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Offline Flyin6

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #900 on: March 27, 2021, 09:50:35 PM »
Next up I pulled the ring gear off the carrier.
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #901 on: March 27, 2021, 09:54:05 PM »
I will be retaining the open carrier as per a conversation with the "El-Tate." He could sell me an ARB, but we both sort of felt it is beyond the scope of this Suburban with respect to what I intend to do with it.

I had stopped by Harbor Freight earlier and topped up my gear puller selection. I first tried to pull the carrier bearings off with a 3-jaw, but it failed the very first time I used it. Chinese junk! I can only hope their weapons are built in a similar manner when we go to war against them after Biden tries to hand our nation to them on the sly.
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #902 on: March 27, 2021, 09:55:43 PM »
So I went back to my trusty 2-jaw which I picked up from the Army, from the tool room circa 1975 just before an inspection where we had to dump excess stuff. I am still successfully using those excellent tools!
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #903 on: March 27, 2021, 09:58:58 PM »
I pressed both carrier bearings on at the same time. They slid on without too much fuss.

I think I may have some hybrid kit or something as everything seemed to fit except for the front pinion bearing. It was much smaller than what was needed, perhaps it was for the 8.25" axle and mistakenly added to my kit. The factory bearing and race was perfect so I just cleaned it up to reuse
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #904 on: March 27, 2021, 10:00:01 PM »
I torqued the ring gear on with new bolts and red thread locker to 103 ft/lbs
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #905 on: March 27, 2021, 10:03:12 PM »
Next I pressed the old pinion gear bearing off the gear stem to get the shim. It is just a single piece measuring about .00285 in thickness. I always start with the original shim and go from there. The gear marker paint will tell the story soon enough.

I pressed all that back together and set it aside for now
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 10:03:53 PM by Flyin6 »
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #906 on: March 27, 2021, 10:07:46 PM »
I then removed all the old races from the case, then reinstalled the original front pinion race and new races from Yukon's install kit.

The old seal was removed and the case cleaned once again with brake cleaner. Before starting reassembly, I cleaned the table, trays, floor, vise and tools. Makes for a better assembly process

Installing the races in that case is easily done by using two bearing race installers and a long 1/2" bolt. Just shim the bolt to get the thickness where you want it, then tighten until everything bottoms out
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #907 on: March 27, 2021, 10:10:01 PM »
I reassembled the pinion into the housing as a test fit, but something is off. I am getting some end to end play that shouldn't be there.

When I run into things like this, and I didn't end up blowing it up, or shooting holes in it. I just set it aside and walk away. Better to come at it fresh on another day, than to work through your frustration and possibly do something you will later regret.
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #908 on: March 27, 2021, 10:38:01 PM »
Oops I posted pics in the wrong thread. Sorry Boss moving now.

Also moved the others, so to anyone reading some of Don's previous posts, don't think he's crazy.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 11:34:41 PM by KensAuto »
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #909 on: March 27, 2021, 10:43:10 PM »
Oops I posted pics in the wrong thread. Sorry Boss moving now.
Thanks Ken

I was wondering what all that was about

Then someone started a "show your garage" thread inside my build thread too

Was getting a bit frustrated with trying to keep the real subject alive. Kind of like flying a straight heading while the enemy is shooting flak at you. Although it is bursting all around and doing some damage, you, the pilot try to keep it steady right up to the point of bomb release.
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #910 on: March 28, 2021, 12:53:27 AM »
Don, don't you have a blasting cabinet? Might have saved some time.

You would think with the thousands if millions of these we would have a few options for a traction device besides just the $$$ air locker.

Great work, nice to just swap vs pull down with the truck down.
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #911 on: March 28, 2021, 03:20:34 PM »
Don, don't you have a blasting cabinet? Might have saved some time.

You would think with the thousands if millions of these we would have a few options for a traction device besides just the $$$ air locker.

Great work, nice to just swap vs pull down with the truck down.
My blast cabinet is junk...HF unit that never worked well. I did use it for a home for one of the kid's kats. It had a litter in there. It now holds down part of my workbench top. I was thinking of cankin' the thing and create a metal fab work area out of that corner. The plywood table top would make a nice welding table!
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #912 on: March 28, 2021, 05:29:39 PM »
Don, I got rid of the HF gun and got a gun from TP Tools and it works much much better.  I also made an vacuum system to keep the dust down and added lights.


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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #913 on: March 28, 2021, 08:06:21 PM »
There are all kinds of upgrades for that thing. Just an hour on yt and all your needs are handled.

I now have a diff pickup and gun system, doing lights next.
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #914 on: March 30, 2021, 06:44:03 PM »
Continued on the reassembly today, but ran into a snag...I'll get to that in a bit

New bearing in one of the side adjusters
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #915 on: March 30, 2021, 08:56:30 PM »
 Both side adjusters got new bearings and or races
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #916 on: March 30, 2021, 08:57:43 PM »
And all of that was reinstalled into the case
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #917 on: March 30, 2021, 08:59:31 PM »
The right axle de-coupler/extension got a new bearing and seal
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #918 on: March 30, 2021, 09:02:11 PM »
I removed the small pilot bearing using the old hydraulic-grease trick which had it out of there in just a few whacks, then I pressed a new one into the gear
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #919 on: March 30, 2021, 09:05:52 PM »
Then the pinion gear was installed with a little help from Tate. I ended up with a nice 17 in/lbs preload
« Last Edit: March 30, 2021, 09:06:49 PM by Flyin6 »
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #920 on: March 30, 2021, 09:12:32 PM »
And that was where things started getting goofy.

It takes like a million little adjustments to get the proper backlash on the gear. But here's one of the issues. Normally you measure bacllash against one of the ring gear teeth, but with a split case, I cannot see a way to do that, you can't get to any gear teeth, So I ended up taking my measurement on the side of the driveshaft yoke. Using .007" there just did not feel right. And with the preload already working against freedom of movement, some of the percision is lost since things are not moving very easily. So I can't be sure I had the right clearance. I can say that .005-.007 felt really tight, but .015 to .025 felt about right.

I decided to take a gear pattern check and what I got, I don't even know how to explain. First couple of revolutions I got this:
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #921 on: March 30, 2021, 09:16:14 PM »
That is not centered on the tooth but a bit outboard, but what the heck is that streaking all the way across the tooth???

So I decided to run it backwards with the impact, then forward with the impact. I must have moved the pinion nut because the darned thing nearly locked up.

And the pattern turned into this:

I don't even know what that is except a pending disaster...
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #922 on: March 30, 2021, 09:18:23 PM »
Well, don't use an impact!

Whats the drive side look like?
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #923 on: March 30, 2021, 09:46:14 PM »
Well, don't use an impact!

Whats the drive side look like?
I had some pics but they didn't turn out. You can barely see to make it out. I am wondering how I did it the last time.
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #924 on: March 30, 2021, 09:52:10 PM »
As you know I stay away from those ifs cases but get the pinion depth adjusted then deal with backlash.
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #925 on: March 30, 2021, 09:56:20 PM »
I have two questions

1. What do you mean “ removed using the hydraulic grease method” ? I am not sure what that is or how to use it.


2. Side adjusters?   I have never seen a front differential on one of these open nor do I plan on doing it,  I’ll just stay in my lane for that kind of thing and let someone who knows handle it.   But. What is a side adjuster? 


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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #926 on: March 30, 2021, 10:02:26 PM »
And I am about to do mine! Tate will get a call as I have no parts for the axles, just the housing.
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #927 on: March 30, 2021, 10:07:23 PM »
Dave, in places you can’t get a blind hole puller into you can pack the area behind the bearing with grease then drive a pin the size of the hole in center of bearing thru it. The grease is pushed by pin and drives bearing out towards you


Side adjusters are used to move ring gear towards or away from pinion gear. You screw then in or out and both sides need to be moved same amount after bearing preload has been set in order to maintain that preload
« Last Edit: March 30, 2021, 10:08:58 PM by stlaser »
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #928 on: March 30, 2021, 10:09:26 PM »
I saw that, nice trick!
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #929 on: March 31, 2021, 12:00:33 AM »
Dave, in places you can’t get a blind hole puller into you can pack the area behind the bearing with grease then drive a pin the size of the hole in center of bearing thru it. The grease is pushed by pin and drives bearing out towards you


Side adjusters are used to move ring gear towards or away from pinion gear. You screw then in or out and both sides need to be moved same amount after bearing preload has been set in order to maintain that preload
So when tightening or loosening you are pushing against what? Bearings or the actual differential gear set?  I have read about you guys setting back lash I understand that portion but what are you using to adjust it?


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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #930 on: March 31, 2021, 12:28:40 AM »
Backlash on the IFS is set using the side adjusters, once you have a good gear pattern. Preload is set then using the same.
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #931 on: March 31, 2021, 11:37:40 AM »
I have two questions

1. What do you mean “ removed using the hydraulic grease method” ? I am not sure what that is or how to use it.

You pump the cavity full of grease, then find a suitable bolt, and tape it up until if fits the bore snuggly. Align it over the opening and smash it with a hammer. The pressurized grease will shove the pressed in bearing right out...easy-peasy

2. Side adjusters?   I have never seen a front differential on one of these open nor do I plan on doing it,  I’ll just stay in my lane for that kind of thing and let someone who knows handle it.   But. What is a side adjuster? 

Just like a 14 bolt FF axle has the screw type adjusters on the side to move the pinion in/out, this 9.25 AAM axle does as well. You can see me holding them in my hand as I removed them to rebuild with new bearings/race/seals as necessary. They take a strange tool to move, and that is why I just built my own.


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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #932 on: March 31, 2021, 11:42:36 AM »
Dave, in places you can’t get a blind hole puller into you can pack the area behind the bearing with grease then drive a pin the size of the hole in center of bearing thru it. The grease is pushed by pin and drives bearing out towards you


Side adjusters are used to move ring gear towards or away from pinion gear. You screw then in or out and both sides need to be moved same amount after bearing preload has been set in order to maintain that preload
And just because this all sounds easy it is anything but.
Much closer to a major PITB  you will spend a lot of time doing this and me. at least, departing the procedure wondering if you got it right or junked it all up. Me/this one...At this point I am very uncertain I have anything right just yet, and now that I accidentally tightened, then loosened the pinion yoke not, I lost the crush washer preload, so at a minimum I will need to disassemble back to that point and start again with another nut/crush sleeve, which I believe Tate is already shipping to me.

Did I mention how nice it is to be supported by Tate with us doing all these gear swaps all the time??? Well, it is really nice!
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #933 on: March 31, 2021, 01:33:53 PM »
this is a 2 step gear and needs to be a tighter backlash, .005-.007 is what it actually calls for. I didn't have my spec sheet last night, sorry Don. you need to add .007-.010 pin depth shim thickness; you're way shallow on this pattern. speaking of pattern, a 2 step gear just needs to be in the middle of the tooth, top to bottom of the lands/grooves. heel to toe doesn't matter so much, and your classic football pattern won't show up here; you might get a "pink eraser" trapezoid kinda looking deal, sometimes at a 45* from heel to toe, but as long as it's centered height wise, your fine. here are the specs

Preload 15-22 lb/in of rotating drag w/o carrier installed
backlash .005-.007, yes really that tight

recommended pinion depth starting point .032 which you're under, but factory is not the same ratio, so it's normal to have to adjust. you're on the right path, just get some more shim in there, and use an electric drill to spin the gear, no impact when checking pattern!

backlash measured at the yoke should be devided by 2, so you're shooting for 0.010-.014, you weren't far off the 1st try sir.

go get after it now, i'll wait. :-)
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #934 on: March 31, 2021, 02:17:35 PM »
Pinion preload is without seal also.

Tate, on preload for the carrier bearings, I don't see that. So after you have your good pattern and backlash, how much do you tighten the side adjuster?
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #935 on: March 31, 2021, 04:32:42 PM »
Pinion preload is without seal also.

Tate, on preload for the carrier bearings, I don't see that. So after you have your good pattern and backlash, how much do you tighten the side adjuster?

good catch. backlash gets set, then tighten the ever lovin' piss out of one of the side adjusters. you CANNOT over preload a carrier bearing, but you definitely can under do it.
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #936 on: March 31, 2021, 04:37:36 PM »
Really? All the vids I have seen never address it, but that could be a lot of preload!
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #937 on: March 31, 2021, 05:51:20 PM »
my builders have a 3' breaker with a 3' jack handle that they literally hang off of to preload 9" ford cases. the aluminum needs heavy tension so it doesn't flex under load. the second you put it in gear and hit the gas, the preload will lessen instantly from what it was. tapered rollers can't be overloaded laterally.
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #938 on: March 31, 2021, 06:44:44 PM »
this is a 2 step gear and needs to be a tighter backlash, .005-.007 is what it actually calls for. I didn't have my spec sheet last night, sorry Don. you need to add .007-.010 pin depth shim thickness; you're way shallow on this pattern. speaking of pattern, a 2 step gear just needs to be in the middle of the tooth, top to bottom of the lands/grooves. heel to toe doesn't matter so much, and your classic football pattern won't show up here; you might get a "pink eraser" trapezoid kinda looking deal, sometimes at a 45* from heel to toe, but as long as it's centered height wise, your fine. here are the specs

Preload 15-22 lb/in of rotating drag w/o carrier installed
backlash .005-.007, yes really that tight

recommended pinion depth starting point .032 which you're under, but factory is not the same ratio, so it's normal to have to adjust. you're on the right path, just get some more shim in there, and use an electric drill to spin the gear, no impact when checking pattern!

backlash measured at the yoke should be devided by 2, so you're shooting for 0.010-.014, you weren't far off the 1st try sir.

go get after it now, i'll wait. :-)
Dang, I was close
Getting back at it...
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #939 on: March 31, 2021, 06:50:05 PM »
Well, taking in all the advice (Mostly from Tate at Randy's worldwide) I went back at it with a fresh attitude

First thing I did was to split the case and take a good look at everything inside. The pinion was running at the top of the ring gear face sure enough. I cleaned it all up, then reassembled after applying a fresh coat of gear marking paint. I did this to confirm so I would be sure I had a better start point. Extra work? Yea, probably, but I was either going to get this in there today or haul it off to Cincinnati driveline and drop a few hundred dollars figuring everything out.

Here is what I finally noted. I had to take the case apart just to get a good look at the pattern, And that is exactly what I saw, suspicions confirmed
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #940 on: March 31, 2021, 06:50:48 PM »
So, back to the press and I took it all apart again ending up with this:
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #941 on: March 31, 2021, 07:00:19 PM »
I cleaned up the gears with brake cleaner, reapplied fresh gear marker paint and reassembled this time using a new crush sleeve.

The factory shim was actually just a hair under .0030". I tossed it and placed a fresh Randy's .0030 plus a .0010 so I was now about .0011 deeper into the ring gear tooth than when I started.

First thing I noticed is it all came up to spec much smoother. I was able to come up onto the crush sleeve, then tighten with the electric impact until I got the preload.

Last time it was all notchy and had a "breaking torque" to get spinning that was much higher than the free spinning torque, but not this time. It now breaks crisply at 20 in lbs.

Setting backlash was much simpler too. I fell right into that .014" Tate suggested after just a few tries, and this time the differential actually felt like a well put together unit.

I am getting a coast pattern just a bit north of centering on the gear and a drive pattern roughly the same. Just like Tater explained, I may end up with a strange trapezoidal pattern and I think that is what I have.
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #942 on: March 31, 2021, 07:03:07 PM »
I think it is debatable whether to go further, perhaps adding something like a .002-.003 shim to stick the gear engagement just a tiny bit more toward the base of the tooth, but the Don is calling it G-T-G.

It's a front diff for crap's sake. I will only have to use it a few times to pull Shawn's Jeep off a termite mound, so, ya, I'm going to button the sucker up and slap it in!
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Offline JR

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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #943 on: March 31, 2021, 07:32:52 PM »
Wish the pics focused on the gear vs the case,,,,,,,,,,,,

If you get the drive side solid, the coast can be off a little long as both are centered. Pattern will travel out under load either way.
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #944 on: April 01, 2021, 10:58:06 AM »
from what I can see, you're good to run Don. Ship it!
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #945 on: April 01, 2021, 04:50:56 PM »
from what I can see, you're good to run Don. Ship it!
Rog!
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #946 on: April 03, 2021, 11:12:29 AM »
Starting to collect parts for the powder coater

Shawn's diff cover and the brake dust shields are first up
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #947 on: April 05, 2021, 07:55:04 PM »
Good news: 5 wheels/tires and all the brackets, mounts sway bar, panhard, and everything else back there of substance has been dropped off at the powder coater shop

I picked a nice hammered silver/black pigment for all the underside parts. For the wheels I am going with a flat bronze color that looks a lot like these:
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #948 on: April 05, 2021, 08:00:50 PM »
Bad news: It may take up to 4 weeks to get everything back

So I have a bunch of time to work on this.

I'll install the front diff, then install the rear axle, but obviously not all the way to done

Reprogram the computer

And just maybe tuck in a 40 gal aux tank in place of that 9 gal tank that the factory tucked up in there. I was looking at that. My concept would be to mount the new much larger tank but using all the factory transfer lines/pump/sending units/ magic stuff, just have a larger tank.

Concept of the operation: For highway cruising a 40-50 gal tank would be adequate unless I found a place where fuel is free. But when we bust the trail. I could top up to nearly 80 gallons if needed. I could actually have a long range and even refuel others with say, 5 gal of emer fuel if they ran short, thus extending the range and flexibility of everyone involved.
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Re: Topic: 2002 Suburban 2500 build thread, Part 4
« Reply #949 on: April 17, 2021, 11:05:25 PM »
Got the front diff all buttoned up and ready to install, so it was off to the races getting Shawn's 14 bolt prepped to go back in

First I tore it all down and hauled the wheels and tires away along with a ton of small parts to get coated
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