Enjoy life before you are old and ready to retire and then croak off before you can.

I am in the IT world and I have seen so many people become wealthy just by filling a need with software. They started small and developed programs they could sell. They sold the same software it took the same effort to develop once and sold it 100 times with virtually no additional effort other than supporting the software after the sale. Which they get paid for as well in annual maintenance fee's!

So learn Java or some programming language and develop some small program someone needs. Again... do as I say and not do..I hate programming. I tried it and can't do it. It makes me very frustrated when I write a huge program and if I forgot to put a comma somewhere it blows up. So no I manage people that do enjoy it. :)

I am trying to get out of real estate right now.

Key is diversify.
2008 D-Max pretty stock except small lift, tires, and intake.

Offline stlaser

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Re: Comment on traditional investing
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2018, 09:46:03 AM »
Let me first preface this by saying I am 40 years old. So to some just a kid and I have no college degree to back it up. I have a very diverse background in business. The one thing I can say to that is do what you enjoy otherwise you will never succeed or stay with it.

The first thing when it comes to money, it is all Christ's. In business when the wife and I make charitable contributions (this typically went to a family indirectly so as to be anonymous) we received back what I believe is ten fold. It is amazing how that works but when they say give until it hurts they mean it. And do not give based on what you think of said family, we gave based on need alone. I once gave to a family I despised, long story short they were clan affiliated at a very high level which means they were very corrupt. I knew this yet felt compelled to still help. I did so for their children, that was my sole reason for doing what we did. I have no regret.

You may also give and completely forget you did so. This happened to the wife and I right after we were married, we gave to someone to help get their well fixed. It was a lot of money at the time for us. We did it because they had no one else to help them. We bartered the work out over the next year or so being paid back in full. We forgot about it, last year during my visits back to Indiana I ran into them and they reminded me. It took me a bit to recall, they had not forgotten. It was wonderful to recall that and how it helped them. 

Second, do not do what the majority of the population is doing. It's usually a losing proposition, there is scripture to back this up. Probably one piece of advice my Dad gave me that I took to heart, 401k's come to mind.

Third, my best friend was a financial advisor. He became one shortly after filing BK. If you allow someone to manage your money well, that's on you to hold them accountable. I know several dozen, one is extremely smart and also what I believe is a devote Christian. I plan on meeting with him soon, I have never used one before btw. With that stated he comes highly recommended by people I respect. He also employs my children so he can go to bible study, my kids sit for his kids. I've known of him for several years and each and every interaction has been his interview with me unbeknownst to him.

Fourth, read a lot! I probably read more than I should. But being well read allows you to be knowledgeable about many subjects. After the 2008 crash and losing a good portion of my equity, I read a lot. Mainly about the crooks in finance who were held unaccountable. I also dove into all of these concocted schemes finance guys come up with to make money. As they say knowledge is power.

Fifth, working regardless until I die, I plan to never retire 100%. I do not plan to be working for someone else at retirement age. Those two things are honestly goals and nothing more. Again, most want to retire, I do not. See the trend here, it applies to many things.

Sixth, I study people and their actions and consequences a lot. Cheapest way to learn is by some one else's expensive mistakes.

Seventh, if you come out on top in business dealings 51% of the time you win in the end. You will lose a lot.

There you go, my thoughts on money. Be good!
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 09:51:56 AM by stlaser »
Unretired, sweeping floor at GLO once again & making coffee.

Offline Flyin6

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Re: Comment on traditional investing
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2018, 11:38:20 AM »
Good discussion going on here

Well, better framed up, these posts are actually a sharing of wisdom derived from experience.

Experience is the aftermath of what happened long after the sales pitches were forgotten, people managing your money were all promoted, moved on, were fired, or started up their own firms. Experience is the truth you are left with after the rose colored glasses are gone. Another word for truth in this instance is: Reality.

One of the central pillars of the "Great Lie" of investing in any stocks or other intangibles is the multitude of charts that show the steady upward trend of the stock market from some distant point upward toward it's current (temporary) lofty point.

If in retrospect you could back up the train and say, "I'll get in here, and definitely cash out here," if that would be possible, we would all be billionaires.

What really happens is you get in because you are enthralled by the meteoric rise of the market to 3,000, or 30,000 or whatever and away you go. But then in due time after several years or months or decades, North Korea fires a missile, or Iran invades europe, or too many unpaid college loans go default, then the market reacts harshly. Looks bad at first falling some 500+ points at first. You are nervous but propped up by the incessant sales babble of agents paid to lie. So you hang. If you would have cashed out on day one you'd have broken even, but you hang in there and on day two there is a moderate bounce back. You are too ignorant to know this is a script out of wall streets playbook to take more profit ahead of slipping over the clift.
What happens over the next two weeks leaves you wondering what happened. You have lost almost 50% of your value and to cash out seems foolish and besides the laws are set up to keep you corralled into these investment vehicles. For you deer hunters, know how you set the feeder up surrounded by manmade brush walls constructed to concentrate you to make the kill shot easier? Well, what is happening on the floor of the NYSE and your investment company buttressed by the law of the land is the same thing.
You is just in it to make someone else money while taking the sugar pill placebo every year and unwittingly thinking everything is going to be OK. They tell you you need to restructure, but don't really talk much about the fees involved or other unimportant things, but you do it. You do it because you are too busy with a marriage on the rocks, a 16 year old daughter who may be having sex with some guy you don't know or the constant bills and increasing taxes. You have to devote all your attention to just making it week to week while masters of banking ferret out the next plan to "Adjust" the market. Do you really thing things with money of these magnitudes are not managed??? Really? Want to buy a bridge in New York?

But, the market is trending upward and you are hoping for a win. And hey, you started with $2,000 in year one and had $20K in year 10 and now have $34,000 in year fifteen, that's good right? And so it goes, you get drug right up the scale along with the average of companies placed in some metric that somehow determine our wealth. Unfortunately along the way when she gets the report of a tumor in her right breast you go all out to save her, and you do, but having had to dive into the 401K you are back to something under $10K, but hey, you're still late 40's so you can recover, right

OK so I hope you get it by now. Your chances of making money in investments is not good at all. It is a rigged system that takes from the multitudes who are fed the sugar pills to pay the few who manage your money and a couple folks here and there, buts it's more like powerball than systematic dollar cost averaging. My father in law invested his entire life, but cashed out with less than he actually invested. The money lasted him long enough to build a basement on some acres he purchased and put a roof on that. Then it was back to work, pounding nails until Cancer stopped all that for good.

The thing about that upward trend of the stock market is that it does nothing when juxtaposed against inflation. Way back when, that first $2000 could have purchased you a mustang. Now that hard earned $50K will buy you a Mustang and a tank of gas. Yep 50K is a lot of money, just the same as $2K was way back when.

Gold and silver, at least will keep pace with inflation. Land is something you can stand on and as long as you can still afford to pay the taxes, will remain yours. The outhouse you placed on it two decades ago can still be used to relieve yourself, and the flat spot, is still good for a tent, a camper, or a home.

401K's IRA's, and the lot of those things are lies, little more, I am afraid.

But Shawn brought up an interesting point. That is the fact that money belongs to God (Along with everything else) be faithful in tithing and also give generously and sit back and see another kind of financial plan unveil over time. This is a huge part of my testimony. So much so that I wrote an entire chapter telling the story in a book I have yet to publish. Perhaps I may share that with you...
Site owner    IS 6:8  Psalm 91 
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Offline OldKooT

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Re: Comment on traditional investing
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2018, 09:46:06 AM »
My advice to investors is to learn the English language, respect it, reflect on it and realize what it means.

Gambling is gambling...its not investing.


Are you a prepper?  "No, whats a prepper? I am just a mildly OCD farmer"